Swashbuckler VS Marauder?

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Hey guys,

 

So, I'm currently stuck between a Swashbuckler and a Marauder build for my pro-Principi character. I've listed the pros and cons of both here, and would like to get some feedback on both of them. They'd more or less use the same gear (DoC Breastplate, Boltcatchers, Defiant Apparel, Boots of the Stone, Upright Captain's Belt, Nemnok's Cloak, Strand of Favor, Chameleon's Touch/X (Voidward or the Ring of Prosperity's Fortune). 

 

1. Marauder: 

 

Pros:

- High damage, great critical hit capabilities (30% from Frenzy, 20% from Bloody Slaughter, coupled with hit-to-crit from Barbaric Blow), and access to all six different types of afflictions. 

- Savage Defiance regenerates health over time. 

- Synergizes well with both Lord Darryn's Voulge (Carnage spreads Static Thunder) and Boltcatchers (High hit-to-crit to proc the lightning strike chance on crit). 

 

Cons: 

- Low survivability even with high Con, so setting up the Streetfighter conditional is tricky. 

- Lord Darryn's Voulge/Carnage/Boltcatchers extra damage effects key off of high Might, which also increases the self-inflicted Raw damage that Frenzy does at higher Power Levels. 

 

2. Swashbuckler: 

 

Pros: 

- High damage (Roughly equivalent to Marauder, except it doesn't have Blooded). Good Accuracy (+5 from Disciplined Strikes)

- Unbending regenerates massive health on hit. 

- Some good weapon synergies; Eager Blade with Mob Stance for example. 

 

Cons: 

- Less hit-to-crit (25% from Disciplined Strikes, 10% from Dirty Fighting)

- Less AoE potential. 

[mant2si]

If you so love Lord Darryn's Voulge and survivability why not Devoted (Polalxe)/Berserker ? I saw your Brute build and it fit pro-Principe theme very well plus has good penetration 

If you stack recovery speed enough you will lost only ~10-15% recovery speed and 150% crit damage bonus which doesn't work with carnage. As devoted you always has your fists (with Monactic Unarmed talent), which will help you destroy single targets

Edited August 25, 2018 by mant2si

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

If you so love Lord Darryn's Voulge and survivability why not Devoted (Polalxe)/Berserker ? I saw your Brute build and it fit pro-Principe theme very well plus has good penetration 

 

If you stack recovery speed enough you will lost only ~10-15% recovery speed and 150% crit damage bonus which doesn't work with carnage. As devoted you always has your fists (with Monactic Unarmed talent), which will help you destroy single targets

 

Brute loses out on 160% Sneak Attack damage though, which is pretty significant. Pretty sure Carnage is a percentage of damage dealt to the main target, so having higher base damage is important for that at least. 

[Theosupus]

Thematically, if you are looking to recreate the feeling of a Euron Greyjoy reaver from the iron isles Marauder is more fitting. 
Hard hitting and "the best defense is a good offense" type character.
I would personally prefer to dual wield as a marauder instead of the 2 handed, but it will still work quite well with LDV, which you can get immediately after the tutorial if you wanted.
 

Edited August 25, 2018 by Theosupus

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Thematically, if you are looking to recreate the feeling of a Euron Greyjoy reaver from the iron isles Marauder is more fitting. 

Hard hitting and "the best defense is a good offense" type character.

I would personally prefer to dual wield as a marauder instead of the 2 handed, but it will still work quite well with LDV, which you can get immediately after the tutorial if you wanted.

 

 

I'll likely do both - have a dual wield set and a two handed set. And I definitely like the idea of a super strong offense. Now it's just a matter of making sure the raw damage doesn't murder me. 

 

Also, people hate what the show did to Euron, but I love how over the top and ridiculous he is. He's so hammy. 

Edited August 25, 2018 by Cyrus_Blackfeather

[Theosupus]

Unless you are talking solo, the frenzy damage will never be that bad, drop a moonwell under him and you won't even notice.

Edited August 25, 2018 by Theosupus

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Unless you are talking solo, the frenzy damage will never be that bad, drop a moonwell under him and you won't even notice.

 

Mhmm. I don't see myself ever going solo. 

[thundercleese]

Yeah with a healer the DoT is quite manageable, even more so if you use Voidward.

 

Regarding carnage - it is 33% of the base weapon damage (ie 13-19 on a saber), and is only increased by Might and PL. So basically a Marauder will hit just as hard as a Brute with carnage, given the same Might score.

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Yeah with a healer the DoT is quite manageable, even more so if you use Voidward.

 

Regarding carnage - it is 33% of the base weapon damage (ie 13-19 on a saber), and is only increased by Might and PL. So basically a Marauder will hit just as hard as a Brute with carnage, given the same Might score.

 

Oooh, it's base WEAPON damage. So not 33% of damage after all modifiers are taken into account. 

 

Yeah, that makes sense. That'd mean I'd be hitting 40 damage carnage with some of the hits my test Marauder was running. 

 

Edit: Plus Voidward gives +2 Corrode AR too, so that's nice. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Cyrus_Blackfeather

[Mocker22]

Damn it Cyrus I thought we decided on a Brute!!!!

 

Ok so anywho I think Swashbuckler is amazing. Unbroken/Trickster has very high defenses and very respectable dps output. Don't forget about the synergy here with high defenses + riposte, and things like persistent distraction + deathblows. Also works amazingly well imo with items that increase engagement like Kapana Taga and Reckless Brigandine. Lots of bonuses from having tons of enemies engaged, and Armored Grace + Abraham pet will nearly eliminate armor recovery penalty from using heavy armor. You can go with a retaliation shield or just dual wield if you prefer the flavor or higher dps. You sacrifice deflection, but that won't hinder you too badly imo. Boeroer also had an amazing idea about Wohai Poraga + Toxic Strike to apply a big ole dot to a whole group of enemies to start a fight. Make sure you max intel and might with this build. So many buffs will have their duration extended with the intel, especially Unbending to make you nearly unkillable.

 

You gotta decide if you want higher dps or higher defenses. I like swashbuckler because to me a Berserker/Street Fighter is way too much of a glass cannon for a melee char on potd. I don't mind glass cannon approaches for ranged/casters, but for a melee guy I want to be able to survive without absurd amounts of micro-management.

[thundercleese]

 

Yeah with a healer the DoT is quite manageable, even more so if you use Voidward.

 

Regarding carnage - it is 33% of the base weapon damage (ie 13-19 on a saber), and is only increased by Might and PL. So basically a Marauder will hit just as hard as a Brute with carnage, given the same Might score.

 

Oooh, it's base WEAPON damage. So not 33% of damage after all modifiers are taken into account. 

 

Yeah, that makes sense. That'd mean I'd be hitting 40 damage carnage with some of the hits my test Marauder was running. 

 

Edit: Plus Voidward gives +2 Corrode AR too, so that's nice. 

 

Umm I'm not sure it's possible to do 40 damage with carnage, like ever. Probably looking at ~20 per target max with decent might.

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

 

 

Yeah with a healer the DoT is quite manageable, even more so if you use Voidward.

 

Regarding carnage - it is 33% of the base weapon damage (ie 13-19 on a saber), and is only increased by Might and PL. So basically a Marauder will hit just as hard as a Brute with carnage, given the same Might score.

 

Oooh, it's base WEAPON damage. So not 33% of damage after all modifiers are taken into account. 

 

Yeah, that makes sense. That'd mean I'd be hitting 40 damage carnage with some of the hits my test Marauder was running. 

 

Edit: Plus Voidward gives +2 Corrode AR too, so that's nice. 

 

Umm I'm not sure it's possible to do 40 damage with carnage, like ever. Probably looking at ~20 per target max with decent might.

 

 

No, no! Sorry, I misspoke. 

 

I meant that if my idea for Carnage math (That is, that it took Sneak Attack damage and stuff into account) was true, then the damage would be patently absurd. 

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Damn it Cyrus I thought we decided on a Brute!!!!

 

Ok so anywho I think Swashbuckler is amazing. Unbroken/Trickster has very high defenses and very respectable dps output. Don't forget about the synergy here with high defenses + riposte, and things like persistent distraction + deathblows. Also works amazingly well imo with items that increase engagement like Kapana Taga and Reckless Brigandine. Lots of bonuses from having tons of enemies engaged, and Armored Grace + Abraham pet will nearly eliminate armor recovery penalty from using heavy armor. You can go with a retaliation shield or just dual wield if you prefer the flavor or higher dps. You sacrifice deflection, but that won't hinder you too badly imo. Boeroer also had an amazing idea about Wohai Poraga + Toxic Strike to apply a big ole dot to a whole group of enemies to start a fight. Make sure you max intel and might with this build. So many buffs will have their duration extended with the intel, especially Unbending to make you nearly unkillable.

 

You gotta decide if you want higher dps or higher defenses. I like swashbuckler because to me a Berserker/Street Fighter is way too much of a glass cannon for a melee char on potd. I don't mind glass cannon approaches for ranged/casters, but for a melee guy I want to be able to survive without absurd amounts of micro-management.

 

We did, but then I just kept having a bunch of different ideas! I'm sorry. 

 

It should be mentioned that, leaving the Swashbuckler NPC I made to test things on autopilot, it took them FOREVER to die. And there's nothing saying I can't use Boltcatchers on Swashbuckler for extra lightning damage. It might actually do just as much as Lord Darryn's Voulge, if not a little more. And I don't even have to go Trickster, per se, I could go Streetfighter as well. My only real issue with it is that you can make Eder one. That said, Barbarian gets access to Savage Defiance, which - at the cost of 3(!) Rage, does a pretty good job of keeping it alive. And that's with every enemy focused on the Marauder. 

 

The biggest thing I don't like about the Swashbuckler isn't so much the lack of damage (Because there isn't really a lack of damage, really - it does great damage in its own right), it's the fact that it doesn't synergize as well with Lord Darryn's Voulge. Brute does, but then Brute sacrifices the extra damage that the Rogue gives to either Barbarian or Fighter. And to me, there's something incredibly satisfying about a bunch of lightning gathering along your weapon as you bring it down to strike your enemy. 

 

There's a lot to be said for optimizing, but then there's a certain element of style too, that can't be overlooked. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Cyrus_Blackfeather

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

I think my problem is that I'm trying to evoke a certain theme. I want to play the character who leads the fray, carving a swath through the crew of an enemy ship, or going toe-to-toe with a dragon. This is a problem because there are several different multiclass options that fit that theme, as well as several different roles that do as well. 

 

For the tanks, we have Swashbuckler and Brute. Swashbuckler brings Rogue's considerable DPS to the table, along with Fighter abilities to bolster defenses and generate an impressive amount of healing. Brute does much less damage than Swashbuckler does, but has better hit-to-crit (Especially against Near Death enemies) and access to Carnage as an AoE option. Plus, Berserker's Raw damage from Frenzy procs Unbending, which creates this feedback loop of self-healing. Both get access to Disciplined Strikes. 

 

Then from a damage dealing side, we have Marauder - which can take a few hits with things like Savage Defiance, but requires Nemnok's Cloak to reach its full potential (And the enchantments on that cloak are per rest). In exchange for that, Marauder can do insane amounts of damage. Marauder also (potentially) gains access to an affliction of all six types.

 

And then of course pure Fighter and Barbarian work too, as do certain blends of Holy Slayer - depends on the Paladin Order. 

[Metaturtle]

I think my problem is that I'm trying to evoke a certain theme. I want to play the character who leads the fray, carving a swath through the crew of an enemy ship, or going toe-to-toe with a dragon. This is a problem because there are several different multiclass options that fit that theme, as well as several different roles that do as well. 

 

For the tanks, we have Swashbuckler and Brute. Swashbuckler brings Rogue's considerable DPS to the table, along with Fighter abilities to bolster defenses and generate an impressive amount of healing. Brute does much less damage than Swashbuckler does, but has better hit-to-crit (Especially against Near Death enemies) and access to Carnage as an AoE option. Plus, Berserker's Raw damage from Frenzy procs Unbending, which creates this feedback loop of self-healing. Both get access to Disciplined Strikes. 

 

Then from a damage dealing side, we have Marauder - which can take a few hits with things like Savage Defiance, but requires Nemnok's Cloak to reach its full potential (And the enchantments on that cloak are per rest). In exchange for that, Marauder can do insane amounts of damage. Marauder also (potentially) gains access to an affliction of all six types.

 

And then of course pure Fighter and Barbarian work too, as do certain blends of Holy Slayer - depends on the Paladin Order. 

 

I'd probably go with one of the fighter mixes if it is going to be one of your stronger tanks having to face tank a battle opener.  Brute if you care about opening crowd damage burst which sounds more like the character you described and swashbuckler if you want more single target burst/sustain only because frenzy is finite.  In a party you still can have a marauder tank to a degree granted you're not going balls out with frenzy, though it sounds like you're particular about a certain damage build.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Metaturtle

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

 

I think my problem is that I'm trying to evoke a certain theme. I want to play the character who leads the fray, carving a swath through the crew of an enemy ship, or going toe-to-toe with a dragon. This is a problem because there are several different multiclass options that fit that theme, as well as several different roles that do as well. 

 

For the tanks, we have Swashbuckler and Brute. Swashbuckler brings Rogue's considerable DPS to the table, along with Fighter abilities to bolster defenses and generate an impressive amount of healing. Brute does much less damage than Swashbuckler does, but has better hit-to-crit (Especially against Near Death enemies) and access to Carnage as an AoE option. Plus, Berserker's Raw damage from Frenzy procs Unbending, which creates this feedback loop of self-healing. Both get access to Disciplined Strikes. 

 

Then from a damage dealing side, we have Marauder - which can take a few hits with things like Savage Defiance, but requires Nemnok's Cloak to reach its full potential (And the enchantments on that cloak are per rest). In exchange for that, Marauder can do insane amounts of damage. Marauder also (potentially) gains access to an affliction of all six types.

 

And then of course pure Fighter and Barbarian work too, as do certain blends of Holy Slayer - depends on the Paladin Order. 

 

I'd probably go with one of the fighter mixes if it is going to be one of your stronger tanks having to face tank a battle opener.  Brute if you care about opening crowd damage burst which sounds more like the character you described and swashbuckler if you want more single target burst/sustain only because frenzy is finite.  In a party you still can have a marauder tank to a degree granted you're not going balls out with frenzy, though it sounds like you're particular about a certain damage build.

 

 

Yeah, I'm wanting one of the Barbarian multis because not a lot of companions have access to them. Serafen can be a Single-Class Barb or a Witch, but that's it. 

[baldurs_gate_2]

Believe me one thing. I loaded a old save file from my berserker / devoted and tried the fampyr cave potd (not even upscaled) with WotP Greatsword and he did litterly no damage, because the full attacks only hits once and you have no body afflictions like a rouge has.

 

With a marauder solo, you can not beat the whole pack at once, you have to lure them away. And for some sort of bug, you can not smoke veil out of combat there.

Edited August 26, 2018 by baldurs_gate_2

[Haplok]

Devoted / Streetfighter with the Eager Blade does okay aoe damage. Extra attack on kill with Cleaving Stance, extra aoe attack when striking near death targets, 10% for double attack. Less aoe strikes, but way more damage per hit on secondary target. Frequent Overpenetration. Then there eventually is Clear Out, which is awesome for this purpose.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Haplok

[Verde]

Cyrus have you created a bunch of custom adventurers to test out your various build ideas?

Edited August 26, 2018 by Verde

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Cyrus have you created a bunch of custom adventurers to test out your various build ideas?

 

Yeah, I have. The results from my most recent test were that the Marauder actually did pretty okay with Nemnok's Cloak and Savage Defiance for survivability, though I know that's just a stopgap (Nemnok's Cloak requires a rest after every combat, or at least every major combat). The Swashbuckler meanwhile could more or less be left to do his own thing because Unbending healed him up so much. This was without a party providing buffs and support, mind you. 

 

So in a party, Marauder would do fine. But then, of course, I made a thread about soloing versus playing in a party, and which provides the more rewarding experience, so I have to decide what I want to do there before I can really commit either way. I'll repeat my concern from that thread here. I'm worried that if I play with a party of companions/sidekicks or, even moreso, a custom party, it just annihilates all of the challenge. 

[baldurs_gate_2]

 

Cyrus have you created a bunch of custom adventurers to test out your various build ideas?

 

Yeah, I have. The results from my most recent test were that the Marauder actually did pretty okay with Nemnok's Cloak and Savage Defiance for survivability, though I know that's just a stopgap (Nemnok's Cloak requires a rest after every combat, or at least every major combat). The Swashbuckler meanwhile could more or less be left to do his own thing because Unbending healed him up so much. This was without a party providing buffs and support, mind you. 

 

So in a party, Marauder would do fine. But then, of course, I made a thread about soloing versus playing in a party, and which provides the more rewarding experience, so I have to decide what I want to do there before I can really commit either way. I'll repeat my concern from that thread here. I'm worried that if I play with a party of companions/sidekicks or, even moreso, a custom party, it just annihilates all of the challenge. 

 

Ah party will definitly annihilate all of the challenge.

 

You should spawn the BoW ice dragon and fight him for real on potd upscaled solo. If you can not beat him with the right preperations on swashbuckler, he is not worth the time. You can beat him with a marauder, what i just have proven.

[Theosupus]

Party is more fun

Solo is more challenging

You can do RP builds when using a party.

for Solo you need to get specific things for specific encounters or rely on resets and splits (or avoidance)

 

The brute can be a serious tough guy that deals out the pain, with LDV & deltro's cage you can tear stuff up and are basically invincible until unbending runs out.

The marauder is not invincible due to defense but the end results he is really tough due to the speed at which he kills mobs

The swashbuckler is the tankiest and is really good at locking things down and wearing them down or holding them for others to kill. (that doesn't sound like the theme you are asking for in the other threads).

Out of them all The Brute & Marauder are the two that sound the closest to an iron reaver.
At this point you need to ask yourself whether you want more offense or more defense and take the corresponding one.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Theosupus

[Cyrus_Blackfeather]

Party is more fun

Solo is more challenging

You can do RP builds when using a party.

for Solo you need to get specific things for specific encounters or rely on resets and splits (or avoidance)

 

The brute can be a serious tough guy that deals out the pain, with LDV & deltro's cage you can tear stuff up and are basically invincible until unbending runs out.

The marauder is not invincible due to defense but the end results he is really tough due to the speed at which he kills mobs

The swashbuckler is the tankiest and is really good at locking things down and wearing them down or holding them for others to kill. (that doesn't sound like the theme you are asking for in the other threads).

 

Out of them all The Brute & Marauder are the two that sound the closest to an iron reaver.

At this point you need to ask yourself whether you want more offense or more defense and take the corresponding one.

 

Marauder, I think, would ultimately be more fun. Though how do you get Deltro's Cage Helm to work with Brute? Just never purge the Confusion from Frenzy so you're constantly shocking yourself? 

[Haplok]

Party is more fun

Solo is more challenging

You can do RP builds when using a party.

for Solo you need to get specific things for specific encounters or rely on resets and splits (or avoidance)

 

The brute can be a serious tough guy that deals out the pain, with LDV & deltro's cage you can tear stuff up and are basically invincible until unbending runs out.

The marauder is not invincible due to defense but the end results he is really tough due to the speed at which he kills mobs

The swashbuckler is the tankiest and is really good at locking things down and wearing them down or holding them for others to kill. (that doesn't sound like the theme you are asking for in the other threads).

 

Out of them all The Brute & Marauder are the two that sound the closest to an iron reaver.

At this point you need to ask yourself whether you want more offense or more defense and take the corresponding one.

 

I disagree with the assesment Swashbuckler "locking things down and wearing them or holding for others to kill". That'd be more accurate description of the Brute IMO. 

A Streetfighter Swashbuckler will deal a lot more damage then a Brute, at least prior to level 19 and Blood Thirst. But then Swash will get Clear Out at level 16 which is fun in its own way. Unbending means you can fully dump deflection, focus heavily on damage stats and even have lowish Con and still survive trough everything (barring Arcane Dampener).

 

Deltro's helm has been nerfed btw and I don't think Cyrus would get much mileage of it.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Haplok

[Theosupus]

 

Party is more fun

Solo is more challenging

You can do RP builds when using a party.

for Solo you need to get specific things for specific encounters or rely on resets and splits (or avoidance)

 

The brute can be a serious tough guy that deals out the pain, with LDV & deltro's cage you can tear stuff up and are basically invincible until unbending runs out.

The marauder is not invincible due to defense but the end results he is really tough due to the speed at which he kills mobs

The swashbuckler is the tankiest and is really good at locking things down and wearing them down or holding them for others to kill. (that doesn't sound like the theme you are asking for in the other threads).

 

Out of them all The Brute & Marauder are the two that sound the closest to an iron reaver.

At this point you need to ask yourself whether you want more offense or more defense and take the corresponding one.

 

I disagree with the assesment Swashbuckler "locking things down and wearing them or holding for others to kill". That'd be more accurate description of the Brute IMO. 

A Streetfighter Swashbuckler will deal a lot more damage then a Brute, at least prior to level 19 and Blood Thirst. But then Swash will get Clear Out at level 16 which is fun in its own way. Unbending means you can fully dump deflection, focus heavily on damage stats and even have lowish Con and still survive trough everything (barring Arcane Dampener).

 

Deltro's helm has been nerfed btw and I don't think Cyrus would get much mileage of it.

 

I said deltro's cage, not deltro's helm.

 

You need to look at specifically what he wants: A guy with LDV.

A brute will out damage a swashy with THAT item due to the difference between the level ups between barbarian and figher... it adds stacks and shocks in aoe for the barb (due to carnage applying the stacks).

Most classes can be built to do dps or tank or control That also holds true of the swash, BUT if you pigeon hole it into use of LDV the brute & Marauder will out dps.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Theosupus