[MECHANICS] Fists and Scaling

[thelee]

I had a character accidentally take Monastic Unarmed Training and was actually surprised what I ended up with, so I dug a bit more. I can't seem to find much around the forums/internet about how monk fists and other weapon scaling works, so decided to create this post.

 

NORMAL SUMMONED WEAPON/ARMOR SCALING

are character level based.

All summoned weapons/armor (including druid weapons) follow this scaling. They have a base effect, and then automatically get an enchantment based on your character level.

 

levels 1-4: mundane

levels 5-8: Fine (+15% damage +4 accuracy or +1 armor rating or +2 shield deflection)

levels 9-12: Exceptional

levels 13-16: Superb

levels 17-20: Legendary

 

Multi-classing doesn't affect this scaling, so a level 17 character summoning a weapon will get a +60% damage/+16 accuracy weapon regardless of whether they are PL8 (single-class) or PL6 (multi-class).

 

MONK FISTS

are power level based.

 

They do 14-19 damage, 7 penetration, are effectively single-hand weapons that you dual-wield with by default, and have .5s attack and 3.0s recovery.

 

You start off with +5% damage, +2 accuracy, and +1 penetration, and get an additional +15% damage, +4 accuracy, and +1 penetration every even power level (so PL/2 rounding down).

 

So at PL2 you get +20% damage, +6 accuracy, and +2 penetration. At PL9 with Prestige for effective PL10, you get +80% damage, +22 accuracy, and +6 penetration (basically better-than-mythic quality fists).

 

Notably, if you multi-class a monk your fists will be worse throughout the game because your PL will be lower. Unlike most PL scaling for martial stuff, this is actually a fairly significant PL scaling penalty, and so to get up to legendary level fists you must have some alternate source for +1 PL to jump up from PL7 to PL8 (like nature godlike racial, that amulet that lets you get +1 PL for rest of fight). Or if you're multi-classing you might rather just use weapons.

 

BARE FISTS

are crappy and don't scale. Something like 6-9 damage.

 

MONASTIC UNARMED TRAINING

are buggily power level based.

 

Upon taking this talent, your fist damage automatically upgrades to monk quality fists of 14-19 damage, 7 pen, .5/3.0s attack/recovery. Then, you get a scaling similar to the monk's version except for two critical differences. First, instead of improving every even power level, it does it at every third power level e.g. PL3, PL6, PL9, etc. Second, it buggily always uses single-class power level scaling progression, even if you're multiclassed. In practice, this means that the scaling is fixed at:

 

levels 1-4 (buggy PL1, 2): +5% damage, +2 accuracy, +1 penetration

levels 5-10 (buggy PL3, 4, 5): +20% damage, +6 accuracy, +2 penetration

levels 11-18 (buggy PL6, 7, 8 ): +35% damage, +10 accuracy, +3 penetration

levels 19-20 (buggy PL9): +50% damage, +14 accuracy, +4 penetration

 

This is different from what this post originally said (special thanks to mant2si for bringing some interactions to my attention and doing some testing), which was that it was fixed based on character level. The difference with the changes here is that things that influence your PL still affect the scaling offered by monastic unarmed training, unlike normal weapon scaling. If you manage to cobble together +3 bonus PL (remember that passives from your skill tree and items stack, active abilities and consumables do not) you'll be able to get better-than-legendary scaling by end-game and speed up how quickly you get other sources of scaling. 

 

CLOSING THOUGHTS

Monastic unarmed training is a weird talent. When you can first get it (level 2), it basically grants you the best basic weapons available to you at that point in time and for a while. On its own, however, it doesn't scale well (staying at basically the "fine" and "exceptional" equivalent levels waaaay too long) and may not be able to match the legendary items you may find late game or even the legendary scaling that summoned weapons will have.

 

However, with a few sources of bonus PL (at least +3) it actually can still get to legendary (and potentially even mythic) level scaling and solves that long, slow scaling problem.

 

Regardless of whether or not you optimize for the +3 PL, it is viable (whereas the PoE1 version of this talent was extremely niche). A barbarian might get more mileage out of it compared to other classes because its highest base damage (14-19) combines well with the fact that carnage's damage is keyed off solely from base weapon damage. It also helps that this is a "fast" melee weapon (3s recovery) and normally to get close to this level of damage you end up with "slow" weapons (4s recovery).

 

In fact, any class that relies heavily on weapon damage passives might get some mileage out of monastic unarmed training, because while a sabre does the most tool-tip damage of basic weapons, it has a slightly lower base damage (13-19) and gets up to 14-21 via its inherent +10% damage scaling. So e.g. rogues might like having sneak attack/deathblows/backstab/streetfighter damage scale directly off 14-19 rather than 13-19, and all of this on top of being a fast weapon. It is almost as if monastic unarmed training gave you better blunt sabres that also had a huge inherent action speed/recovery time bonus. You also have higher penetration early on (8 vs 7 for a sabre, then 9 vs 8 for a fine sabre). However this extreme early advantage is mitigated over time due to the slow scaling; you might be wielding legendary sabres with all sorts of additional abilities while you are still stuck with +35% dmg/+10 acc/+3 pen fists at which point does it really matter that fists are that fast? So again, to really get the most mileage out of the talent you need to cobble together sources of bonus PL (paying real close attention to stacking rules).

 

For those taking Abydon's Challenge, monastic unarmed training might be more useful even without bonus PL because they are basically decent weapons that you will never have to worry about repairing (and don't need to be summoned). The cost is that without bonus PL you will still be behind the enchantment curve and won't get up to approximately superb or legendary quality (since it straddles the line between them) until extremely late in the game.

 

PS. the sensitivity of monk fists to PL scaling suggests that even something basic like Shaken (-5 resolve, -3 PL) is a good way to weaken enemy monks.

Edited September 23, 2018 by thelee

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

I think it's nieche in this game as well, bro. It's nice to have some crush dmg on demand, but I wouldn't go around... fisting everything. 

 

Speaking of which... why are you so interested in... fisting?  

[thelee]

i actually made a critical timing error and monastic unarmed training is better than i original stated.

 

it's actually .5s/3.0s weapon, not a .7/4.0. i'm about to update the OP with my thoughts and corrections.

Edited September 22, 2018 by thelee

[mant2si]

They both scale with PL and on 12PL

Monks fists will give you +7pen/+26ACC/+90%DM
Unarmed training will give you  +5pen/18acc/+65%DM

(I never tests what you will get on 13PL, but you can stack such PL on no-multi-class monk +2PL from potion, +1 form prestige talent, +1 from Godlike passive)

Death Godlike + BDD spell + 2PL potion allow multi-class monks get  12PL and benefit from fists scaling

[thelee]

They both scale with PL and on 12PL

 

Monks fists will give you +7pen/+26ACC/+90%DM

Unarmed training will give you  +5pen/18acc/+65%DM

 

(I never tests what you will get on 13PL, but you can stack such PL on no-multi-class monk +2PL from potion, +1 form prestige talent, +1 from Godlike passive)

 

Death Godlike + BDD spell + 2PL potion allow multi-class monks get  12PL and benefit from fists scaling

 

That's interesting - I tested unarmed training with both a single class and a multi-class character and got the exact same rate of fists improvement, which was particularly notable because it meant getting improvements to my fists that didn't correspond at all to a power level (for the multi-class). What do you think is happening here?

[mant2si]

 

That's interesting - I tested unarmed training with both a single class and a multi-class character and got the exact same rate of fists improvement, which was particularly notable because it meant getting improvements to my fists that didn't correspond at all to a power level (for the multi-class). What do you think is happening here?

 

You need PL > 10

 

You also wrote about mystic quality, but mystic quality give you only +18ACC and +5PEN, I don't know what affect Obsidian make this decision but Monk's fists the best weapon in the game, because it has unlimited scaling

 

In fact you can stack 15PL (Pure Monk + Death Godlike + Potion), I will test it and write more info in this post

Edited September 22, 2018 by mant2si

[thelee]

 

 

That's interesting - I tested unarmed training with both a single class and a multi-class character and got the exact same rate of fists improvement, which was particularly notable because it meant getting improvements to my fists that didn't correspond at all to a power level (for the multi-class). What do you think is happening here?

 

You need PL > 10

 

You also wrote about mystic quality, but mystic quality give you only +18ACC and +5PEN, I don't know what affect Obsidian make this decision but Monk's fists the best weapon in the game, because it has unlimited scaling

 

In fact you can stack 15PL (Pure Monk + Death Godlike + Potion), I will test it and write more info in this post

 

 

I think you misunderstood what I'm saying.

 

multiclass characters get PLs at a different rate than single-class characters.

 

I don't doubt what you're saying you saw with training, but it's hard to reconcile that with what i saw when i was leveling a multiclass+training and a singleclass+training.

 

At PL3 (level 5) with single class I got better fists. Makes sense, corresponds to a power-level. With multiclass, at level 5, I also got better fists. Makes no sense if this is power-level based because you don't get a power level at level 5 when multiclassing.

 

also, you were right, i misremembered what mythic quality is, i'll fix OP.

Edited September 22, 2018 by thelee

[thelee]

Possible theory: way back in the day when consumables erroneously scaled with character level, they used an effective PL-scaling that was equivalent to your single-class character progression even if you were multi-classed.

 

It's possible monastic unarmed training suffers from the same bug and they never fixed it as part of the consumables reset.

 

In this theory, unarmed training fists would get better at every 3 "PLs" (PL3, PL6, PL9, PL12) except you always use the single-classing PL progression rate (and any extra PL buffs from potions or talents would affect this single-classing PL number even if you were multiclassed).

 

So if you can get up to PL15 and get +80% fists with unarmed training that would prove that it's bugged in our favor and is better than what I originally wrote.

Edited September 22, 2018 by thelee

[mant2si]

With 15PL MONK will give you +8PEN/+30ACC/+110%DM 
With 15PL TALENT will give you +6PEN/+22ACC/+80%DM

Edited September 22, 2018 by mant2si

[thelee]

This might actually mean that a single-class barbarian with monastic unarmed training would be a blast with Carnage. Highest base damage with 3s attack speed for Carnage attacks and with PL boosts you can get legendary/mythic scaling for normal attacks.

Edited September 22, 2018 by thelee

[thelee]

Thanks, mant2si for testing! When I'm back at my desktop later today ill edit the OP to incorporate your findings.

[mant2si]

This might actually mean that a single-class barbarian with monastic unarmes training would be a blast with Carnage. Highest base damage with 3s attack speed and with PL boosts you can get legendary/mythic scaling.

You can check my Harbinger of Doom build, this is not single class but multi-class with priest, so you will lose +1 pen/+4 acc/15% and 3PL ~= 0.15% of damage 

But the highest Carnage damage you can get only with Helwaler/Barbarian - because Carnage formula = (BASE * 0.33) * (1.05 * PL) * (MIGHT) - which mean that 3PL will give you only 15% of Damage and 10MIGHT (PASSIVE) from Helwalker will give you +30% of Damage

Edited September 23, 2018 by mant2si

[heldred]

All the monk needs, another OP feature.

 

Monk is so OP, even the lesser version of its power is OP... love it.

[Boeroer]

Why Monk? Monk doesn't have Monastic Unarmed Training. It's for all OTHER classes than monk. Also: not the fists make monks so good. It's their other abilities.

 

So, Monastic scales the same with multiclasses or single class BUT it is actually scaling with a kind of single class PL progression.

 

That does mean that if I wanted to get a nice PL boost with Monastic UT as a multiclass char I should take a Nature Godlike or Death Godlike Brute?

Wellspring of Life/Pallid Fate: +1 PL / +3 PL

Corpse Eater: +2 PL from certain kith meat food

Tactical Barrage: +1 PL

 

Something like that? Will have to try that out  

[Hulk'O'Saurus]

That's actually interesting to me, so I'll ask the question:

 

Isn't Hot Razor Skewers better than the Kith Meat Pie(was it?) for corspe eater who wants to melee?

[Elric Galad]

It deserves to be noted that since everyone start with proficiency with unarmed, Devoted don't get penalty to use them.

Then even get their Devoted bonus with fist since it applies to everything you're proficient with.

 

Therefore monastic training is an excellent talent for Devoted especially if they want to specialize in a weapon with single damage type (pierce or slash, crush being covered by fists). 

[thelee]

Why Monk? Monk doesn't have Monastic Unarmed Training. It's for all OTHER classes than monk. Also: not the fists make monks so good. It's their other abilities.

 

So, Monastic scales the same with multiclasses or single class BUT it is actually scaling with a kind of single class PL progression.

 

That does mean that if I wanted to get a nice PL boost with Monastic UT as a multiclass char I should take a Nature Godlike or Death Godlike Brute?

Wellspring of Life/Pallid Fate: +1 PL / +3 PL

Corpse Eater: +2 PL from certain kith meat food

Tactical Barrage: +1 PL

 

Something like that? Will have to try that out

yes you have to pay attention to stacking rules, but i think the max you could get is +6 via a single-class. +3 from pallid fate, +1 from prestige (stacks), and then +2 from either food (corpse eater food bonus) or potion (potion of ascension). that's enough to get up past mythic level scaling with monastic unarmed training. without single-class I think the best you can do is +5 (no prestige).

 

pallid fate is a little hard to get consistent uptime for, though, and while getting better-than-mythic 14-19 "fast" weapons is good, i'm not sure it's good enough to warrant keeping a priest around just to BDD + salvation of time to keep your death godlike alive. (though it does mean a single-class priest would have some great 1:1 solo melee potential. a priest of wael would have lots of survivability and you wouldn't be wasting another party slot just to BDD/Salvation of Time your near death experiences.)

 

for multi-class brute it would be easy to get +3 with near 100% uptime (+1 nature godlike and corpseeater food), which is enough to get up to legendary by end game, which is probably "good enough" to make the talent worth it.

 

Edit: would have to pay attention to how corpse eater food implements its PL bonuses. Class-specific PL bonus (like ascendant's +3 when ascended) don't count for fists. So if it's +2 corpse eater PL it wouldn't work. But if it's just generic +2PL that just happens to require corpse eater, then it would.

Edited September 23, 2018 by thelee

[thelee]

It deserves to be noted that since everyone start with proficiency with unarmed, Devoted don't get penalty to use them.

 

Then even get their Devoted bonus with fist since it applies to everything you're proficient with.

 

Therefore monastic training is an excellent talent for Devoted especially if they want to specialize in a weapon with single damage type (pierce or slash, crush being covered by fists).

is that really true (aka tested in game)? i seem to recall seeing some bugs posted about devoted getting -10 accuracy penalty with fists.

 

otherwise devoted would be a pretty fun puncher.

Edited September 23, 2018 by thelee

[thelee]

Just did a couple quick tests:

 

1. unfortunately corpse-eater food is class-specific power level bonus, so won't help with monastic unarmed training's PL scaling. looks like potion of ascension is the main option for +2 PL from consumables/active abilities.

2. devoted indeed works with plain fists and monastic unarmed training. extra crit and penetration!

[Manveru123]

 

2. devoted indeed works with plain fists and monastic unarmed training. extra crit and penetration!

Devoted/Monk multi used to be ridiculous before they nerfed Stunning Surge resource recovery. But it's still very strong. My favourite choice for fisting enthusiast.

[AndreaColombo]

^ Please—let’s keep this place PG-13

[heldred]

First off, thanks for the insightful analysis... you can usually observe the effectiveness of powers, but always better to have the numbers.

 

Regarding monk fists, I think mythic level power is a bit over the top, since the bar was set at legendary (or so I thought).

 

For monastic unarmed training, it seems pretty damn good for a low level power that by design, or oversight, scales a little too well.

[thelee]

First off, thanks for the insightful analysis... you can usually observe the effectiveness of powers, but always better to have the numbers.

 

Regarding monk fists, I think mythic level power is a bit over the top, since the bar was set at legendary (or so I thought).

 

For monastic unarmed training, it seems pretty damn good for a low level power that by design, or oversight, scales a little too well.

 

for monastic unarmed training, i wouldn't necessarily call it "a little too well." I was thinking about it a bit on the train today, and there are very few ways to actually build a character that can get post-legendary or post-mythic scaling (some combination of nature godlike, death godlike, prestige, Acute inspiration, hot razor skewers, and/or potion of ascension). most everyone will be stuck with post-suberb scaling, and only very nearly end-game at that; for them it's merely just a quirky alternative rather than a powerful/good choice. (this is still way better than poe1 where the equivalent talent there wasn't even remotely good enough to be comparable for 99% of builds.)

Edited September 25, 2018 by thelee

[Verde]

I think it's nieche in this game as well, bro. It's nice to have some crush dmg on demand, but I wouldn't go around... fisting everything.

 

Speaking of which... why are you so interested in... fisting?

Have you played Bloodborne? Hehe.

[Boeroer]

 

First off, thanks for the insightful analysis... you can usually observe the effectiveness of powers, but always better to have the numbers.

 

Regarding monk fists, I think mythic level power is a bit over the top, since the bar was set at legendary (or so I thought).

 

For monastic unarmed training, it seems pretty damn good for a low level power that by design, or oversight, scales a little too well.

for monastic unarmed training, i wouldn't necessarily call it "a little too well." I was thinking about it a bit on the train today, and there are very few ways to actually build a character that can get post-legendary or post-mythic scaling (some combination of nature godlike, death godlike, prestige, Acute inspiration, hot razor skewers, and/or potion of ascension). most everyone will be stuck with post-suberb scaling, and only very nearly end-game at that; for them it's merely just a quirky alternative rather than a powerful/good choice. (this is still way better than poe1 where the equivalent talent there wasn't even remotely good enough to be comparable for 99% of builds.)

Depends. Because its graze/hit/crit damage was nearly the same (because the base damage was so low but the flat bonus was so high and scaled with MIG) it was a great talent in PoE for all builds that couldn't get a lot of dmg mods and/or crits but high MIG. So Wizards, Priest, Chanters, Barbarian's Carnage and in general low PER builds could profit from it. I even made an unarmed fighter with maxed MIG, CON and DEX but lowish PER, Sandals of the Forgotten Friar and chose no dmg mods but defensive talents instead (besides Two Weapon Style) and it was pretty good. That's not 1% of builds I guess. Edited September 25, 2018 by Boeroer