The best tank in the game? Herald vs Crusader

[Stridsfordon90]

There are plenty.

 

Game is balanced to Veteran.

 

After that point, most enemies that has 12+armor class is more or less immune to DoT's.

Dragon Thrashed just works on enemies below up to 9-10 armor class. Anytning above it's just "No pen" and zero damage.

 

Raw damage is the only "dot" that works after that.

[thundercleese]

Not that I can recall, though you may for example come across a Blight party (there is one particular fight in the Undercity that comes to mind). Or some fire ummune guy may have an Earth Blight hanging around? Does anything other than Earth Blights have slash immunity?

[Stridsfordon90]

All DoTs ignore armour, so providing they aren't immune you could be better off using the Dragon Thrashed.

This is only true up-to Veteran.

 

Later on, on PoTd most enemies ignore DoT (From armor class 10-19).

Dragon Thrashed dosn't work at all. It does burn/slash damage.

Most enemies has insane armor class (14+). Only chant that works is the first one you get at level 1 that does raw damage.

[thundercleese]

 

All DoTs ignore armour, so providing they aren't immune you could be better off using the Dragon Thrashed.

This is only true up-to Veteran.

 

Later on, on PoTd most enemies ignore DoT (From armor class 10-19).

Dragon Thrashed dosn't work at all. It does burn/slash damage.

Most enemies has insane armor class (14+). Only chant that works is the first one you get at level 1 that does raw damage.

 

The combat log begs to differ.

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Actually, after further testing and observing the damage numbers displayed over their heads it looks like armour does reduce the damage of DoTs. Would be great if this was reflected in the combat log...

Edited August 11, 2018 by thundercleese

[Malkoy]

If memory serves me right Paladin has Stacking armor buff that goes forever late game for as long as he/she doesn't move? Brand Enemy can be buffed a bit with Scion (+1pen), and it's innate ArPen scales with level also.
 
Chants have piss poor descriptions, so without testing it would be hard to say what their ArPen amounts are and whether they scale well.
 

Edited August 11, 2018 by Malkoy

[Boeroer]

Stoic Steel has a cap of +3. It's not limitless. However, it stacks with everything (also other passives that do +AR like Thick Skinned), so: not bad.

[Malkoy]

Goldpact Paladin in Patinated Plate with Gilded Enmity after 18 seconds of staying still:

 

[brasilgringo]

My devouted/trickster crithunter is pretty tanky:

* 22 Swashbuckler

* 57 level

* 10 resolve

* 20 Refreshing Defense

*   4 Tuotilos

*   8 Legendard (Tuotilos)

*   7 Cloak

*   6 Weapon+Shield Style

*   4 Superior Deflection

* 30 deflection from Mirrored Image

---

168

 

Could be pushed to more with rest and escort bonus, items etc, but the main focus was high crits. Also persistent distraction could be considered another +5 bonus (debuffs engaged enemies perception). Double chance for riposte (rogue+shield), high base penetration and better crits for weapon and shield from devoted (interestingly, devoted is proficient in hand to hand from monastic training AND weapon of choice). Natural crits are only about 1/5 due to low accuracy (124/128 without buffs) but due to several sources of hit to crit (orlan, ring, hat, feats), and auto flanked condition the actual crit rate is a lot better. Also high penetration + crit -> overpenetration, and crits are quite good (+95% due to feats, items, devoted).

 

I was getting around this deflection on my Unbroken/Trickster (Def. 169)  and I still couldn't solo tank the Famypr cave (they were hitting me enough to get thru, especially if I got flanked).  Even chugging potions and castin a few Moonwells (where the Deflection was supressed for some reason) didn't allow me to kill them all before they killed me.  Nemnok cave facetanking was slightly better but still not easy.   I could really use some help finding a better build that won't get hit - it seems on PoTD they crank up enemy to-hits so much .... also Mirrored goes away after even 1 hit gets thru .  

[brasilgringo]

Goldpact Paladin in Patinated Plate with Gilded Enmity after 18 seconds of staying still:

 

 

Can you explain:

 

1) Why you like Patinated Plate so much vs. say Reckless Brigandine -- is it just you wanting to stack AR as high as possible without +dmg / + action / + engagment slots?  How do you keep mobs engaged? (enough mobs)?  Are you using the stun-enchant for this armor (and which one) - it is worth it?

 

2) Isn't Gilded Enmity just a sort of recastable version of Ironskin?  Why not just use Ironskin potions and go Bleak Walker?  Is it because Ironskin can be dispellled but Gilded can't (though it wears off after a few hits)?

 

3) Even with the higher AR, aren't you still getting hit too much unless you stack Deflection to (somehow) 180+?  (PoTD).   See my other posts about not being able to facetank at 169-ish.  Are you able to heal thru the hits enough with Lay on Hands?

 

4) How are you doing respectable damage when so slowed down by Patinated, sheild, etc.?  FoD competes for resources with Gilded recasts right?

 

5) Can you talk about your stat spread?  I went 18/8/8/10/18/18 (I think) on my last tank attempt (+2 Berath's on top of that) and the low Dex and Perception were really noticeable, especially on Pen issues vs the Fampyrs and higher level mobs.

 

Thanks.

[thundercleese]

 

My devouted/trickster crithunter is pretty tanky:

* 22 Swashbuckler

* 57 level

* 10 resolve

* 20 Refreshing Defense

*   4 Tuotilos

*   8 Legendard (Tuotilos)

*   7 Cloak

*   6 Weapon+Shield Style

*   4 Superior Deflection

* 30 deflection from Mirrored Image

---

168

 

Could be pushed to more with rest and escort bonus, items etc, but the main focus was high crits. Also persistent distraction could be considered another +5 bonus (debuffs engaged enemies perception). Double chance for riposte (rogue+shield), high base penetration and better crits for weapon and shield from devoted (interestingly, devoted is proficient in hand to hand from monastic training AND weapon of choice). Natural crits are only about 1/5 due to low accuracy (124/128 without buffs) but due to several sources of hit to crit (orlan, ring, hat, feats), and auto flanked condition the actual crit rate is a lot better. Also high penetration + crit -> overpenetration, and crits are quite good (+95% due to feats, items, devoted).

 

I was getting around this deflection on my Unbroken/Trickster (Def. 169)  and I still couldn't solo tank the Famypr cave (they were hitting me enough to get thru, especially if I got flanked).  Even chugging potions and castin a few Moonwells (where the Deflection was supressed for some reason) didn't allow me to kill them all before they killed me.  Nemnok cave facetanking was slightly better but still not easy.   I could really use some help finding a better build that won't get hit - it seems on PoTD they crank up enemy to-hits so much .... also Mirrored goes away after even 1 hit gets thru .  

 

Most active buffs that provide bonuses to the same stats don't stack. See this thread here. IIRC PotD provides all enemies with +15 to all defenses and accuracy, +2 armour and penetration, and presumably bonus health (no easy way to see this in game however). I don't solo (this is a party game after all) so someone else will have to chime in there.

Edited August 13, 2018 by thundercleese

[Tommy1984]

I was getting around this deflection on my Unbroken/Trickster (Def. 169)  and I still couldn't solo tank the Famypr cave (they were hitting me enough to get thru, especially if I got flanked).  Even chugging potions and castin a few Moonwells (where the Deflection was supressed for some reason) didn't allow me to kill them all before they killed me.  Nemnok cave facetanking was slightly better but still not easy.   I could really use some help finding a better build that won't get hit - it seems on PoTD they crank up enemy to-hits so much .... also Mirrored goes away after even 1 hit gets thru .

 

As I completed my PotD Solo (Triple Crown + Magran Challenge + Berath Challenge) playthrough recently, I can share my experience with a herald. A had around 130-140 deflection, build focus was healing with Ancient Memory / Exalted Endurance and killing with summons. Nemnok is easy - there you can facetank everything. Fampyr Cave / Splintered Reef are more complicated, because you need Acolyte's Frostbite for free Concentration and Modwyr for Intellect affliction immunity. Getting Charmed/Dominated is annoying, because the Enemy AI often changes your Paladin Aura ... so you have to switch your weapon sets a little bit. Sometimes when you get damage spikes you need Greater Lay on Hand or Healing Potions, but in general its really easy with this class. It is not a build that won't get hit, but it is a build that survives this kind of stuff.

[Malkoy]

 

I was getting around this deflection on my Unbroken/Trickster (Def. 169)  and I still couldn't solo tank the Famypr cave (they were hitting me enough to get thru, especially if I got flanked).  Even chugging potions and castin a few Moonwells (where the Deflection was supressed for some reason) didn't allow me to kill them all before they killed me.  Nemnok cave facetanking was slightly better but still not easy.   I could really use some help finding a better build that won't get hit - it seems on PoTD they crank up enemy to-hits so much .... also Mirrored goes away after even 1 hit gets thru .

 

As I completed my PotD Solo (Triple Crown + Magran Challenge + Berath Challenge) playthrough recently, I can share my experience with a herald. A had around 130-140 deflection, build focus was healing with Ancient Memory / Exalted Endurance and killing with summons. Nemnok is easy - there you can facetank everything. Fampyr Cave / Splintered Reef are more complicated, because you need Acolyte's Frostbite for free Concentration and Modwyr for Intellect affliction immunity. Getting Charmed/Dominated is annoying, because the Enemy AI often changes your Paladin Aura ... so you have to switch your weapon sets a little bit. Sometimes when you get damage spikes you need Greater Lay on Hand or Healing Potions, but in general its really easy with this class. It is not a build that won't get hit, but it is a build that survives this kind of stuff.

 

 

Cap's Banquet would be easier to get then leveling Modwyr

[thundercleese]

There's also a drink (Wael's something) that gives int affliction immunity at the cost of I think -1 DEX. Easier and cheaper to get than captains banquet, however if you are solo and/or don't need to rest then yeah banquet is better.

[Tommy1984]

There's also a drink (Wael's something) that gives int affliction immunity at the cost of I think -1 DEX. Easier and cheaper to get than captains banquet, however if you are solo and/or don't need to rest then yeah banquet is better.

 

No, captains banquet was not an option, Intellect affliction are too situational - so its not worth to use your food bonus on these ... Modwyr is enough. Best immunity food for herald class is Shark Soup (+2 Might, +1 All Power Levels, Immune to Constitution afflictions, Immune to Dexterity afflictions, Immune to Might afflictions), because reduced healing from constitution affliction is one of the only things that can kill you, also dexterity/might afflictions are bad, because Stunned/Paralyzed stops your chanting. But in my playthrough I used Hylea's Bounty (+10 all defenses, +2 all skills, 25% max health) with stacked rest bonuses (like Dawnstar's blessing ... see my guide).

Edited August 13, 2018 by Tommy1984

[Lampros]

 

A point is that he's the stickiest tank there is - and that can be a big advantage.

 

The priest is a caster and that's a huge advantage compared to a pure melee class like the unbroken/pally. But don't neglect the permanent +4/+1 AR you receive. Few monsters have 16/17 pen and with the absurd amount of deflection you have they can't crit you so no overpenetration is possible. And it doesn't matter if you have 120 def or 250 if they can't hit you. Grazes are nothing and constant recovery deal with the pitiful damage mobs can do.

 

Another thing you are forgetting are the engagement slots. +3 from fighter stance, +1 from unbroken +1 from shield, +1 from hold the line. I don't know other players but I abuse this from partial party stealth to grab the highest amount of mobs I can before starting the real combat. If you talk about theorycraft of the highest def tank you can build I agree with your post. But it's a fact that the crusader is the toughest class in terms of prolonged tanking.

 

I'm not saying a pally/priest is not a good class. Every class with paladin + whatever you like has good defensive capabilities. And if you can heal/buff at the same time you tank it's quite a good combination. But as I said it's not deflection what makes you a good tank or not, it's the amount of mobs you can disable from attacking your squishies and in this role the crusader is the king of kings.

 

 

This discussion has also inspired me to run a pure tank - instead of 2 melee DPS/off-tanks - to see 1) if I do save others from damage; and 2) if fights are longer with dedicated tanks or not.

[Lampros]

Best tank is kinda moot by definition.

I guess, one that can take most damage without dying?

 

Best tank in RPGs is usually defined first and foremost as the character that can prevent monsters from attacking the non-tank ("hold aggro" - in MMORPG parlance). Survivability is secondary - though not unimportant.

[Kaylon]

 

Best tank is kinda moot by definition.

I guess, one that can take most damage without dying?

 

Best tank in RPGs is usually defined first and foremost as the character that can prevent monsters from attacking the non-tank ("hold aggro" - in MMORPG parlance). Survivability is secondary - though not unimportant.

 

No, that's the MMO definition. Best tank means the character with the best survivability.

[Boeroer]

Questionable if that is "best" for somebody's overall party performance though.

 

Extreme example: a tank who can't die but gets ignored by enemies and can't prevent enemies from engaging over party members (basically a withdrawn char). When he can block a chokepoint that's great. For all other situations that would be a useless character. As useless as an extreme glass cannon that goes down after one attack. Having both in the team just blocks 2 character slots.

 

That would not meet my definition of "best tank". So maybe if one wants to know what the "best tank" is he/she should define what he/she means by "best".

 

For example for me a good tank for a party is one that not only can survive but also contributes to the performance of the party in some other way, be it healing, support/buffs, CC or damage. Binding lots of enemies is a CC effect for me. A strong one.

[Kaylon]

Questionable if that is "best" for somebody's overall party performance though.

 

Extreme example: a tank who can't die but gets ignored by enemies and can't prevent enemies from engaging over party members (basically a withdrawn char). When he can block a chokepoint that's great. For all other situations that would be a useless character. As useless as an extreme glass cannon that goes down after one attack. Having both in the team just blocks 2 character slots.

 

That would not meet my definition of "best tank". So maybe if one wants to know what the "best tank" is he/she should define what he/she means by "best".

 

For example for me a good tank for a party is one that not only can survive but also contributes to the performance of the party in some other way, be it healing, support/buffs, CC or damage. Binding lots of enemies is a CC effect for me. A strong one.

You can argue all you want about cc, damage or who adds more utility to a party but that's not tanking. A tank, as its name implies, should be an almost indestructible character.

[Lampros]

Questionable if that is "best" for somebody's overall party performance though.

 

Extreme example: a tank who can't die but gets ignored by enemies and can't prevent enemies from engaging over party members (basically a withdrawn char). When he can block a chokepoint that's great. For all other situations that would be a useless character. As useless as an extreme glass cannon that goes down after one attack. Having both in the team just blocks 2 character slots.

 

That would not meet my definition of "best tank". So maybe if one wants to know what the "best tank" is he/she should define what he/she means by "best".

 

For example for me a good tank for a party is one that not only can survive but also contributes to the performance of the party in some other way, be it healing, support/buffs, CC or damage. Binding lots of enemies is a CC effect for me. A strong one.

 

Seems like my viewpoint is the mid-point of yours and Kaylon's

[Lampros]

Addendum:

 

I don't like to use Wikipedia as a final authority on anything except clear facts such as dates, but nonetheless it's a good starting point. And here's it's definition:

 

"A common convention in real-time strategy games, role-playing games, fighting games, multiplayer online battle arenas and MUDs, tanks redirect enemy attacks or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Since this role often requires them to suffer large amounts of damage, they rely on large amounts of vitality or armor, healing by other party members, evasiveness and misdirection, or self regeneration."

 

So it includes both viewpoints, but it seems to accord primacy to the "aggro holding" part.

[Boeroer]

But you heard Kaylon: no need to argue - since his word is law.

 

So let's not waste our reasonable arguments here.

[Kaylon]

But you heard Kaylon: no need to argue - since his word is law.

 

So let's not waste our reasonable arguments here.

Sorry, I forgot your word was law here... 

 

Addendum:

 

I don't like to use Wikipedia as a final authority on anything except clear facts such as dates, but nonetheless it's a good starting point. And here's it's definition:

 

"A common convention in real-time strategy games, role-playing games, fighting games, multiplayer online battle arenas and MUDs, tanks redirect enemy attacks or attention toward themselves in order to protect other characters or units. Since this role often requires them to suffer large amounts of damage, they rely on large amounts of vitality or armor, healing by other party members, evasiveness and misdirection, or self regeneration."

 

So it includes both viewpoints, but it seems to accord primacy to the "aggro holding" part.

Of course the tank has the role to protect - but the "aggro" part comes from mmorpgs. In single player games you shouldn't have problems protecting the other characters using strategic positioning or careful pulling and being a wall between enemies and your party. Only in mmorpgs the game tracks the "aggro" generated by each character and the tanks need artificial abilities to increase their "aggro" because they can't do damage.

[Boeroer]

If I thought that my word was law I wouldn't want to discuss the matter, would I?

[Kaylon]

If I thought that my word was law I wouldn't want to discuss the matter, would I?

No, because you always like to have the last word.