A funny reminder from PoE

[xzar_monty]

I've been playing PoE again, to compare the games, and to check some things out. And there's one thing that comes up again and again, even after the White March DLCs and all the patches the game ever got. It's stunning, actually, a lot worse than in Baldur's Gate II, for instance, which was made over a decade earlier than PoE1.

 

I mean, of course, pathfinding.

 

Here's the funny thing: your most dangerous opponent in combat is not the enemy, it's pathfinding. Your characters sometimes move from A to B via such circuitous routes that they get engaged with enemies who were rather far away and not even in the direction they were supposed to travel to. It's mindboggling.

 

Other than that, PoE is good. But it also reminds me that Deadfire is a thousand times better.

 

Anyone with fond memories of PoE pathfinding?

[algroth]

I've heard this complaint a lot but I don't recall ever being bothered by it. Do you mean in combat or in general? To me Pillars has the IE games automatically beat in this regard inasmuch as you do not have the party breaking up and taking long roads all of a sudden just because two party members got clumped together at a threshold or something. That still frustrates me to no end.

[xzar_monty]

In combat. It never works badly otherwise.

[Wormerine]

Pathfinding worse than BG2? I don't think so. However, breaking engagement can be punishing, and that didn't exist in BG2.

 

Pathfinding was certainly a player had to deal with in PoE1.

[Woopee]

Is it really that much better in Deadfire? Characters pushing each other out of the way is pretty annoying. They'll also just decide to do nothing rather than find a path around if they can't get directly at their target. 

[thelee]

Deadfire pathfinding is mostly better than PoE1 except for one very specific "optimization" they made in Deadfire: ignoring perceived spammy clicks.

 

What this means is that if you tell a character to move to the same "spot" (whatever the unit is for pathfinding), they will re-use their existing route if possible without re-processing anything. Why is this annoying? Because if they take a stupid route (because of some temporary obstacle or something) and you want to tell them to stop being stupid, you can't just re-click the same location and expect them to find the better route. You have to completely give them a different destination or press X to cancel all action, and then click for them to find the smarter route.

[Boeroer]

Is it really that much better in Deadfire? Characters pushing each other out of the way is pretty annoying. They'll also just decide to do nothing rather than find a path around if they can't get directly at their target.

Pushing is actually the best improvement to the movement system in my opinion. That way chars don't get stuck and you can also squeeze a tank through your own line if he accidentally was cought snoring durig an ambush.

 

To compare how it is when chars don't "gently" push each other: give everybody except the moving char a large shield and trigger "the Wall" - and suddenly you start to appreciate those slight pushes during pathfinding.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Boeroer

[gloomseeker]

I've been playing PoE again, to compare the games, and to check some things out. And there's one thing that comes up again and again, even after the White March DLCs and all the patches the game ever got. It's stunning, actually, a lot worse than in Baldur's Gate II, for instance, which was made over a decade earlier than PoE1.

 

I mean, of course, pathfinding.

 

Here's the funny thing: your most dangerous opponent in combat is not the enemy, it's pathfinding. Your characters sometimes move from A to B via such circuitous routes that they get engaged with enemies who were rather far away and not even in the direction they were supposed to travel to. It's mindboggling.

 

Other than that, PoE is good. But it also reminds me that Deadfire is a thousand times better.

 

Anyone with fond memories of PoE pathfinding?

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

Shrinking down the party to 5 in Deadfire really helped.

 

Having combat focus on engagement in PoE1 only made things even worse and definitely more of an issue than in any of the old infinity engine games (especially in combat which is when it matters the most). 

 

The reason why I don't see myself replaying PoE1 over the years has to do with the absolutely horrendous pathfinding in this otherwise great game. 

[xzar_monty]

 

I've been playing PoE again, to compare the games, and to check some things out. And there's one thing that comes up again and again, even after the White March DLCs and all the patches the game ever got. It's stunning, actually, a lot worse than in Baldur's Gate II, for instance, which was made over a decade earlier than PoE1.

 

I mean, of course, pathfinding.

 

Here's the funny thing: your most dangerous opponent in combat is not the enemy, it's pathfinding. Your characters sometimes move from A to B via such circuitous routes that they get engaged with enemies who were rather far away and not even in the direction they were supposed to travel to. It's mindboggling.

 

Other than that, PoE is good. But it also reminds me that Deadfire is a thousand times better.

 

Anyone with fond memories of PoE pathfinding?

 

The reason why I don't see myself replaying PoE1 over the years has to do with the absolutely horrendous pathfinding in this otherwise great game.

 

This is frankly what it comes down to, I must agree. PoE1 has a very good story and is a really good game, but after playing it for a bit more now, it has to be said that pathfinding in combat is absolute rubbish, it's actually difficult to believe it's so bad.

 

What astonishes me the most is that outside combat, pathfinding is faultless. Just take any map and make yourself group move from one corner to the opposite. Then watch their movement on the map and see that they invariably pick the shortest route. In combat, it's nothing like this.

[Boeroer]

That's because in combat chars are not allowed to cross each other's selection circles while in non-combat situations you can perfectly walk "through" other characters. Hence my comment about pushing. It solves the problem that chars get stuck or have to take immense detours which mess up the pathfinding.

 

You don't want to allow "phasing through other people's circles" during combat. You couldn't block movement at all. This pushing is a good solution in my opinion. 

Edited March 11, 2019 by Boeroer

[Wormerine]

Still better than Dragon Age: Origins, with flexible character placement.

[xzar_monty]

You don't want to allow "phasing through other people's circles" during combat. You couldn't block movement at all. This pushing is a good solution in my opinion. 

 

Fully agree. When I first saw pushing in Deadfire, my immediate thought was: wow, well done, Obsidian. That's that problem done with (pretty much).

[rjshae]

Still better than Dragon Age: Origins, with flexible character placement.

 

One of the worse implementations ever, so not really a useful comparison.

[Boeroer]

I liked DA Origins and can't remember such issues. Long time no see though so maybe I simply forgot.

 

I have to add that I seldomly use party AI - so most pathfinding issues will elude me anyway.

[Verde]

I'll raise you Dragon Age 2 with enemies falling from the sky. Take that strategy!

[gloomseeker]

I'll raise you Dragon Age 2 with enemies falling from the sky. Take that strategy!

 

Or cutscenes in DAO that took your entire party away from the positions you had carefully picked to put them all (including your stealthy rogue) right in the middle of the fray.

[FlintlockJazz]

 

I'll raise you Dragon Age 2 with enemies falling from the sky. Take that strategy!

 

Or cutscenes in DAO that took your entire party away from the positions you had carefully picked to put them all (including your stealthy rogue) right in the middle of the fray.

 

That! That very thing summed up the attitude behind DA that did it in for me. The Zevran encounter killed it for me: oh look some random person in the middle of no one has come screaming for help and then legged it off refusing to explain what is going on expecting us to follow her to a group stood around a wagon. I think I'll hold back and assess the situation. Oh look, I can SEE traps lying all over the place. Don't need Admiral Ackbar to tell me what this is. 

*Sends rogue to disarm nearest trap*

*Instead triggers cutscene of character running straight into trap, with villains cackling over their ingenuity while I am sat there thinking this is bull*****

*After trap, get lectured about falliing for traps*

Bioware's attitude has always been: "Screw your roleplaying we have a STORY we want to tell and you WILL play it out exactly how we want it, even when it requires total stupidity on your behalf and contrived bollocks! Oh and then we will lecture you on the things we forced you to do!" Made even worse by the fact that their stories were not that clever to warrant it...

[Verde]

 

I'll raise you Dragon Age 2 with enemies falling from the sky. Take that strategy!

Or cutscenes in DAO that took your entire party away from the positions you had carefully picked to put them all (including your stealthy rogue) right in the middle of the fray.

Haha. I'll reraise you Witcher 2 where 1) time in cutscenes counts towards potion duration (sorry Alchemy builds!) 2) enemies can attack and even kill Geralt immediately after a cutscene, before you can act!

Edited March 13, 2019 by Verde

[rjshae]

I'll raise you Dragon Age 2 with enemies falling from the sky. Take that strategy!

 

The game was the tale of Hawke being retold from Varric's perspective; a rogue and a storyteller. So yeah, the enemies just seemed to keep falling from the sky.

[AeonsLegend]

That's because in combat chars are not allowed to cross each other's selection circles while in non-combat situations you can perfectly walk "through" other characters. Hence my comment about pushing. It solves the problem that chars get stuck or have to take immense detours which mess up the pathfinding.

 

You don't want to allow "phasing through other people's circles" during combat. You couldn't block movement at all. This pushing is a good solution in my opinion. 

The issue here is that it is very unclear which char is or will be blocking your movement once you issue an attack or move command to a certain spot. It's not just people blocking your path, but it may also be terrain. This results into unnecessary disengagement attacks, which can turn a battle into the enemies favor.

[Verde]

 

I'll raise you Dragon Age 2 with enemies falling from the sky. Take that strategy!

The game was the tale of Hawke being retold from Varric's perspective; a rogue and a storyteller. So yeah, the enemies just seemed to keep falling from the sky.

That's an interesting way of justifying it

[AeonsLegend]

 

 

I'll raise you Dragon Age 2 with enemies falling from the sky. Take that strategy!

The game was the tale of Hawke being retold from Varric's perspective; a rogue and a storyteller. So yeah, the enemies just seemed to keep falling from the sky.

That's an interesting way of justifying it

 

Did I miss something? I've never seen that happen in that game.

[Verde]

 

 

 

I'll raise you Dragon Age 2 with enemies falling from the sky. Take that strategy!

The game was the tale of Hawke being retold from Varric's perspective; a rogue and a storyteller. So yeah, the enemies just seemed to keep falling from the sky.

That's an interesting way of justifying it

Did I miss something? I've never seen that happen in that game.

It happened all the time in the console version. They are supposed to be jumping down from rooftops but it looks more like they are jumping down from the sky. It was one of the biggest complaints iirc and looked both hilarious and absurd. Edited March 15, 2019 by Verde

[AeonsLegend]

 

 

 

 

I'll raise you Dragon Age 2 with enemies falling from the sky. Take that strategy!

The game was the tale of Hawke being retold from Varric's perspective; a rogue and a storyteller. So yeah, the enemies just seemed to keep falling from the sky.

That's an interesting way of justifying it

Did I miss something? I've never seen that happen in that game.

It happened all the time in the console version. They are supposed to be jumping down from rooftops but it looks more like they are jumping down from the sky. It was one of the biggest complaints iirc and looked both hilarious and absurd.

 

Console. Lol. <insert facepalm picture

[Verde]

One thing worth mentioning was how different Dragon Age Origins was on console vs. PC due to the tactical camera on PC. I know on PC it's considered one of the better RPGs but honestly on console it was pretty rough. I was never impressed with it. I'd even go as far as calling it a very average RPG.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Verde