I just have to share what happens..

[Dorftek]

When u put the AoE Poleaxe on a singleclass Barb.. It's hilarious!

 

[mosspit]

I guess it's related to this bug report?

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/103080-wahai-poraga-bug/

[Dorftek]

I guess it's related to this bug report?

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/103080-wahai-poraga-bug/

I was not aware, however it's impossible to tell when u use heart of fury because it will generate so many hits.

 

If the guy in the bug report is using any kind of recovery refresh such as bloodthirst or the upgraded barbaric blow it will just instantly attack again but the animation is too slow to keep up so it looks like one hit

Edited June 30, 2018 by Dorftek

[dunehunter]

Check my reply to that thread, I’m not sure if your character is a monk or not, because if u have Swift Flurry and Heartbeat drumming that axe works like melee version of frostseeker atm.

[Boeroer]

He is a single class Barb who uses Heart of Fury with the Pollaxe. Same result with a consoled Spirit Lance + HoF.

 

The pollaxe does its circular attack on every enemy in HoF range. I suppose it also works with Vengeful Defeat. So a suicide Wizard/Barb with Citzal's + Vengeful Defeat + Second Chance might be possible.

 

I didn't try WotEP - if it behaves the same way or not with the cone. I guess not.

 

And yes: the pollaxe hits always all enemies in range, not only two additional as the description says. The range is not being altered by overseeing or INT.

 

Funnily enough the pollaxe does not do its AoE attack with Flagellant's Path (1.1).

 

Also Wahaī Pōraga + Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming still proc endless crit chain if you only get enough enemies in range.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Boeroer

[Esajin]

In this video on the bug report I just used an autoattack with a single class fighter. There are no hidden tricks. Either you're surrounded and the wahai poraga keeps dealing damage "until you're no longer surrounded", or you're not surrounded and wahai poraga only attacks once or twice.

 

 

Maybe I should record it again this time without cleave stance

[AndreaColombo]

Ah, so Cleaving Stance still possibly proc’s itself... Interesting...

Edited July 1, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[Boeroer]

I guess they didn't change the "procs off itself" problem at all. They just made sure that it's less likely to happen (=reducing chances with Swift Flurry and only let cleaving stance attack one additional target only). But if you use AoE melee weapon attacks + enough enemies (hello Pull of Eora + Binding Web) it still will happen. Just did it wirth Xoti + Wahai Poraga and several Rotghasts: one-shot.

 

So it seems the recursive problem is hard to fix...? 

Edited July 1, 2018 by Boeroer

[Esajin]

Here's another showcase/test

 

 

First weapon attack is made in Defender Stance, it kills the Eoten and stops, basically.

 

Then I go gather more mobs to setup a Mob Stance test, and each mob stance also triggers the bonkers AOE.

 

Just watch the first 3 minutes, the rest of the video is just me finishing the Steelclad construct naked.

 

Some funny observations: Mob Stance works really well since 1.1, because "Mob Stance" attacks are abilities, so they benefit from Fighter Power Level, which helps a ton to make it proc off itself due to the increased damage roll and accuracy.

 

If you thought the discipline buff to Unbending was fine, it's not. My build-in-progress didn't need it

 

Now my character is godlike, what's the point ?

Edited July 1, 2018 by Esajin

[Boeroer]

It seems to be a bug of Wahai Proraga that somehow doesn't stop attacking when too many enemies are near. At some point it gets confused with its "only attack 2 additional targets" mechanic. Good bug find!

[Archaven]

holy shiiit.. they still haven't fix it? really so hard to not proc the the proc-ed attack?. they remove swift flurry for range due to this. so what's next? swift flurry out of the game? wondering if the proc chance is still 33% in 1.1? i find myself proc-ed few times only in my entire playthrough. very high PER with min's fortune, swift flurry and is a hearth orlan. i thought it was severely nerfed already.

[MaxQuest]

And that's why you always stay away from recursive scenarios in video games...

No matter the proc chance.

[Kaylon]

Making a kill triggers a mob stance attack, nothing wrong here - the problem comes obviously from the weapon AoE which is bugged. (Personally I'm suspecting the AoE attacks trigger themselves other AoE attacks). 

[Boeroer]

Yes, that is one big problem and the most important problem here. Another one (that is not so important here and is getting obscured by the bugged weapon) is that attacks (let's call is a cleave) that are done by Cleaving Stance/Mob Stance and kill enemies trigger another cleave and so on. Now with the reduction to only one additional Full Attack per cleave it isn't that obvious anymore, but it's still a problem. Not such a big one as Swift Flurry + Heartbeat Drumming + Wahai Poraga/Citzal's Spirit Lance though (which still one-shots mobs).

[dunehunter]

Obsidian: we fixed the bug that there are too few bugs!

[Boeroer]

The "problem" with nerfing the possiblilty of recursive procs happing (lowering chances of first proc and removing it from ranged weapons which have more AoE uniques) is that it nerfs the ability for the normal player who doesn't abuse it and doesn't build around it so that it becomes unattractive - while the powergamer/munchkin still abuses it. Because it doesn't matter how nerfed it is for the usual player as long as you can make it happen. 

 

It's not a very solid balancing approach to lower Swift Flurry from 50% to 33% and just hope that the issue is fixed then... (while introducing another ability that adds a 25% chance). It's a quick and dirty at best. 

[mosspit]

Sigh, I was keen on doing a new playthrough on 1.2 with a Monk and Serafen wielding Wahai Proraga.

 

With this bug and the fact they completely broke Rooting Pain (instead of 25%, it is completely disabled and doesn't trigger now). I don't think I can stomach these kind of issues.

 

I really hope Obs can do something about them before public release, and not go through the whole Confident Aim fiasco again...

Edited July 1, 2018 by mosspit

[Archaven]

And that's why you always stay away from recursive scenarios in video games...

No matter the proc chance.

 

I would say fix the secondary proc. Do not allow the the proc-ed to meet the requirement for proccing like the primary attack. Also make the proc chance lowering each time and then reset by itself again. Also max proc limit within x seconds. All these can be fine tuned in my opinion.  In my opinion, just remove infinite proccing and dont remove proccing mechanism.

 

For example, 33% first proc, 25% proc, 17% , 9% chance. After 6s chance reset to 33% and so on. No secondary proc (where the proc hit can proc again). This is just my suggestion. Of course they can play around by fine-tuning the proccing algorithm.

 

Games like DOTA has proccing algorithm so that this kind of thing doesnt happen.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Archaven

[Esajin]

Another way to do it is to use the entropy system that the other PoE (Path of Exiles) uses:

 

 

Evasion is not purely based on chance in the sense that each hit is independent. Instead, it uses a system of "entropy" to ensure that enemies won't get long strings of hits or misses by chance.^[2] To summarize, these are the calculation steps in each attack:

1. If it is first time an entity is attacked or if the time between the last attack and this one is larger than 6 seconds, randomise the entropy from 0–99.
2. Calculate chance to hit of the attacker using the above formula, and add this integer to the entropy counter.
3. If this is 100 or greater, the check counts as a hit. Subtract 100 from the entropy counter. Otherwise it is a miss and the entropy counter doesn't change.
4. A critical hit is evaded on a separate random roll and will not affect this entropy value.

This system is designed to evenly spread out hits and misses such that players always evade an average number of times according to their ‘chance’ to evade. It is still based on chance because of the entropy counter's randomization in the first step. Note that if multiple mobs are attacking one character, all of the mobs' attacks share the same entropy counter.^[3] Also note that the chance to evade calculation on the character page is based on the average accuracy of a monster at the player's level.

 

from https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Evasion

 

Basically with that system a 20% proc will literally happen once and only once every 5 attacks. It's much easier to balance proc stacking that way.

[mosspit]

Not to be snark or whatever. But if there is already an issue with things like changing a proc rate to 25% breaking skills to lead to completely unusable state (no hyperbole here), I have no confidence in suggesting to add another layer of complexity in the RNG management.

Edited July 1, 2018 by mosspit

[Archaven]

Another way to do it is to use the entropy system that the other PoE (Path of Exiles) uses:

 

 

Evasion is not purely based on chance in the sense that each hit is independent. Instead, it uses a system of "entropy" to ensure that enemies won't get long strings of hits or misses by chance.^[2] To summarize, these are the calculation steps in each attack:

1. If it is first time an entity is attacked or if the time between the last attack and this one is larger than 6 seconds, randomise the entropy from 0–99.
2. Calculate chance to hit of the attacker using the above formula, and add this integer to the entropy counter.
3. If this is 100 or greater, the check counts as a hit. Subtract 100 from the entropy counter. Otherwise it is a miss and the entropy counter doesn't change.
4. A critical hit is evaded on a separate random roll and will not affect this entropy value.

This system is designed to evenly spread out hits and misses such that players always evade an average number of times according to their ‘chance’ to evade. It is still based on chance because of the entropy counter's randomization in the first step. Note that if multiple mobs are attacking one character, all of the mobs' attacks share the same entropy counter.^[3] Also note that the chance to evade calculation on the character page is based on the average accuracy of a monster at the player's level.

 

from https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Evasion

 

Basically with that system a 20% proc will literally happen once and only once every 5 attacks. It's much easier to balance proc stacking that way.

 

if it only happen once every 5 attacks then it's flawed in deadfire system. as it favors full attack. not to mention on the recovery which really makes proccing not that interesting. on the other hand instead of nerfing full attack, i hope obsidian can be more positive and constructive by giving similar full attacks to 2Handed, 1Handed and 1Handed+Shield.

 

Not to be snark or whatever. But if there is already an issue with things like changing a proc rate to 25% breaking skills to lead to completely unusable state (no hyperbole here), I have no confidence in suggesting to add another layer of complexity in the RNG management.

 

i agree with you there. i would vote for fixing unlimited procs (like i said procs attack should not entitle to be procced again). and obsidian can fine tune the proccing to make it not badly overpowered nor overnerfed which might as well don't have it at all.

[MaxQuest]

So it seems the recursive problem is hard to fix...?

They didn't mention they fixed the Mob Stance recursion in changelog

To be precise v1.1.0 writes:

- Mob Stance - Only strikes a single enemy per kill.

- Swift Flurry will no longer recursively proc infinitely.

 

So Mob Stance is still recursive, just the chance of recursion happening was heavily and indirectly decreased. But Waha Poraga doesn't case)

The 2 extra attacks on adjacent targets seem to also trigger Mob Stance proc.

 

Since they were able to fix Swift Flurry recursion, I think it would be nice to do so for Mob Stance as well.

If an attack is originated from Mob Stance (or has Mob Stance in it's, uhm, stacktrace) - it should not trigger further Mob Stance procs.

 

And if it no longer be recursive, it can even perhaps be buffed to hit up to 2 adjacent enemies on kill...

 

Games like DOTA has proccing algorithm so that this kind of thing doesnt happen.

Yeah, Dota uses PRD for procs now.

 

I would say fix the secondary proc. Do not allow the the proc-ed to meet the requirement for proccing like the primary attack.

That would solve it, yes)

But it would hurt a bit when you use weapons with procs.

For example a Mob Stance generated attack hits an adjacent target, but your weapon proc/effect/debuff, won't trigger because it's a secondary effect.

And there is no recursion in this specific scenario, nor balance-threat, thus I think it should be allowed...

 

I think allowing chain-proccing should be examined on per-case basis. While recursion should be always eliminated.

Btw, since you have mentioned Dota, imagine what happens when two tethered Wisps with "Attack Tethered Ally's Target" talent attack same target ^^

Or what happened with recursive blade mails, or cross-tether regen, before they fixed it)

Edited July 1, 2018 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

I tested Swift Flurry + Heartbeat Drumming with Spirit Lance yesterday and it still procs endlessly. Might be only Heartbeat Drumming though. But seriously: if they fix it on Swift Flurry but leave Heartbeat Drumming untouched then I really have to question their intellect. Affliction maybe? Confused seems to fit...

 

It should be easy to tag an attack with a certain label, let's say "bonus attack" in this case if it's from Swift Flurry, Heartbeat Drumming or Cleave. And once a method/function checks if a bonus attack may proc it can see if it's tagged with "bonus attack" already and can cancel. Other labels like let's say "afflction attached" may pass and lead to a proc.

 

I do such things all the time with decorators - but I'm pretty sure that's not the way to go in a video game because of performance issues. But I guess there's a decent way to do it that doesn't drop the performance. Like - implementing a certain set of interfaces or whatever "not so flexible but fast" solution there is.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Boeroer

[Dorftek]

I'm gonna suggest it again, an internal cooldown on the proc at maybe 0.5sec will stop it from chaining off itself.

 

However in the video on the OP I was a singleclass barbarian using heart of fury. The only issue in there is that the poleaxe seems to be bugged from the beta patch and hits more targets then intended and therefor releasing a buttload of AoEs when I activate heart of fury with that many targets around me. Meanwhile I am swinging keep in mind that my deflection is very low and whenever an enemy crits me in melee I will realese another heart of fury.

 

Heart of Fury with Frostseeker or a rod with modal on is also very fun BTW

[Kaylon]

This discussion has become really surrealistic...   When the weapon is obviously the problem, people are discussing how they should nerf Cleaving Stance further. 

It's like finding a weapon allowing to OS every enemy and the game and people are concluding the might adds too much damage and should be nerfed...