Deadfire Polishing Thread

[Phenomenum]

RE: rogue mid-tier abilities sucking

 

Why is Withering Strike 3 guile again? Can't understand the logic there.

 

Agreed. 3 Guile it's too high cost, compared to ability's effects. 2 Guile will be more logical.

[Phenomenum]

Here's all keywords fixes added as a mod: https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/241?tab=files

 

It's easier to test keywords sinergy and catch some inconsistencies, when you see all changes in game.

 

Full list:

 

 

 

Racial:
Battle Forged (Fire Godlike): Added Fire keyword
Silver Tide (Moon Godlike): Added Restoration, Rejuvenation keywords

Chanter:
Dragon Trashed: Added Fire keyword, removed "Randomize status effect" flag (now deals Fire AND Slash damage at the same time)
Ancestor's Memory: Added Restoration, Rejuvenation keywords.

Cipher keywords:

Antipatetic field: Shred >>> Acid, Shred (deals Corrode damage)
Soul Ignition: Shred >>> Fire, Shred (deals Fire damage)
Ringleader: Deseption >>> Deseption, Mind (Whispers of Treason and Puppetmaster have Mind keyword)

Druid keywords:

Wildstrikes: Added corresponding keywords (Frost, Fire, Acid, Electricity)
Cleansing Wind: Wind, Elements >>> Wind, Elements, Rejuvenation (Restores Health)
Nature's Bounty: Restoration >>> Rejuvenation (it's the ONLY druid spell with Restoration keyword, which generally used for Priest restoration spells)
Great Maelstorm: Added missed Frost keyword (also deals Freeze damage)
Aspect of Galawain: Beast >>> Beast, Summon Creature
Conjure Blights spells: Added Summon Creature keyword.

Priest keywords:

In general, most abilities have proper keywords, with a few exeptions, but Priests spells is a mess. Looks like Obsidian wanted
divide Priests subclasses in the same manner as wizards, then they dropped this idea, but spell keywords was not changed.
 
CURRENT rules:

Condemnation - spells with this keyword applies Afflictions and other debuffs. Seems logical.
Punishment - spells with this keyword deals damage - punish enemies. Logical too.
Inspiration - spells with this keyword grants Inspirations to allies of self. Fine.
Protection - spells with this keyword grants bonuses to ally's defences, summon creatures (for protection i presume), prevent death and
reduses hostile effects duration.
Fire / Frost / Electr etc - this keywords used for damage/punishment spells with elemental damage.
 
Seems fine, but a lot of spells drops out of the general order. So here's list of changes:

Blessing: Protection >>> Inspiration (Grants Inspiration)
Holy Radiance: Restoration, Condemnation >>> Restoration, Condemnation, Punishment, Fire (Restores Health, applies debuff, deals Fire damage).
Iconic Projection: Restoration, Condemnation >>> Restoration, Punishment, Frost (Health recovery, deals Freeze damage)
Watchful Presence: Protection >>> Protection, Restoration (Health recovery when Near death)
Shining Beacon: Punishment, Fire >>> Condemnation, Punishment, Fire (Applies debuff on foes, deals Fire damage)
All "Prayers" and "Litanies": Protection >>> Inspiration (Grants Inspirations)
Triumph of the Crusaders: Restoration >>> Restoration, Inspiration (Grants Inspiration)
Champion's Boon: Condemnation, Inspiration >>> Inspiration (Grants Resolyte and Tenacious Inspiration - why is Condemnation here???)
Minor Intercession: Restoration >>> Restoration, Protection, Cleansing (Health recovery, reduces duration of hostile effects)
Ressurection: Restoration >>> Restoration, Protection (Reviving, Health recovery, prevents death)
Sumbol of Wael: Inspiration >>> Inspiration, Punishment, Frost (Grants Inspiration to allies, deals Freeze damage to enemies in AoE)
Blessing of Wael: Inspiration >>> Protection, Condemnation (Grants bonus to all defences for allies, applies debuff on attackers)
Symbol of Eothas: Restoration >>> Protection, Punishment, Fire (Grants bonus to all defences, deals Fire damage)
Light of Eothas: Restoration >>> Restoration, Protection, Cleansing (Health recovery, reduces duration of hostile effects)
Call of Rymrgand: Condemnation, Frost >>> Condemnation, Punishment, Frost (Applies debuff on foes, deals Freeze damage)
Symbol of Berath: Punishment >>> Punishment, Condemnation (applies debuff on foes)
Hand of Berath: Punishment >>> Condemnation (applies debuff on foes)
Cleansing Flame: Condemnation, Cleansing, Fire >>> Condemnation, Cleansing, Punishment, Fire (Deals Fire damage, applies debuff on foes)
Symbol of Magran: Cleansing, Fire >>> Condemnation, Cleansing, Punishment, Fire (Feals Fire damage, applies debuff on foes)
Symbol of Skaen: Condemnation >>> Condemnation, Punishment (Applies debuff on foes, deals damage)
Spiritual Ally: Protection >>> Summon Creature Keyword, Protection (Summon ally for help and protect, attack have the same two Keywords but not ability)
Incarnate spells: Punishment >>> Summon Creature Keyword, Protection, Condemnation (Applies debuff on self, summon allies for help and protect, attack have Summon Creature Keyword but not ability)

Class specific:
Apreading Plague (Berath): Decay >>> Condemnation, Decay (Applies debuffs)
Rusted Armor (Berath): Decay >>> Condemnation, Decay (Applies debuffs)
Sunbeam (Eothas): Fire, Elements >>> Punishment, Condemnation, Fire, Elements (Deals Fire damage, applies debuff)
Fun of Flames (Magran): Fire, Evocation >>> Punishment, Fire, Evocation (Deals Fire damage)
Flame Shield (Magran): Fire, Evocation >>> Protection, Punishment, Fire, Evocation (Grants protection from Fire, Deals Fire damage)
Torrent of Flame (Magran): Fire, Evocation >>> Punishment, Fire, Evocation (Deals Fire damage)
Arcane Veil (Wael): Conjuration, Veil >>> Protection, Conjuration, Veil (Grants bonus Deflection)
Mirrored Image (Wael): Illusions >>> Protection, Illusions (Grants bonus Deflection)
Lliengrath Displaced Image (Wael): Illusions >>> Protection, Illusions (Grants bonus Deflection)
Confusion (Wael): Mind, Illusions >>> Condemnation, Mind, Illusions (Applies affliction)
Arkemyr's Wondrous Torment (Wael): Mind, Illusions >>> Condemnation, Mind, Illusions (Applies affliction)
Arkemyr's Wondrous Torment (Wael): Illusions, Gaze >>> Condemnation, Illusions, Gaze (Applies affliction)
Blessed Harvest (Ghaun): Condemnation >>> Punishment (Deals damage)

 

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Phenomenum

[Boeroer]

Did you keep in mind that stuff like Silver Tide now gains +2+2+2+5 = +11(!) PL from Staff of Thicket Green on a Lifegiver?

 

I really think it was not a design philosophy to put class-specific keywords (Rejuvenation, Restoration, Decay, Shred etc.) on abilities that transcend classes (Silver Tide, Ancestor's Memory...). If Obsidian wished to do that they would have used a more general "healing" keyword I this case.

So... class specific keywords should stay in their class (would be nice if "borrowed" spells like Sunbeam on a Priest would also respect that and remove Elements but add Punishment - like you did). Universal keywords (fire, freeze, shock etc.) can be used all over the place since they were invented for it.

 

Generally I think that keywords are a bit of a mess. There's Decay (class specific) AND Acid/Corrode and Elements and Fire and they all overlap weirdly. But it is what it is. One has to be careful not to put too many keywords onto one ability even if it fits thematically because PL (or other bonuses based on keywords) stacking can become a game breaking thing. Because of that I'm not entirely sure about Cleansing Flame (as example). That's looots of keywords.

 

But all I all that looks much nicer than before.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Boeroer

[Phenomenum]

Did you keep in mind that stuff like Silver Tide now gains +2+2+2+5 = +11(!) PL from Staff of Thicket Green on a Lifegiver?

 

Nope)

 

I really think it was not a design philosophy to put class-specific keywords (Rejuvenation, Restoration, Decay, Shred etc.) on abilities that transcend classes (Silver Tide, Ancestor's Memory...). If Obsidian wished to do that they would have used a more general "healing" keyword I this case.

So... class specific keywords should stay in their class (would be nice if "borrowed" spells like Sunbeam on a Priest would also respect that and remove Elements but add Punishment - like you did). Universal keywords (fire, freeze, shock etc.) can be used all over the place since they were invented for it.

 

Generally I think that keywords are a bit of a mess. There's Decay (class specific) AND Acid/Corrode and Elements and Fire and they all overlap weirdly. But it is what it is. One has to be careful not to put too many keywords onto one ability even if it fits thematically because PL (or other bonuses based on keywords) stacking can become a game breaking thing. Because of that I'm not entirely sure about Cleansing Flame (as example). That's looots of keywords.

 

I have some doubts on this too and agreed with yours. But this is BETA after all, so it's purpose to test changes in game and find some OP's and inconsistencies to make a final list.

 

And a second thought: i don't like keywords for weapons. For now, If you pick up Secrets of Ryme, your Frostcaller starts to penetrate armor better, but only for Freeze damage. This is not right and it happens only becose some peoples whine about it. Generally, i prefer to remove all weapon keywords - all  spiritual weapons should have proper scaling and that's all. For all common weapons we have Qualities enchants.

 

P.S. inconsistency / inconsistencies. I hope, i finally do remember this word))

P.P.S

Because of that I'm not entirely sure about Cleansing Flame (as example).

 

Hmm... Only Punishment keyword was added. Priest class specific... so no harm with that so far.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Phenomenum

[Boeroer]

I generally agree when it comes to "normal" weapons that only have lashes. For weapons which do direct elemental damage I don't know. For example Firebrand is a weapon made of fire and only does burn damage. I think it's totally reasonable to put a fire keyword on that. Same as Minor Blights. I'd also say a Decay keyword on Rot Skulls will make sense. Acid on Cadebald's Blackbow, shock on Fury's natural weapons - that makes sense.

 

Weapons with dual damage like Essence Interrupter don't scream "shock keyword!" to me though. Certainly not Dragon's Dowry and also not Sun and Moon although it fits thematically. The additional effects might be candidates for a keyword but I don't know if it's possible to decouple that.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Boeroer

[Phenomenum]

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/108839-what-even-is-this-bug-unexplained-feature-abandoned-feature/?do=findComment&comment=2144752

 

This thread reminded me about one annoying UI design oversight: we can't use consumables by simply drag it to character portrait / model, like in PoE 1. Nooo, this days, if you want to use some drugs, you must go to Inventory, place consumables you want you use into Quick Items slots for every character, then close Inventory, click on every character's Quick slot to use consumables and then again open Inventory screen to place some scroll or potion in free Quick slot.

 

I always wanted to ask UI designer, who "designed" this ****: "Are you REALLY like it and feel comfortable to use?"

 

There's a two possible solutions:

 

a) Allow to use consumables (drugs and balsams) by dragging it to character portrait (PoE 1 style)

b) Add "Use" button in items description sheet:

 

[Kaylon]

About Dragon Trashed phrase. Currently is random effect: You can deal Fire OR Slash damage, but not both at the same time. I'm pretty sure things get better after removing "Random" flag and adding Fire keyword to attack.

As for pharases PL scaling - i'm doubt that Obsidian will do this. Trough it can be easily fixed by mod, there's a several questions pop up:

 

- If all phrases will be scaled, it requires rebalancing all initial values from scratch.

- Some non-offencive phrases (immunity and resistances, concentration and so on) can't be scaled.

- You need to avoid exploits with Brisk Recitation.

 

It's too complicated and i don't call it "polishing" - it will be a total rebalance of Chanters. So i prefer leave it alone, exept tweaking some values and adding few keywords. (Fire to Dragon Trashed, Resoration/Rejuvenation to Ancestor's Memory - somehow i had missed this flaws during my keywords inspection).

Adding PL scaling to phrases looks perfectly fine for me. Most of them are buffs/debuffs and get just a duration bonus while the damage chants need desperately a boost. Ancient Memory will benefit probably the most but I wouldn't call it OP. As for Brisk Recitation I really don't see what is exploitable.

[Phenomenum]

As for Brisk Recitation I really don't see what is exploitable.

 

I mean that scaled Offensive phrases will be twice powerful. But i forgot about disabled linger for all phrases. My bad.

Anyway, Obsidian definetely won't do this.

 

 

while the damage chants need desperately a boost

 

On other side, you can just tweak values for the same effect. For example, i had switched off "Random" flag on Dragon Thrashed - now phrase deals twice amount of damage (4 base Slash + 4 base Fire), compared to vanilla, + added Fire Keyword so it will gain benefit from Scion of Flame and other Fire keywords buffs.

[Kaylon]

Anyway, Obsidian definetely won't do this.

Obsidian won't implement probably anything from this thread... But it would be nice to have at least a mod adding PL and keywords to the chants.

[Phenomenum]

Obsidian won't implement probably anything from this thread... But it would be nice to have at least a mod adding PL and keywords to the chants.

 

Maybe you're right.

 

Question of the day: anyone could tell me if DoT's have benefit of Keywords +PL bonuses in general?

 

All DoT's implemented as status effects and most of it don't has corresponding damage Keywords (trough some of DoT's has it - Soul Ignition, Berath's Bell Cleancing Radiance, for example, and some others). For example, Ability itself (in abilities.gamedatabundle) has Keyword, Attack (in attacks.gamedatabundle) has Keyword, but corresponding DoT status effect (in statuseffects.gamedatabundle) has no Keyword (Fire, Frost etc).

[Cannabat]

Allow disenchantment of weapon and armor qualities so that we can get our rare limited resource ingredients back. Specifically this is for legendary+ quality enchantments made by the player initially as the ingredients are very rare. Let us explore the high level game system without having to reroll entirely. It should not be cheap, though.

 

Some ideas on how this could work:

 

The weapon or armor is permanently destroyed in the process of removing the kraken eye or whatever. The disenchantment is free.

 

You can pay the same amount (or possibly more?) as it cost to upgrade quality to downgrade it and get the ingredient(s) back.

 

There is a trinket with a certain number of charges that allows for "essence extraction" of the item. Weapons are fully unenchanted when using this and ingredients refunded.

 

Perhaps one of the Dwarven spirits from White March or Abydon could be involved in a quest leading you to a reclusive dwarf hermit forgemaster who can't forgive himself for making weapons that ended lives, but has a desire to fire his forge once again. So he compromises by disenchanting weapons.

 

Or the spirit of a dwarf who died having failed her duty. She was charged to forge a mighty armor and weapon for a member of royalty, but due to some circumstances, was overconfident in her abilities. The armor (or weapon or shield) failed at a critical moment and her kind or queen was fatally injured.

 

She dedicated herself to understanding how to make an armor that could not fail and died without having found the answer. However her research led her to understand how all weapons and armour have weaknesses and imperfections and she is able to spiritually detect those and spiritually explode a weapon, leaving behind only it's essence - an unenchanted, unenchantable, visually identical weapon of normal quality (below fine) and the ingredients used to enchant it.

 

Besides the disenchantment service, she can reskin weapons, armor, accessories, etc by infusing the spirit of the weapon in another at the cost of the first weapon.

 

I haven't read the full thread so consider this another vote if this general idea has been suggested already.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

Nope)

 

I really think it was not a design philosophy to put class-specific keywords (Rejuvenation, Restoration, Decay, Shred etc.) on abilities that transcend classes (Silver Tide, Ancestor's Memory...). If Obsidian wished to do that they would have used a more general "healing" keyword I this case.

So... class specific keywords should stay in their class (would be nice if "borrowed" spells like Sunbeam on a Priest would also respect that and remove Elements but add Punishment - like you did). Universal keywords (fire, freeze, shock etc.) can be used all over the place since they were invented for it.

 

Generally I think that keywords are a bit of a mess. There's Decay (class specific) AND Acid/Corrode and Elements and Fire and they all overlap weirdly. But it is what it is. One has to be careful not to put too many keywords onto one ability even if it fits thematically because PL (or other bonuses based on keywords) stacking can become a game breaking thing. Because of that I'm not entirely sure about Cleansing Flame (as example). That's looots of keywords.

 

 

 

 

My thing is that some classes have a lot of items that boost their keywords, whereas other classes have none. I don't think there's a single item in the entire game that boosts any class-specific Cipher keyword, for example, whereas priests have a large number of +PL keyword items. 

 

So I'd like to see better keywording across the board just so more item builds open up for more classes.

[Jayd]

Here's a modest request: can Boar's Charge on Survivor's Tusks be per encounter instead of per rest? It is not nearly strong enough to be per rest, and the change would bring it in line with Staelgar's Lunge on Slayer's Claw.

 

I imagine it's an easy change to make, too.

[Verde]

And they def need to change Stag Carnage to a passive. It's a hilariously underpowered active.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Verde

[Phenomenum]

I did some additional tests to be sure that any keyword changes may be implemented with 0 undesired side effects.

 

So now i just waiting for some consensus about final keywords list.

Edited March 10, 2019 by Phenomenum

[Kaylon]

I did some additional tests to be sure that any keyword changes way be implemented with 0 undesired side effects.

 

So now i just waiting for some consensus about final keywords list.

Dragon Leap has the Fire keyword?

[Phenomenum]

Dragon Leap has the Fire keyword?

 

Yes. Not ability itself but an attack. I can add it to ability, but it will be just a cosmetic - players will always see this.

[Phenomenum]

Allow disenchantment of weapon and armor qualities so that we can get our rare limited resource ingredients back. Specifically this is for legendary+ quality enchantments made by the player initially as the ingredients are very rare. Let us explore the high level game system without having to reroll entirely. It should not be cheap, though.

 

Some ideas on how this could work:

 

The weapon or armor is permanently destroyed in the process of removing the kraken eye or whatever. The disenchantment is free.

 

You can pay the same amount (or possibly more?) as it cost to upgrade quality to downgrade it and get the ingredient(s) back.

 

There is a trinket with a certain number of charges that allows for "essence extraction" of the item. Weapons are fully unenchanted when using this and ingredients refunded.

 

Perhaps one of the Dwarven spirits from White March or Abydon could be involved in a quest leading you to a reclusive dwarf hermit forgemaster who can't forgive himself for making weapons that ended lives, but has a desire to fire his forge once again. So he compromises by disenchanting weapons.

 

Or the spirit of a dwarf who died having failed her duty. She was charged to forge a mighty armor and weapon for a member of royalty, but due to some circumstances, was overconfident in her abilities. The armor (or weapon or shield) failed at a critical moment and her kind or queen was fatally injured.

 

She dedicated herself to understanding how to make an armor that could not fail and died without having found the answer. However her research led her to understand how all weapons and armour have weaknesses and imperfections and she is able to spiritually detect those and spiritually explode a weapon, leaving behind only it's essence - an unenchanted, unenchantable, visually identical weapon of normal quality (below fine) and the ingredients used to enchant it.

 

Besides the disenchantment service, she can reskin weapons, armor, accessories, etc by infusing the spirit of the weapon in another at the cost of the first weapon.

 

I haven't read the full thread so consider this another vote if this general idea has been suggested already.

 

We have a list of suggested balance changes and everyone could share their opinion about this. There's a bunch of other threads, where you can talk about your dreams and desires.

No offense.

[Yougottawanna]

I didn't see this mentioned, but maybe I missed it, it's a UI thing: sometimes when your list of buffs/debuffs (that you get by mousing over the character portrait) gets so long that it won't all fit on the screen. You have to open the character screen to the what effects you have and the duration. King of irritating... is there a way to save space on that mouseover popup? Make each entry smaller somehow, so they can all fit.

[MaxQuest]

Regarding Riposte: Phenomenum has already showed that it is currently underperforming when compared to PoE1, and Thelee has pointed out the problem with Riposte in Turn Based Mode.

 

The comparative chances to trigger are:

 

 

PoE 1:

- riposte triggered: 20% when missed, 30% when grazed.

- base attack roll: 1..100

- base attack resolution: -/16/51/101+

- base hit quality chances: 15% miss, 35% graze, 50% hit, 0% crit

 

Deadfire:

- riposte triggered: 30% when missed

- base attack roll: 1..100

- base attack resolution: -/25/50/100+

- base hit quality chances: 24% miss, 25% graze, 50% hit, 1% crit

 

Deadfire (turn based):

- riposte triggered: 30% when missed

- base attack roll: 1..100

- base attack resolution: -/1/50/100+

- base hit quality chances: 0% miss, 49% graze, 50% hit, 1% crit

 

===========================

 

PoE1:

 

a). defense = accuracy + 50

- attack roll: -49..50

- attack resolution: 65% miss, 35% graze, 0% hit, 0% crit

- riposte: 0.2 * 0.65 + 0.3 * 0.35 = 0.13 + 0.105 = 0.235 = 23.5% chance

 

b). defense = accuracy

- attack roll: 1..100

- attack resolution: 15% miss, 35% graze, 50% hit, 0% crit

- riposte: 0.2 * 0.15 + 0.3 * 0.35 = 0.03 + 0.105 = 0.135 = 13.5% chance

 

--------

 

Deadfire:

 

a). defense = accuracy + 50

- attack roll: -49..50

- attack resolution: 74% miss, 25% graze, 1% hit, 0% crit

- riposte: 0.3 * 0.74 = 0.222 = 22.2% chance

 

b). defense = accuracy

- attack roll: 1..100

- attack resolution: 24% miss, 25% graze, 50% hit, 1% crit

- riposte: 0.3 * 0.24 = 0.072 = 7.2% chance

 

--------

 

Deadfire (turn based):

 

a). defense = accuracy + 50

- attack roll: -49..50

- attack resolution: 50% miss, 49% graze, 1% hit, 0% crit

- riposte: 0.3 * 0.5 = 0.15 = 15% chance

 

b). defense = accuracy

- attack roll: 1..100

- attack resolution: 0% miss, 49% graze, 50% hit, 1% crit

- riposte: 0% chance

 

 

 

I would propose to change Riposte trigger from 30% on miss, to 25% on miss or graze.

With this change it gonna be:

 

Deadfire:

 

a). defense = accuracy + 50

- attack roll: -49..50

- attack resolution: 74% miss, 25% graze, 1% hit, 0% crit

- riposte: 0.25 * 0.74 + 0.25 * 0.25 = 0.2475 = 24.75% chance

 

b). defense = accuracy

- attack roll: 1..100

- attack resolution: 24% miss, 25% graze, 50% hit, 1% crit

- riposte: 0.25 * 0.24 + 0.25 * 0.25 = 0.1225 = 12.25% chance

 

Deadfire (turn based):

 

a). defense = accuracy + 50

- attack roll: -49..50

- attack resolution: 50% miss, 49% graze, 1% hit, 0% crit

- riposte: 0.25 * 0.5 + 0.25 * 0.49 = 0.2475 = 24.75% chance

 

b). defense = accuracy

- attack roll: 1..100

- attack resolution: 0% miss, 49% graze, 50% hit, 1% crit

- riposte: 0.25 * 0 + 0.25 * 0.49 = 0.1225 = 12.25% chance

 

So the benefits are:

- it's more in line with PoE1 values, and 12.25% "baseline" chance sounds ok, no?

- turn based values are more in line with RTwP. i.e. riposte no longer suffers from wider graze range in TB mode.

 

Adding PL scaling to phrases looks perfectly fine for me.

What exactly do you mean (or want to achieve) by "adding PL scaling" to chants? Edited March 12, 2019 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Sounds very solid.

[Phenomenum]

25% on Miss OR Graze, or 25% on Miss AND 25% on Graze?

[MaxQuest]

^ It's same thing, no?)

 

But yeah, let it be: 25% on miss and 25% on graze.

[Boeroer]

25% on Miss OR Graze, or 25% on Miss AND 25% on Graze?

Since when can you miss and graze at the same time? :D

[Phenomenum]

^ It's same thing, no?)

 

Hah, yes, sorry. Затупил