Politics First Contact

[uuuhhii]

ridiculous and pointless delusion

most people do most stupid stuff motivated by fear

whatever slogan or catchphrase they use as excuse are irrelevant

[ktchong]

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by ktchong

[Skarpen]

9 hours ago, 213374U said:

Yeah. That is why the wealthiest people in the world are also the hardest working. We all know that blacks working mines for 14 hours a day extracting coltan at gunpoint in some ****hole own 80% of the world's wealth, right? Oh, wait, no. It's actually worthless ****s that either inherited most of what they have, learned to game or outright cheat the system to **** everyone else over, or a combination of both.

Sure. Because if you don't swing the shovel it's not work. 

The point is not to work hard it's to work smart and efficient. You can dig a hole with a spoon or with excavator. Which would earn more? Which one is harder work?

Cheat the system? How? Did Bezos cheat the system by providing a service millions are using? How about Uber? Providing a service or product people voluntairly pay for is not cheating the system. It IS the system.

And I don't get the hate towards people who inherited wealth. Isn't that the whole point? To provide your descendants with a better start? Besides the inherited wealth had to be earned at some point in time. It did not magically appeared.

And also I don't see people attacking people who inherited small businesses or other commodities. Where is the magic line between awe "oh, you are still having a bakery that your grandparents started" and "ugh, your parents left you a company"? At which point the jelousy take control and you strt hating someone because their parents were successful?

[Skarpen]

7 hours ago, Maedhros said:

As a word it is quite meaningless when people interpret it so differently yeah.

Socalism to me? Free healthcare and education should be a human right, and something we should aspire to have together. Why not make life easier for all of us if we can? If I were rich I'd gladly pay high taxes to help benefit a system like that, just like I do now with my average wage. If that's "socialism", then socialism sounds more "free" to me than a system that can potentially enslave and cripple you with debt for the rest of your life. I can't say I often feel envy, but rather a strong feeling of wanting everyone to have the same opportunities I've had.

Use the collective to make life better for the individual. Sacrifice some freedom (tax), to gain more freedom (free healthcare/education, long m/paternity leave, longer holidays, etc).

On a sidenote, I also think working hours in pretty much all jobs should decrease. FREEDOM!

You have a weird definition of freedom. By that standard a stray dog is less free than an owned dog. Owned dog have free food, free healthcare and free education. But it also have an owner and it can go out, breed and gets put to sleep at the owner's whim. Having commodities doesn't equal freedom. It gives you more comfort and luxury but there is always a fine print that screws you over at the end.

It sounds nice until put in practice when you realise that free healthcare is garbage and free education is replaced by propaganda centers and that you have no say in how you are treated and what you learn. We went through this not so long ago, why people still have this misguided sentiment?

7 hours ago, KaineParker said:

Those miners just need to grab their bootstraps and start a business. With a small loan of a million dollars they could become the African Jack Ma.

And when the owner does the same is ok? Owner takes a loan and start business taking huge risk but the emplyees cannot do the same? Why? If a 100 miners would took 10k each and pull it together you have the same amount and they could be self employed not having the big bad boss to answer to. They would be the bosses of their own. Apparently people are starting to realize this and we have a rise in collective businesses and freelancers that prefer to be their own boss. And that's fantastic. Why would people want to replace the boss (private owner) with even bigger boss (government) is beyond me.

[Maedhros]

5 hours ago, Skarpen said:

You have a weird definition of freedom. By that standard a stray dog is less free than an owned dog. Owned dog have free food, free healthcare and free education. But it also have an owner and it can go out, breed and gets put to sleep at the owner's whim. Having commodities doesn't equal freedom. It gives you more comfort and luxury but there is always a fine print that screws you over at the end.

It sounds nice until put in practice when you realise that free healthcare is garbage and free education is replaced by propaganda centers and that you have no say in how you are treated and what you learn. We went through this not so long ago, why people still have this misguided sentiment?

It sounds weird to you because you think of freedom as "freedom from constraints", whereas I think of freedom as "the ability to do something" - it's a pretty classic divide in how one interprets "Freedom". Read up on Negative/Positive freedom. Having free education will realistically give poor people easier access to education = more freedom for them.

Free healthcare doesn't have to be garbage, nor does free education. Your analogy is quite good btw, if I were a dog I'd rather be an owned dog with a good owner than a stray dog.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Maedhros

[BruceVC]

16 hours ago, 213374U said:

Yeah. That is why the wealthiest people in the world are also the hardest working. We all know that blacks working mines for 14 hours a day extracting coltan at gunpoint in some ****hole own 80% of the world's wealth, right? Oh, wait, no. It's actually worthless ****s that either inherited most of what they have, learned to game or outright cheat the system to **** everyone else over, or a combination of both.

But, I mean, you're literally going full Gordon Gekko here. So that's probably covered under some twisted version of social darwinism, too. ****, I don't even want to know.

And I was doing so well ignoring this thread...

I dont understand this analogy as an example of inequality, I dont think there are many cases of the actual miners being shareholders in any mine. Therefore no miners generally own the wealth of any mine because the owners are technically global, multinational companies who are all listed companies so shareholders are the owners

And you cannot ever say with certainty who  all of the actual individual shareholders are because no one openly puts there name behind buying retail shares, its done through an intermediary like a stock broker who would know your details for things like dividend payouts but this is confidential unless you publish it 

Then  asset managers, Investment banker, public sector  investment corporations and general investors buy large blocks of shares  and  this is done through a company as a stock investment. So its not as clear and cut as saying  " person x definitely owns the wealth " 

Edited November 13, 2019 by BruceVC

[Chilloutman]

hard true is that not everyone can be CEO, who would do the mining than? Yes sometimes some people get into  their position not by their skills and hard work but by luck. But you still have chance to get there with bit of luck and hard working. Yes most of us will not be lucky as Bezos to find such a huge hole in the marked and be so skilled and driven to expose it. But most of us can start small company and be mildly successful. There will always be some kind of hierarchy until we reach post scarcity society (and maybe even after). As much I don't like greed driven economy its also only model that forced humanity to move forward (so far, i can also see how it can slow down progress on purpose). But Socialist model will always leads to corruption and positions being allocated not on merit but on arbitrary traits like political leaning. Thats why CCCP was unable to compete with west. Thats why South American countries are failing. Socialism can work for robots, not for humans - because ironically we are strongly motivated by 'greed' and lazyness.

 

I am for some form of 'free' health care and education but there always have to be 'better' option without state control. But this is always creating elitism. So pick your poison

 

and again. biggest issue are tax heavens. If those filthy rich people are able to evade paying taxes the majority of 'poor' people gets screwed. I am surprised that there is no push from all contries around globe to just forbid it. It would make such big positive impact on lives of people all around the globe... maybe conspiracy theory?

Edited November 13, 2019 by Chilloutman

[Guard Dog]

16 hours ago, 213374U said:

And I was doing so well ignoring this thread...

[213374U]

8 hours ago, Skarpen said:

Cheat the system? How? Did Bezos cheat the system by providing a service millions are using? How about Uber? Providing a service or product people voluntairly pay for is not cheating the system. It IS the system.

Your hero Bozos has made his fortune by ****ing over his workers, as evidenced by the reports that have surfaced of appalling working conditions inside Amazon, which have led to strikes. He's also abused his dominant market share to strong-arm competitors in what used to be known in a more civilized age as unfair competition -- others such as Google and Microsoft have been hit with billions in fines for comparable practices. He's abused patents and infringed on trademarks. He's consistently dodged taxes (something which Uber is also guilty of) while simultaneously leaning on the state to cover some of his labor costs. But that's all fine and dandy, because as you say, that IS the system*.

Indeed, a system designed to privatize profits and socialize losses. To **** over the underclass and redistribute wealth upwards. It takes a special kind of obtuseness to act so surprised when said underclass take a break in their daily bending over after years of getting the raw end of the deal to start discussing "socialism", the meaningless tag that gets slapped on anything that remotely considers upsetting the balance. The irony is that the "socialism" on offer within the system is anything but and is powerless to change anything because it's just another product controlled by their employers -- one that is as vapid, pointless and devoid of substance as the rest of their lineup.

 

*and of course, TAXES ARE THEFT!!11

Edited November 13, 2019 by 213374U
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[smjjames]

@213374U Skarpen didn't say that Bezos was his hero though, just using it as an example.

Anyways, the public impeachment begins....

[Gfted1]

See! The Freedom Dividend will right all wrongs...balance all scales...and empower the downtrodden. All with a fairly applied VAT! Vote Yang!

[smjjames]

Is the thread extended to the left somehow all of a sudden that makes the scrollbar on the bottom of the brower show up for anybody else? This is the only thread having that issue.... Just on this page actually.

edit: Mentioned it in the Obsidian forum issues and comments thread.

Edited November 13, 2019 by smjjames

[213374U]

Thread has gone full socialism. Enemies of the people everywhere (in this thread), tremble!

[Gfted1]

Are Freedom Dividends socialism?

[smjjames]

4 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Are Freedom Dividends socialism?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Gfted1]

I could do so much more Freedoming with an extra 3k / month. Im shocked...SHOCKED...that people aren't falling all over themselves to get behind this idea.

[Malcador]

15 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Are Freedom Dividends socialism?

 

 

 

 

[Gfted1]

Win / win!

Now we just need one of you guys to come up with a wicked good viral meme to get some momentum behind Yang. We'll never get this particular opportunity for trickle up economy again if we ignore it!

[Malcador]

9 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

Win / win!

Now we just need one of you guys to come up with a wicked good viral meme to get some momentum behind Yang. We'll never get this particular opportunity for trickle up economy again if we ignore it!

Easy, just put his face on the dude from Shadow Warrior and tag it "Who wants some Yang"

[Gfted1]

I had to Google that, but Who wants some Wang? Ok, that slayed me.

[Skarpen]

1 hour ago, 213374U said:

Your hero Bozos has made his fortune by ****ing over his workers.

Never said he's my hero. If he breaks the law then he should be punished by law. Don't blame economy for law enforcers shortcomings.

Oh yes the poor workers who are taken from their homes at the brink of dawn by armed forces and brought before the face of Bezos the Emperor to work for him day and night without a break, food or pay... Oh wait no they don't. They go there voluntairly. They don't have to work there if the pay or conditions don't suit them. And please spare me the "they don't have anywhere else to go". Amazon wasn't always there and if there was no Amazon then there would be 3,4,5 other comapnies. You know why there is no other company? Because workers went in droves to be "exploited" by Amazon. Why? Because it's easy job with good pay that had little to no skills required. Sorry for not being sympatetic for someones own choices he's not happy with.

[Guard Dog]

Well, if we ever go full socialism I have a contingency for that too. Liquidate all my assets, hide the proceeds, quit my job, live off the labor of others. F--k it. Why invest my own money and labor for no return? If it's some kind of Democratic Socialism it will be mostly BAU for me. 

[Guard Dog]

Drag Queen Make an Entrance at Today's Hearings

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Guard Dog

[ShadySands]

29 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Well, if we ever go full socialism I have a contingency for that too. Liquidate all my assets, hide the proceeds, quit my job, live off the labor of others. F--k it. Why invest my own money and labor for no return? If it's some kind of Democratic Socialism it will be mostly BAU for me. 

Well, pretty much nobody is asking for full socialism though so you don't have anything to worry about. They want better social programs, health care, and safety net. 

It's kind of like when you bring up being libertarian and someone will inevitably suggest you want the most extreme full blown libertarian scenario they can think of when that's not really what you want at all.

Edited November 13, 2019 by ShadySands

[213374U]

59 minutes ago, Skarpen said:

Oh yes the poor workers who are taken from their homes at the brink of dawn by armed forces and brought before the face of Bezos the Emperor to work for him day and night without a break, food or pay... Oh wait no they don't. They go there voluntairly. They don't have to work there if the pay or conditions don't suit them. And please spare me the "they don't have anywhere else to go". Amazon wasn't always there and if there was no Amazon then there would be 3,4,5 other comapnies. You know why there is no other company? Because workers went in droves to be "exploited" by Amazon. Why? Because it's easy job with good pay that had little to no skills required. Sorry for not being sympatetic for someones own choices he's not happy with.

I think I've brought this up before, but you are operating on the premise of a completely fictional worker-employer power dynamics. And after going over this topic for what feels like the nth time in ten ****ing years, I am not inclined to educate you. Even less so considering that this is in the intellectually dishonest context of "working smart ≡ making billions of dollars". I'll give you a hint, though: the labor market is NOT a perfectly competitive environment, and monopsonies like Amazon do NOT negotiate on an equal footing.

The beauty of it is nobody needs to put a gun to anyone's head (in first world countries at least). The threat of hunger and homelessness is more than enough, and it tends to minimize the risk of violent revolt compared to other means of coercion.