Politics Generations

[Amentep]

7 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Yesterday she dropped this little gem: " journalist Decca Aitkenhead asked the Clintons if someone with a beard and a **** can ever be a woman, to which Chelsea replied emphatically, 'Yes.' "

Crazy Story from Daily Mail

OK. Someone please explain to me why we ridicule flat earthers and climate change deniers again?

For the less flippant response anyone who is transgender and not openly accepting that fact about themselves, that person may look like any member of their birth sex. Therefore it is possible a transgender woman could have a beard and ****. As I understand it, not all transgender individuals go past hormone therapy for a variety of reasons, and laser hair removal surgery isn't inexpensive and the process of transitioning can take a long time to complete so it may also happen even post realization.

Saying that because a dude has a beard and **** as a reason they couldn't identify as a woman is like saying that a man or woman can't be homosexual because they're married and have children, imo.

Anyhow, the question as reported in the mail is poorly phrased as it lacks specificity. 

As KP says the only thing stopping anyone from going into a bathroom is social rules. My science lab partner in college was a cross dresser and he used women's restrooms when wearing women's clothes because it caused less problems overall.

[Zoraptor]

43 minutes ago, TrueNeutral said:

In unrelated news, apparently Trump thought Turkey was bluffing and would never invade Syria. He also claimed escaped ISIS prisoners were deliberately set loose by the kurds to try to force US intervention.

How can there still be people who support this absolute vegetable?

How could you leave out Napoleon himself being given permission by Trump to ride to the Kurds' rescue. Biji serok Boney! Allah Souriya Boney w Bas!

I'd bet pretty much anything that the "Trump thought Erdogan was bluffing" stuff is rubbish- Erdogan had, after all, already invaded Afrin in Syria and there's no need for a precipitate withdrawal if he thought they were bluffing, only if he was sure they weren't. OTOH the claims about Kurds releasing ISIS prisoners is near enough verbatim what the Turks say; and is directly contradicted by US forces on the ground as well as the Kurds.

[Volourn]

"Why do you think they feel they don't belong? Could it possibly be because society rejects what they are? "

Nope. Again, blacks were literal suicides yet their suicide rates weren't/aren't out of the norm. Hell, why are middle age white men amongst the highest for suicide rates? I think only transgenders and natives tend to have higher rates. Why is that when the claim is white men are on 'easy mode'? Suicide is about the self not about others.

[Maedhros]

The self isn't disconnected from others. Pointing to blacks isn't necessarily a good example. There's always been a "black community", "black culture". A sense of belonging that transpeople didn't have.

[ShadySands]

Now I'm reminded of Dave Chappelle's bit on Anthony Bourdain

Also, the trans comedian he was talking about in his special recently killed herself

 

[Gfted1]

Oof, my man Yang is stinking up the joint. Weve got to swing this election in his favor. With his boon I may be able to retire before I die. Get out there and vote Yang!

[Elerond]

Sometimes messenger just ruins the message

[Volourn]

"There's always been a "black community", "black culture". A sense of belonging that transpeople didn't have. "

That's exactly my point.

 

Again, explain to me, why white  men tend to have  relatively 'high' rates of suicide outside of transgender people or Natives (here in Kanada)? You think with all the white privledge, they wouldn't feel the need to kill themsleves

[Guard Dog]

Exactly what privileges to get for being white anyway? Well.... I did get pulled over for speeding recently and the cop didn't even try to kill me so I guess there is that. 

 

[smjjames]

8 minutes ago, Elerond said:

Sometimes messenger just ruins the message

Initially I though it was maybe a fair point, but overall it's very 'shoot self in foot' and displays the kind of disconnect that rich people have.

 

6 minutes ago, Volourn said:

"There's always been a "black community", "black culture". A sense of belonging that transpeople didn't have. "

That's exactly my point.

 

Again, explain to me, why white  men tend to have  relatively 'high' rates of suicide outside of transgender people or Natives (here in Kanada)? You think with all the white privledge, they wouldn't feel the need to kill themsleves

Well, here in the US (don't know the Canadian data) it's linked to the economic difficulties in rural areas like the job losses and just general economic decay, but I don't think an answer to 'why do white men suicide the most when they are in 'easy mode' (in your words)' exists because it's not that simple.

[Elerond]

26 minutes ago, Volourn said:

"There's always been a "black community", "black culture". A sense of belonging that transpeople didn't have. "

That's exactly my point.

 

Again, explain to me, why white  men tend to have  relatively 'high' rates of suicide outside of transgender people or Natives (here in Kanada)? You think with all the white privledge, they wouldn't feel the need to kill themsleves

In 2017, there were an estimated 1,400,000 suicide attempts (there is no actual records, just estimates from doctors and emergency service people)

In 2017, 47,173 Americans died by suicide

White males accounted for 69.67% of suicide deaths in 2017.

In 2017, men died by suicide 3.54x more often than women.

The rate of suicide is highest in middle-age white men in particular.

In 2017, firearms accounted for 50.57% of all suicide deaths.

White men are especially likely to be gun owners: About half (48%) say they own a gun, compared with about a quarter of white women and nonwhite men (24% each) and 16% of nonwhite women.

About four-in-ten adults (42%) report that there is a gun in their household, with three-in-ten saying they personally own a gun and 11% saying they don’t own a gun but someone else in their household does.

Gun ownership varies considerably across demographic groups. For example, about four-in-ten men (39%) say they personally own a gun, compared with 22% of women. And while 36% of whites report that they are gun owners, about a quarter of blacks (24%) and 15% of Hispanics say they own a gun.

White men are especially likely to be gun owners: About half (48%) say they own a gun, compared with about a quarter of white women and nonwhite men (24% each) and 16% of nonwhite women.

Like the gender gap, the education gap in gun ownership is particularly pronounced among whites. Overall, about three-in-ten adults with a high school diploma or less (31%) and 34% of those with some college education say they own a gun; a quarter of those with a bachelor’s degree or more say the same. Among whites, about four-in-ten of those with a high school diploma or less (40%) or with some college (42%) are gun owners, compared with roughly a quarter of white college graduates (26%). There is no significant difference in the rate of gun ownership across educational attainment among nonwhites.

33% of people over 49 say they own gun compared to 27% among 18-49. 

Suicide attempts with firearm seem to have better "success" rate compared to other methods.

sources: https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/ and https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/

There is most likely correlation with white men's relatively high percentage among "successful" suicides and their much higher gun ownership rate compared to other demographics   

[Zoraptor]

Volo is talking about Kanada rather than the US though. That US stuff does not (necessarily) apply more generally, for example here in NZ the rural population has a lot more guns but near exactly the same suicide rate as the urban population, for all demos collected; indeed, of the tracked methods only deliberate drowning has fewer deaths than via firearms, and those stats don't include open verdict drownings where the question of deliberation is unresolved.

Then again, here young Maori are disproportionately likely to commit suicide with whitey only overtaking them in rate in older demos. PDF source, if interested.

[smjjames]

Exactly, just saying guns are more prevalent doesn't answer the question of why the suicide is happening. As I said though, I only know about the US rates and why, not Canada, which Volo is talking about without any statistical context as to why it's happening in Canada (not so subtle nudge at you Volo).

[Gorth]

No statistics, just wondering, maybe there is a correlation between suicide rates, demographics and whatever stigmas exists in the local communities around such outrageous and alien ideas as "mental healthcare" and "seeking help", rather than always do the acceptable thing and "suck up adversity like a man!"?

 

[smjjames]

Theres always going to be a portion of that, but I really don't know. Kind of hard to statistic that because you can't ask the dead (obviously).

[Gromnir]

suicide is very much an impulsive act. make suicide even incremental more difficult and lives is saved. sure, there are exceptions. got stage 4 cancer sufferer who is in terrible pain every waking moment and who is watching their savings, which would otherwise go to spouse or children, get wiped-out in a pointless fight to prolong agony and nobody is gonna be shocked that such a person is convinced and resolute 'bout ending their existence. however, is a fact suicide is ordinarily impulsive. is not one o' those issues which is actual worth debating.  can educate selves if you wish, but honest is not fodder for argument.

single biggest drop in suicide rate in US history were occuring exact same time as phasing out coal gas ovens. same happened in england with a 30% drop in overall suicide rate direct linked to phase-out o' coal gas ovens. weren't social or economic or mental health. coal gas ovens were convenient. 30%. similar, the recent increase in US suicide rate appears to be direct linked to availability o' opioids as the increase numbers is near same as death by overdose from opioids. kinda a "duh" moment, eh? likewise, states with highest gun ownership rates has highest suicide by gun total, with other factors appearing constant.

firearms, particular handguns, is not just correlative insofar as suicide rates. make more difficult to commit suicide, and typically people do not work harder to kill themselves. delay suicide or make more inconvenient results in less corpses.

now, am not making any comments 'bout mental health and social mores and whatnot-- those is bigger and more complex issues. is not as if by preventing suicide a person's life magic becomes better and am thinking is obvious how whatever were troubling a person before they contemplated suicide is unlikely to disappear just 'cause they couldn't get their hands on a handgun at 3:00AM. am also not gonna get into why it is men is more likely to off selves with firearms than women. regardless, make suicide even a bit more inconvenient by regulating means o' killing self and suicide rate drops. install "jumper" cameras at golden gate bridge? reduce opioid availability? end coal gas ovens?  make handgun purchase/ownership more difficult? 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

28 minutes ago, Gorth said:

No statistics, just wondering, maybe there is a correlation between suicide rates, demographics and whatever stigmas exists in the local communities around such outrageous and alien ideas as "mental healthcare" and "seeking help", rather than always do the acceptable thing and "suck up adversity like a man!"?

 

Take a look at p2,6,7 of the report I linked, it has the data for here at least. Brief tldr; about 40% less likely to commit suicide for the richest (15% of deaths) over the poorest (25%) quintile with consistent trend; men about half as likely to have sought help as women (20% did 80% didn't for men ~40/60 for women) and overall about 1/3 of suicide victims sought mental health help prior to death. So pretty definite little c correlation between wealth and suicide, and men do not seek help compared to women. Pacific Islanders a decent amount less likely to seek help either, but also less likely to commit suicide (PI are a lot more religious than the general population so would seek help from religion a lot more and also would regard suicide as being a mortal sin being one obvious explanation).

Edited October 15, 2019 by Zoraptor

[Elerond]

6 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Volo is talking about Kanada rather than the US though. That US stuff does not (necessarily) apply more generally, for example here in NZ the rural population has a lot more guns but near exactly the same suicide rate as the urban population, for all demos collected; indeed, of the tracked methods only deliberate drowning has fewer deaths than via firearms, and those stats don't include open verdict drownings where the question of deliberation is unresolved.

Then again, here young Maori are disproportionately likely to commit suicide with whitey only overtaking them in rate in older demos. PDF source, if interested.

In Canada First Nations, Inuit, and Metis communities have highest suicide rates. "First Nations people had a suicide rate three times higher, Metis had an estimated rate two times higher, and Inuit communities were found to face a suicide rate as much as 9 times higher than the national average"

Source: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/99-011-x/99-011-x2019001-eng.htm

[ManifestedISO]

caught the debate, though we don't have cable news, it was live on the NYT page

 

still no breakouts, no one undeniably upfront; an aggressive Klobuchar; peace-maker Booker; practiced-message into-the-camera Steyer; Warren besieged but focused; my guy Mayor Pete strong if overly; Harris confident, kind of indignant; Biden assumed his words have the only gravity; Sanders acted as one with the most to lose; Yang, stuck, in his sphere of expertise; and Gabbard, still refusing to condemn Assad, lie-contending American troops were in northern Syria solely to foment a 'regime-change war'

 

more or less united front against the conduct of the president was the upside

[Guard Dog]

Students at Georgia Southern didn't like what a guest speaker said so they burned her book. http://www.thegeorgeanne.com/news/article_27bf3288-eb78-11e9-b386-47de5677b8c7.html

[Zoraptor]

4 hours ago, ManifestedISO said:

and Gabbard, still refusing to condemn Assad, lie-contending American troops were in northern Syria solely to foment a 'regime-change war'

Gabbard is broadly speaking right though 'economic strangulation' is a lot more accurate. OTOH Biden managed to claim that US troops had been fired on by Syrian troops while retreating; while they have been fired on both times it was Turkish troops or their proxies doing the shooting. Indeed, you can literally go on Youtube and watch US and Syrian convoys drive past each other without issue.

I had a bit of a laugh at Yang saying Bing was useless. I mean, it does allegedly have some uses. Pity he didn't quite name Apple as the crappy navigation app.

6 hours ago, Elerond said:

In Canada First Nations, Inuit, and Metis communities have highest suicide rates. "First Nations people had a suicide rate three times higher, Metis had an estimated rate two times higher, and Inuit communities were found to face a suicide rate as much as 9 times higher than the national average"

Source: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/99-011-x/99-011-x2019001-eng.htm

Volo did already mention Natives and transgender as having the highest suicide rates; " white  men tend to have  relatively 'high' rates of suicide outside of transgender people or Natives (here in Kanada)". I won't check, but I'd bet pretty much everything I have that suicide rates are higher for native americans in the US and aborigines in Australia as well- but, white males are also above the average as well, just not as much.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Zoraptor

[Gromnir]

as an aside, suicide by firearms is kinda an overbroad and misleading category as handguns o' specific calibres is the weapon o' choice for suicide, and many countries has limits on handguns. if the typical firearm owned in country A is a .22 lr, then compare to US or even canada is hardly gonna be analogous.

"natives" is also less helpful in US and canada as 'posed to elsewhere. is partial a matter o' size.

in the US, there are 573 federally recognized american indian and alaskan native tribes, which is itself misleading as there is tribes and peoples who is not recognized in spite o' fact they is native. is a curious legal limbo for an indigenous people to not have formal federal recognition in spite o' having thousands o' years o' history and genetics and every other measure one might think is important for delineating tribal recognition. in any event, cultural, social, economic and other factors is gonna be differing from tribe-to-tribe and the shorthand o' lumping all together in one homogenous group is resulting in misrepresentation. 

7 hours ago, ManifestedISO said:

Gabbard, still refusing to condemn Assad, lie-contending American troops were in northern Syria solely to foment a 'regime-change war'

am empathetic to gabbard's kinda pre-9/11 thinking which ignores the democratization o' destruction that has taken place. isolation reduces the US capacity to prevent, react and respond to the ever growing number o' groups which has the capacity to do the US harm. think we are more safe by holing up in bunker america is comforting on some level, but is so 18th century at this point. gabbard wants to bring US military personnel home, and she believes US involvement overseas makes US more vulnerable. is a simplistic view but has much appeal, particular for veterans. can argue validity. we got empathy for such a view, particular from a vet.

on the other hand, is hypocritical and disappointing how gabbard brutal trolled obama 'cause he would not embrace "radical islam" and "islamic extremist labels," but she is doing the most extreme gymnastics to avoid calling out asad for his behaviour.

am personal thinking gabbard's worldview is myopic, but am not offended by such. on the other hand, her behaviour insofar as asad is for us a genuine "red line." 

HA! Good Fun!

[Skarpen]

 Even the people taking it seriously don't take it seriously

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1188102/Extinction-Rebellion-protest-diesel-generator-London-camp-climate-change-environment

Edited October 16, 2019 by Skarpen
Adding pictur

[Gromnir]

8 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Students at Georgia Southern didn't like what a guest speaker said so they burned her book. http://www.thegeorgeanne.com/news/article_27bf3288-eb78-11e9-b386-47de5677b8c7.html

image

saw this story 'bout a week ago and couldn't think o' a good way to respond. 

short o' burning books as fuel to prevent hypothermia, am thinking a book burner voluntarily yields moral high ground. burn huckleberry finn. burn bible. burn quran. burn lolita. heck, burn the unabomber's manifesto would bother us on some level. if you are so angered by a writing you cannot respond intelligent, then you should reflect on such anger and consider what the burning says 'bout the act o' destruction, 'cause such destruction doesn't say anything constructive 'bout the work being torched but it does say much 'bout the one indulging in pyrotechnics.

...

that said, we do not like "white privilege" label. if you claim minorities is disadvantaged in the US, am suspecting most college aged kids would agree, including those at georgia-southern. however, "white privilege" implies that white folks, regardless o' their situation, didn't earn what they has worked hard to aquire. protestant work ethic, though diminished in recent decades, is still a thing here in the US. Americans tend to work more hours and with less vacation than a large % o' the western world, but even if they didn't, suggest white americans hasn't earned what they got, or has exploited others to succeed means you start a conversation 'bout race by potential placing +60% o' the population on the defensive. meaningful dialectic regarding race is elusive, so why make more difficult when simple change in definitions and labels avoids conflict?

have heard the arguments from our family who tell us white americans need "wake up" and realize just how unbalanced is US society, and the only way they recognize the depth o' the inequality is to fundamental challenge preconceptions.  unfortunate, from our pov, "white privilege" polarizes listeners rather than creating reflection or dialogue opportunities. why start a conversation with a label you know is gonna drive some portion o' moderate listeners to become adversarial? 

have watched the baldwin and buckley cambridge debate a few dozen times over the years. much has changed since 1965. sadly, much has remained same. am by nature more inclined to find resonance with baldwin than buckley and am not suggesting "white privilege" is unworthy o' discussion and debate. however, from a practical perspective, those who accuse the 60% o' white privilege is polarizing folks who might ordinarily be open to the notion that unavoidable class handicaps unfair and disproportionate continue to affect large numbers o' Americans, and it polarizes far too many such folks to opposition.  

nevertheless, one would hope a college campus would be a place where in 2019 white privilege could be discussed w/o resorting to the kinda action we dismiss as a trapping o' nazis... or florida man. 

HA! Good Fun!

[smjjames]

4 hours ago, Skarpen said:

 Even the people taking it seriously don't take it seriously

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1188102/Extinction-Rebellion-protest-diesel-generator-London-camp-climate-change-environment

You know someone is going to ask this: Has it been verified by anybody else?