Ivan the Terrible Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I think most people here would agree that KOTOR didn't present 'the Dark Side' very convincingly. It's been one of the foremost complaints I've seen (and, for that matter, spoken up about myself.) As such, which character, inside or outside Star Wars, do you think personifies 'the Ideal Sith'? Remembering the debate I had when I first got here with Gromnir about Bioware's use of 'Johnny Quest villains' with no substance, it suddenly struck me that the KOTOR II team includes some of the writers of one of the most perfect examples of what the Sith should be presented as. Thus, my choice: Planescape: Torment's Practical Incarnation. *SLIGHT SPOILERS AHEAD!* Absolutely perfect! Everything and everyone is a tool to him. He doesn't think twice about manipulating a young woman who loves him for his own benefit, sacrificing her for his own gain without batting an eye. But by the same token, he doesn't waste energy on things that don't benefit him; he doesn't randomly massacre civilians to no good purpose, though he certainly wouldn't hesitate for a second if doing so was to his advantage. 'Mercy' isn't neccesarily a weakness to him, because when he shows mercy to Morte on the Pillar of Skulls or Dak'kon in Limbo, he gains an advantage far beyond if he had simply left them to suffer. He essentially treats all of life as a giant game of chess, in which he sacrifices or spares pawns based purely on their use to him. By contrast, if he had been a KOTOR Sith, he would have randomly let out evil belly laughs, randomly tossed in the adjectives 'pitiful', 'pathetic', 'worthless' to describe everything from his underlings to his cup of coffee in the morning, and thrown away advantages because he didn't want to show 'mercy.' I made this half-pony half-monkey monster to please you But I get the feeling that you don't like it What's with all the screaming? You like monkeys, you like ponies Maybe you don't like monsters so much Maybe I used too many monkeys Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nartwak Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 By contrast, if he had been a KOTOR Sith, he would have randomly let out evil belly laughs, randomly tossed in the adjectives 'pitiful', 'pathetic', 'worthless' to describe everything from his underlings to his cup of coffee in the morning, and thrown away advantages because he didn't want to show 'mercy.' I think you're right about this. It's juvenile buffoonery. Chaotic Stupid; as one person here put it. Anyways, I would consider Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader the epitomy of Star Wars villainy. Smart and ruthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Situationist Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I think most people here would agree that KOTOR didn't present 'the Dark Side' very convincingly. It's been one of the foremost complaints I've seen (and, for that matter, spoken up about myself.) As such, which character, inside or outside Star Wars, do you think personifies 'the Ideal Sith'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaberwocki Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I wanted to delete this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opus131 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Agreed. However, I don't think KOTOR was entirely devoid of good Sith figures. I can't remember his name (I'm on a roll today) but the headmaster guy of Korriban's academy was a fantastic character. Far better than Malak. Indeed, after all the Sith baffoons i met before that point (bar Yuthura), it was refreshing to meet this guy who politely 'greeds' me to the accademy, defenatly gave me a sense he wasn't a complete idiot. Pity he had to die, he would have been a perfect canditate to reclute for my new order of the Sith, which requires great control over the force and the dark side, complete mastery of the light saber as well as a GED... Opus131 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Say what you will about Lucas and the Prequels, but I think Palpatine is a fine Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indalecio Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 The only ideal Sith is a dead Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child of Flame Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Indeed, Uthar Wyn was a fine Sith for sure. But he should have seen the betrayal coming, then again, all Sith must die sooner or later. Jergan (I think that as his name, the guy who went crazy in the tomb) was a good Sith as well IMHO. I always love it when they cheat deat. But as far as overall, I'd have to say Palpantine was the best Sith ever. Think of the control and micro manipulation it must have taken to keep the Empire together all the years that he did with as corrupt a doctrine as they had. Vader wasn't an ideal Sith because he went good at the end; plus he was always being used as a pawn by Palpantine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cord Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I have to agree that, in KOTOR1, the Sith and the evil options in general were somewhat less than cerebral. However, I could settle for less. Heck, I'd be happy with the Sith if they were at least occasionally funny. In that spirit, I nominate "Dark Helmet". "I see your schwartz is as big as mine!" P.S. Just Kidding. Hannibal Lector comes to mind as being a more appropriate model for a villian. Civil, cerebral, and knows how to garnish human liver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
severxsever Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 And also not quite campy enough to inspire widespread criticism of otherwise distinguished actors (or voice actors, as the case may be). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Bun-Bun from www.sluggy.com make a great Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sniggy Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 the ideal sith is one of those sith-named-dudes here in this forum. can't remember his name, but he seemed quite evil to me : :D It's very hard to be polite if you're a cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumen11 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Uthar was too wise to be a real Sith. Thinking about one of the questions the ex-headmasters poses to, I'd guess Uthar would actually do something like giving op a personal benefit to strengthen the Sith as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opus131 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Uthar was too wise to be a real Sith. Ding ding, is KOTOR's limited conception of the Sith already being accepted as standard ?!? Stop that... Opus131 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berserk Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I can only agree that BIO:s interpretation of the Sith was of the old school villains, the ones that destroy a world just to show of how incredible eeeevil they were while they make a silly "mwahahaha" laugh. I for one hope that Obsidian makes the "evil" side less silly and the antagonist more interesting. I guess that's my problem with many of the Star Wars games as they take the SW "black and white" view on morality too far. But I guess that hoping for a more "grey" view on morality as in Tie Fighter is too much to ask for. EDIT:All I ask for is the opportunity to play a Jedi Jolee style, he did good stuff without having to preach every time like friggin choir boy to show how lightside he is <_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Uthar Wynn and The Emperor would be my choices when thinking about how 'true' they are to the Sith code. They seem to have no real weaknesess, beside over-confidence ofcourse "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny_Evil Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Being able to play a "chessmaster" style villain would make Kotor2 perfect. Subtle dialogue choices to guide others into the path that most benefits me. Ahhh... Mission: You'll have to kill me! But I don't think you will. Revan: No, I'm not going to kill you Mission, but Carth will. He'll think you've joined me and he'll kill you without a thought. Mission: But... Carth's not like that! Revan: You think not? He's just abandoned you Mission. Would he have left you if he thought otherwise? He killed his son for being a Sith, what makes you think you'd receive any different treatment? That kind of thing would've made that whole scene so much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child of Flame Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Being able to play a "chessmaster" style villain would make Kotor2 perfect. Subtle dialogue choices to guide others into the path that most benefits me. Ahhh... Mission: You'll have to kill me! But I don't think you will. Revan: No, I'm not going to kill you Mission, but Carth will. He'll think you've joined me and he'll kill you without a thought. Mission: But... Carth's not like that! Revan: You think not? He's just abandoned you Mission. Would he have left you if he thought otherwise? He killed his son for being a Sith, what makes you think you'd receive any different treatment? That kind of thing would've made that whole scene so much better. Hell yes. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bless Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I have to admit that Jolee was one cool Jedi. He didn't agree with either side, and I can respect that. It would be nice if everything wasn't white = good and black = bad, cut and dry bullScheisse. Lets get some real Sith into the game damn it . . . Ohhhh, and that "re-written" scene with mission is great. Stuff like that would be SO much more fun. Although getting Big Z to kill her was rather delish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny_Evil Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 [quote name='Bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bless Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 But both would have been so fun! I actually wanted her to join me though, because her loyalty was commendable. That's the most important thing, loyalty; why would you want to get rid of someone like her? Should have had the choice to manipulate her to the dark side. I don't see why you couldn't: you were able to get her to hate the Hidden Beks rather easily . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 McCarthy. Powerful and evil, he ruthlessly destroyed lives, corroded the very American values he sought to protect, and was convinced that what he did was for the good of all. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opus131 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 [quote name='Bless Opus131 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child of Flame Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 [quote name='Bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opus131 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 [quote name='Bless Opus131 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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