The Political Thread - Machiavelli Edition

[Gfted1]

Sounds terrible if true. If we assume these statistics are accurate there are ~5.2M Native Americans, 22% of which live on a reservation and will be affected by this? So roughly 1.14M voters country wide? Of which an even smaller percentage will even bother voting? Seems weirdly specific but shouldn't be happening regardless, imo.

[ShadySands]

Right now seems to just be a North Dakota thing but it could tip the balance of a close race

 

From the article

The voter ID law was passed after Heitkamp became North Dakota's only Democratic statewide officeholder in 2012, in part due to support from Native American voters.

 

Edit because the quote function always adds a blank line at the top for me

Edited October 12, 2018 by ShadySands

[Guard Dog]

So... let's see... Kanye West bashed Bush and the Democrats think he's a hero, genius, great talent. Republicans think he's a spoiled celebrity who doesn't know anything. Kanye praised Trump and the Republicans think he's a "free thinker" and "his own man" and the Democrats say he's mentally ill and a traitor to his own race.

 

I say "Who cares what he thinks. Why are we even talking about this????"   

 

 

(repeat last post and insert name Taylor Swift)

[Raithe]

Well, to be fair, Taylor Swift is getting talked about because there was an actual effect of increased voter registration.

And you have to admit, anything that actually increases voter registration and peoples engagement with the democratic process is a good thing. At least it gets them started actually thinking on the voting process.

[ShadySands]

He is mentally ill though and bragging about being off his meds

 

Well, to be fair, Taylor Swift is getting talked about because there was an actual effect of increased voter registration.

And you have to admit, anything that actually increases voter registration and peoples engagement with the democratic process is a good thing. At least it gets them started actually thinking on the voting process.

We've mostly been about voter suppression as you can see from your earlier post

[Raithe]

It's an interesting viewpoint isn't it?

 

"We want to regulate weapons a  little more"  "Hell No! That's a slippery slope that leads to banning all our rights!"

 

"We're going to make it so certain people can't vote"    "Eh, doesn't affect me, it's just a small thing that we don't have to worry about."

[Guard Dog]

Regulating anything, denying anything, it's all bad. All of it. If Swift is increasing voter registration that's certainly good. Too bad the new voters are going to vote to take things away from other people. But that's what happens when people think they have only two choices. But that's just how it is in the USA now. It's not about good public policy (if it ever was) it's just about electing people who will f--k over the half of the country you've been told are your enemies.

 

The beauty of the American political system is that it corrects. The Democrats had all the power in 2008. They pissed a lot of people off and lost the House in 2010, the Senate and most of the governorship in 2012, and everything in 2016. After 2016 you could drive from Miami to Spokane Washington and not pass through any district, state or federal with a Democrat representative. The Republicans controlled everything. They are pissing people off and it looks like the Dems will take the House in 2018, in 2020 probably take the Senate if not the WH. And if they do take everything they will piss people off, the Republicans will take the House in 2022 and the cycle continues. It happens in 1992, 1994, 1996, & 2000. Then again in 2000, 2004, and 2006. On an on it goes.

[smjjames]

What about stuff like safety regulations or common sense stuff? Unless you expect companies to police themselves and not cut corners? Or perhaps regulations requiring companies to accomodate disabled people.

 

Sure, they could get a little silly or too fine grained like a sign at the doctors office that I saw said 'OSHA regulations require no taking off of shoes' or something to that effect while standing on a weight scale (I was 'what even is that all about?' when I saw it). I suppose in that case one might worry about old people or other people tripping on the shoes, but it was in an alcove and there were handrails for someone to hold onto if neccesary.

 

Surely you'd agree that some regulations are beneficial?

Edited October 13, 2018 by smjjames

[Guard Dog]

What about stuff like safety regulations or common sense stuff? Unless you expect companies to police themselves and not cut corners? Or perhaps regulations requiring companies to accomodate disabled people.

 

Sure, they could get a little silly or too fine grained like a sign at the doctors office that I saw said 'OSHA regulations require no taking off of shoes' or something to that effect while standing on a weight scale (I was 'what even is that all about?' when I saw it). I suppose in that case one might worry about old people or other people tripping on the shoes, but it was in an alcove and there were handrails for someone to hold onto if neccesary.

 

Surely you'd agree that some regulations are beneficial?

Yes, the government does have some functions to perform. I'm no anarchist. In fact there is an excellent point by point guide of what those functions are: https://usconstitution.net/const.html

 

Strangely enough I don't recall reading about things like OSHA, the Dept. of Education, etc. I DO recall a part about all powers not specifically assigned TO the Federal Govt being reserved to the states and the people. IMO (and in in that of James Madison) the Federal Government is doing way too much.

[BruceVC]

Regulating anything, denying anything, it's all bad. All of it. If Swift is increasing voter registration that's certainly good. Too bad the new voters are going to vote to take things away from other people. But that's what happens when people think they have only two choices. But that's just how it is in the USA now. It's not about good public policy (if it ever was) it's just about electing people who will f--k over the half of the country you've been told are your enemies.

 

The beauty of the American political system is that it corrects. The Democrats had all the power in 2008. They pissed a lot of people off and lost the House in 2010, the Senate and most of the governorship in 2012, and everything in 2016. After 2016 you could drive from Miami to Spokane Washington and not pass through any district, state or federal with a Democrat representative. The Republicans controlled everything. They are pissing people off and it looks like the Dems will take the House in 2018, in 2020 probably take the Senate if not the WH. And if they do take everything they will piss people off, the Republicans will take the House in 2022 and the cycle continues. It happens in 1992, 1994, 1996, & 2000. Then again in 2000, 2004, and 2006. On an on it goes.

You know I always support the Dems on  most issues but this whole constant almost  irrational view of how Trump is always bad or racist or somehow is going to destroy the USA gets repetitive and unconvincing

 

Trump needs to fulfill some important foreign  objectives that for various  reasons I am also now bound, for example the USA needs to decisively deal with Iran so we can  have stability in the ME....yes there is  finally one faction that I am aligned with or rather my cousins in the UK are now deeply invested in some hedge funds who also support the most unlikely alliance of the USA, Israel and Saudi  Arabia 

 

I have traveled 3 times to Saudi Arabia in the last 2 months and this is the best overall approach to achieve a better ME...I never wanted the USA to ever get involved in the ME again because there efforts and sacrifice are never appreciated but events have now made the USA inextricably committed to another military campaign so we should now support this decision 

 

@ GD, do you think the Dems will be that successful, its not definite to even the ardent Dem strategists you see on CNN but there is some evidence they could do well?

 

Shame I like Khanye, he isnt really considered an intellectual but he should be allowed to support Trump as he does have some reasons

 

 

I think Kim is smoking hot but Nicki Minaj is still my favorite, she is a perfect example of if I could I would happily pay for a good date...no doubt   

[Guard Dog]

Historically speaking the out of power party has a good year in the midterms of an admin's 2nd year. They will likely take over the House by a slim margin or leave the Repubs with a slim margin. hey will likely not take the Senate. The math is unfavorable. If the do take the House they will paralyze the government and we can look forward to two quiet years of gridlock and public sniping until 2020 when we get to do this all over again.

 

Hey, I love gridlock. People bitch about the government not "getting things done" but when all the government does is f--k things up, not getting THAT done is a blessing that should be appreciated.

[213374U]

I'm not sure I'd use "beauty" to describe a system that "works" based on the people it's meant to serve consistently being pissed off about the results it produces, but what do I know.

 

In other news, hooligans duke it out on the streets. Fun times.

[Guard Dog]

Yep... the worst political system in the world... except for all the others

[213374U]

You absolutely shouldn't swing unless you're ready to take a punch or two yourself. Starting **** with some rough characters and then hiding behind the very cops you protest against strikes me as very... contemporary.

 

I simply thought it odd that politically motivated street violence seems to be on the rise in the country with the worst political system except all others.

[Guard Dog]

It seems to be coming from one side really.

 

I told someone once that if they really wanted to build a proletariat utopia in the US they should do it the old fashioned way: start a civil war. I promised them they would be obliged if they wanted one. Let's face it, Americans are a contentious bunch. We're not happy unless we fight each other every 150 years or so.

 

On that note: https://nypost.com/2018/10/12/can-our-modern-house-divided-remain-one-nation/

Edited October 14, 2018 by Guard Dog

[Guard Dog]

[213374U]

It seems to be coming from one side really.

Unless the side you're referring to is the "violent" side, then I'm afraid you're dead wrong.

 

edit: wait, wait. Is this one of those times when we argue that nazis are actually left-wing?

Edited October 14, 2018 by 213374U

[Guard Dog]

 

It seems to be coming from one side really.

Unless the side you're referring to is the "violent" side, then I'm afraid you're dead wrong.

 

edit: wait, wait. Is this one of those times when we argue that nazis are actually left-wing?

 

ou tell me:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/calls-for-civility-after-vandalism-violent-clashes-outside-gop-headquarters-in-new-york

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/410566-clinton-you-cant-be-civil-with-a-party-that-wants-to-destroy

https://dailycaller.com/2018/10/08/antifa-protesters-portland-traffic-riot/

http://abcnews.go.com/US/sen-rand-paul-blindsided-kentucky-home/story?id=50933869

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/kentucky-democrat-reportedly-jokes-about-rand-paul-assault-he-can-be-beaten

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/09/25/ted-cruz-restaurant-brett-kavanaugh-protesters/1419181002/

http://www.startribune.com/rosemount-educator-on-leave-after-tweeting-kill-kavanaugh/495903561/

 

 

Of course some of this is all hat and no cattle. But I never once heard any prominent Republicans call for Obama's assassination. Or for Elena Kagans. Or Sotomayors. Of that their children should be kidnapped and raped. No one ever shot up a field of Democrats playing baseball. Or assaulted one in their home.  Not saying there is no violence from the right. There definitely is. But generally the right leaning leaders are not calling for it. Not so the other way.

 

Nazi, left wing, right wing... what it comes down to is are you so determined to have power over other people you are willing to hurt them or kill them to get it? Plain to see where that is going in this country at least. As for me I am a firm believer in the Non aggression principle. But I am also a firm believer in actively and forcefully defending myself.

[Maedhros]

It's pretty naive and weird to say that it's only coming from one side. Have you forgotten about Charlottesville already?

 

Also, on using Fox news as a source: https://www.newsweek.com/violent-far-right-group-fox-news-victims-1168454

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/09/28/right-wing-warnings-pose-far-more-danger-america-than-left-wing-violence/?utm_term=.ac89fc6e3266

 

^ sums it up nicely.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Thingolfin

[Guard Dog]

No one has exclusivity on violence. The difference is one is being encouraged by their favored party.

[Elerond]

No one has exclusivity on violence. The difference is one is being encouraged by their favored party.

 

You need to be more specific because there are too many candidates that fit in that description

[Guard Dog]

So, a Democrat and  Republican walk into a bar and... https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2018/10/patriot_prayer_flash_march_cal.html

 

BTW I thought a fireball was 2 oz of Dekuyper's Hot Damn schnapps, 1 oz of Absolut 4 oz of club soda with a few dashes of good tobasco stirred well with ice?

Edited October 14, 2018 by Guard Dog

[Maedhros]

Sharp_one: The site may be biased, but if you actually read the article it makes sense. It's well documented with videos that show that this was done by the alt-right/nazi group The Proud Boys, not Antifa. One of the videos clearly show a guy bragging about beating up a foreigner. Does that sound like a nazi, or an anti-fascist to you?

 

Read up a bit on the Proud Boys. Their initiation rite is pretty funny:

 

 

The Proud Boys have a four-degree initiation process for new members. In the first degree, a recruit must declare "I am a Western chauvinist who refuses to apologize for creating the modern world."The second degree involves five or more Proud Boys punching the recruit until he names five breakfast cereals. To earn the third degree, the recruit must get a Proud Boy tattoo.The Proud Boys' website says that the fourth degree is reserved for those who have "endured a major conflict related to the cause." The Southern Poverty Law Center has said this requires the recruit to get into a physical fight with an Antifa activist at a public rally.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Thingolfin

[213374U]

ou tell me:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/calls-for-civility-after-vandalism-violent-clashes-outside-gop-headquarters-in-new-york

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/410566-clinton-you-cant-be-civil-with-a-party-that-wants-to-destroy

https://dailycaller.com/2018/10/08/antifa-protesters-portland-traffic-riot/

http://abcnews.go.com/US/sen-rand-paul-blindsided-kentucky-home/story?id=50933869

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/kentucky-democrat-reportedly-jokes-about-rand-paul-assault-he-can-be-beaten

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/09/25/ted-cruz-restaurant-brett-kavanaugh-protesters/1419181002/

http://www.startribune.com/rosemount-educator-on-leave-after-tweeting-kill-kavanaugh/495903561/

 

 

Of course some of this is all hat and no cattle. But I never once heard any prominent Republicans call for Obama's assassination. Or for Elena Kagans. Or Sotomayors. Of that their children should be kidnapped and raped. No one ever shot up a field of Democrats playing baseball. Or assaulted one in their home.  Not saying there is no violence from the right. There definitely is. But generally the right leaning leaders are not calling for it. Not so the other way.

 

Nazi, left wing, right wing... what it comes down to is are you so determined to have power over other people you are willing to hurt them or kill them to get it? Plain to see where that is going in this country at least. As for me I am a firm believer in the Non aggression principle. But I am also a firm believer in actively and forcefully defending myself.

 

https://qz.com/1182778/the-far-right-was-responsible-for-the-majority-of-extremist-killings-in-2017/

https://www.npr.org/2017/06/16/533255619/fact-check-is-left-wing-violence-rising?t=1539535571134

https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2017/08/21/which-ideology-has-inspired-the-most-murders-in-terrorist-attacks-on-u-s-soil/

 

This is data, and it bears repeating that the plural of anecdote isn't data.

 

What prominent Democrats have called for Trump's assassination? Honest question.

 

It's good that you have at least amended your view that violence all seems to be coming from one side—even if you accept that perpetrators can be placed anywhere in the normal political spectrum.

Edited October 14, 2018 by 213374U

[Malcador]

 

 

It seems to be coming from one side really.

Unless the side you're referring to is the "violent" side, then I'm afraid you're dead wrong.

 

edit: wait, wait. Is this one of those times when we argue that nazis are actually left-wing?

ou tell me:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/calls-for-civility-after-vandalism-violent-clashes-outside-gop-headquarters-in-new-york

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/410566-clinton-you-cant-be-civil-with-a-party-that-wants-to-destroy

https://dailycaller.com/2018/10/08/antifa-protesters-portland-traffic-riot/

http://abcnews.go.com/US/sen-rand-paul-blindsided-kentucky-home/story?id=50933869

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/kentucky-democrat-reportedly-jokes-about-rand-paul-assault-he-can-be-beaten

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/09/25/ted-cruz-restaurant-brett-kavanaugh-protesters/1419181002/

http://www.startribune.com/rosemount-educator-on-leave-after-tweeting-kill-kavanaugh/495903561/

 

 

Of course some of this is all hat and no cattle. But I never once heard any prominent Republicans call for Obama's assassination. Or for Elena Kagans. Or Sotomayors. Of that their children should be kidnapped and raped. No one ever shot up a field of Democrats playing baseball. Or assaulted one in their home. Not saying there is no violence from the right. There definitely is. But generally the right leaning leaders are not calling for it. Not so the other way.

 

Nazi, left wing, right wing... what it comes down to is are you so determined to have power over other people you are willing to hurt them or kill them to get it? Plain to see where that is going in this country at least. As for me I am a firm believer in the Non aggression principle. But I am also a firm believer in actively and forcefully defending myself.

People heckling Cruz at dinner should not be mentioned in the context of violence, heh. But still what top Democrats have called for Trump to die or for outright violence? Clinton saying don't be civil is a big stretch. Also Republicans crying for that are going to be full of **** as Graham always is.