petition to make 2 handed weapons relevant

[Taevyr]

[Boeroer]

2H weapons are relevant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhNxSBvqlvE

ROFL.

 

"Look, when I juggle overripe avocados with rubber gloves then it's no disadvantage that I have no legs. It's a myth that having no legs is a disadvantage when being a circus artist."

 

Not to forget that the main problem of Two Handers vs Dual Wielding is not auto-attacks (or Primary Attacks) but FULL Attacks. It's the Full Attacks that make two handers strictly worse. Then at least they should be better with auto-attacks in general to balance that, shouldn't they? Or they should add something that makes them Superior to dual Wielding in some cases. +1 PEN is a first step and maybe it's sufficient. At least at PoTD it can be an advantage.

[mant2si]

 

2H weapons are relevant

...

ROFL.

 

"Look, when I juggle overripe avocados with rubber gloves then it's no disadvantage that I have no legs. It's a myth that having no legs is a disadvantage when being a circus artist."

 

Not to forget that the main problem of Two Handers vs Dual Wielding is not auto-attacks (or Primary Attacks) but FULL Attacks. It's the Full Attacks that make two handers strictly worse. Then at least they should be better with auto-attacks in general to balance that, shouldn't they? Or they should add something that makes them Superior to dual Wielding in some cases. +1 PEN is a first step and maybe it's sufficient. At least at PoTD it can be an advantage.

 

They can add AOE for full attack for all big size weapons, nerf monk Stunning Surge mortification recovery, make crippling strike primary attack, and add bigger DM bonus to carnage

Edited July 8, 2018 by mant2si

[TT1]

I am working with this AOE full attack and I'll add this to all 2H weapons as soon as I figure out how to do it.

 

I asked BMac if its possible to have multiple modals (devs have to change a property on the code). My idea is to add a AOE modal with -10 accuracy. If its not possible, I will add an ability to perform an aoe attack, like 3 times per encounter.

[mant2si]

I am working with this AOE full attack and I'll add this to all 2H weapons as soon as I figure out how to do it.

 

I asked BMac if its possible to have multiple modals (devs have to change a property on the code). My idea is to add a AOE modal with -10 accuracy. If its not possible, I will add an ability to perform an aoe attack, like 3 times per encounter.

Yep, good Idea, maybe you can replace all existed modals and make all of them do AOE damage with cost of accuracy (as first step)

You can always replace all 2H items :D

 

Great Sword will do 90DEG attack with 33% DM 

Estocs will do 90DEG attack with 40% DM

Pollaxe will do 360DEG attack with AOE 25% DM (Make all of them use Wahai Pōraga animtaion)

Pike will hit 2 random target near your primary target 33% DM

Morning star, Quarterstaff will do 180DEG attack 25% DM 

 

Then we need mod which will replace monk crit -> hit abilities and stunning blows, and change spirit lance and Wahai Pōraga which attack multiple target 

Edited July 8, 2018 by mant2si

[Zelse]

Chromoprismatic Quarterstaff + the 2H helmet is already good enough. Especially for fighters and spamming knockdown.

 

The problem is that the quality of 2H weapons is just so much lower than the average quality of 1H weapons throughout the majority of the game (i.e. uniques) AND you get to wield 2 unique 1H at the same time so you get to stack more passives which is really important!

 

There are like 2 good 2H besides chromo? Effort after enchanting is okay but since it is lategame too you might as well just get chromo instead..

Blade of the endless paths is the only decent early game 2H and compared to some of the early game 1H its just meh...

 

tl;dr the problem with 2H is the quality of uniques compared to wielding 2 unique 1H.

 

edit: I always considered characters with a focus on "full attacks" (compared to fighter with a focus on primary and mob stance) to basically be made for dual wielding anyway so i dont really see the problem there. I think its intentionally made more valuable to use full attacks while dual wielding. The game is a bit focused on full attacks for most abilities tho, thats a fair point.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Zelse

[grasida]

It’s not just the game is a little too focused on full attacks, every single martial class has a spammable full attack that either costs one resource or has a chance to generate resources equal to its cost. On top of those, the vast majority of high tier weapon skills are full attacks. The skill trees of martial characters have a ridiculous prejudice towards two weapon fighting. Remember, there is no comparable advantage for other fighting styles to full attacks. Dual wielders still deal at least as much damage with torment’s reach, mule kick or soul annihilation as users of other styles. The only advantage the others have with primary attacks is damage per resources spent efficiency, which pales in comparison to double damage or two chances to apply an on attack effect on skills like toxic strike.

 

Clear out is an example of a good, powerful primary attack that’s more effective than full attacks and just expensive enough to justify the higher efficiency of a two-hander or single weapon style. If obsidian isn’t going to change the nature of full attacks, they should change most of the existing full attacks to primary attacks and buff them considerably, while increasing resource costs where appropriate.

[Zelse]

 every single martial class has a spammable full attack that either costs one resource or has a chance to generate resources equal to its cost.

Neither fighter nor monk have a good spammable full attack?

 

Penetrating strike is terrible and costs 2 if i remember correctly. Stunning blow competes with swift strikes (10secs really isnt all that long on POTD in the few hard fights) and costs 2 as well. 

 

Am i missing something?

[gkathellar]

Neither fighter nor monk have a good spammable full attack?

 

Penetrating strike is terrible and costs 2 if i remember correctly. Stunning blow competes with swift strikes (10secs really isnt all that long on POTD in the few hard fights) and costs 2 as well.

 

Penetrating strike costs 1, gets +20% bonus damage, and has an easier time getting overpenetration. That's ... that's pretty good.

 

Stunning Blow "competes" with Swift Strikes about as much as any self-buff competes with Full Attacks - that is to say, you use them both and you wish you had more.

 

The only class that labors to keep up in this regard is Barbarian, whose lowest level full attack actually does cost 2. But, you know ... Carnage.

[Zelse]

 

Neither fighter nor monk have a good spammable full attack?

 

Penetrating strike is terrible and costs 2 if i remember correctly. Stunning blow competes with swift strikes (10secs really isnt all that long on POTD in the few hard fights) and costs 2 as well.

 

Penetrating strike costs 1, gets +20% bonus damage, and has an easier time getting overpenetration. That's ... that's pretty good.

 

Stunning Blow "competes" with Swift Strikes about as much as any self-buff competes with Full Attacks - that is to say, you use them both and you wish you had more.

 

The only class that labors to keep up in this regard is Barbarian, whose lowest level full attack actually does cost 2. But, you know ... Carnage.

 

Whoops my bad then if its 1 discipline but still..

 

+4 Pen on POTD is/*was* useless most of the time. Stacking Pen in general is useless most of the time since getting DOUBLE the enemies armor is/*was* just insanely unrealistic. Like if your enemy has 10 armor (pretty average for POTD) you still would have to have 16!!!! base pen before penetrating strike does anything useful. With the reworked Chanter debuff in 1.2 its more achievable but before that it was just completely dead value. 

edit: Thinking about it.. with the chanter change it might actually be really fking good now and worth using over knockdown . 11base pen for legendairy sabres + 2 from food + 4 from pen strike puts you at 17 against (10-2)*2 armor. Seems legit. Its still poop against 11 or more armor tho...

 

If you dont get overpen youre left with 20% dmg vs +10acc and knockdown. Its less poop if its only 1 discipline so thats fair buuuut meeeeh...

 

The special thing about swift strike is that it is particularly SHORT and particularly GOOD especially when upgraded. So you really never want to run out. The difficult fights tend to last longer.

 

Barb i actually think that the pure value of barbaric blow more than makes up for the cost. + frenzy has pretty good duration.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Zelse

[TT1]

I need your help.

 

I could make an ability like Carnage (For every successful melee attack, the attacker makes reduced-damage (33%) attacks at all other enemies within a short distance of the target) and modded into one of my weapons. I'll attach it here.

 

I'm not sure if its too overpower. Can you download it and try, please? Feedback is appreciated. If its fine, I will use this mod in all 2H weapons.

 

 

PS: you may need to download my original mod here: https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/111

itemfrostburn.zip

Edited July 8, 2018 by TT1

[Zelse]

I need your help.

 

I could make an ability like Carnage (For every successful melee attack, the attacker makes reduced-damage (33%) attacks at all other enemies within a short distance of the target)  and modded into one of my weapons. I'll attach it here.

 

I'm not sure if its too overpower. Can you download it and try, please? Feedback is appreciated. If its fine, I will use this mod in all 2H weapons.

Everything that is an aoe attack is game breaking op right now if it procs anything else (see page 4). 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Zelse

[Teacher]

If 2h full attacks could compete somehow with dual full attacks I'd use them. As is, backstabbing with WotEP's run through is the only use I have for 2h weapons.

[mant2si]

I need your help.

 

I could make an ability like Carnage (For every successful melee attack, the attacker makes reduced-damage (33%) attacks at all other enemies within a short distance of the target) and modded into one of my weapons. I'll attach it here.

 

I'm not sure if its too overpower. Can you download it and try, please? Feedback is appreciated. If its fine, I will use this mod in all 2H weapons.

 

 

PS: you may need to download my original mod here: https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/111

Thanks, I will test this tomorrow with DD mod on, I'm already record video with WotEP so I can compare clear up speed for Queen fight :D

 

 

I need your help.

 

I could make an ability like Carnage (For every successful melee attack, the attacker makes reduced-damage (33%) attacks at all other enemies within a short distance of the target)  and modded into one of my weapons. I'll attach it here.

 

I'm not sure if its too overpower. Can you download it and try, please? Feedback is appreciated. If its fine, I will use this mod in all 2H weapons.

Everything that is an aoe attack is game breaking op right now if it procs anything else (see page 4). 

 

 

Only with monks skills combination. For all other classes 60 - 75% damage reduction will be fine. Poleaxe that do AOE damage not fixed in current game version, but you can find fix in bug section forum

 

 

 

 

[mant2si]

I need your help.

 

I could make an ability like Carnage (For every successful melee attack, the attacker makes reduced-damage (33%) attacks at all other enemies within a short distance of the target) and modded into one of my weapons. I'll attach it here.

 

I'm not sure if its too overpower. Can you download it and try, please? Feedback is appreciated. If its fine, I will use this mod in all 2H weapons.

 

 

PS: you may need to download my original mod here: https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/111

I tested it, Carnage ability didn't apply skills effect on multiple targets, will be better if we can cast martial skills on multiple target (as spirit lance) but with less damage. Otherwise increase carnage damage at least to 50% percent and remove all other damage modifiers

 

I afraid that Rogue's can abuse such big damage amount, if you can limit rogue deathblows to single hand weapon (+ we wait nerfs for streetfighter from obsidian), this weapon type will be good choice 

Edited July 8, 2018 by mant2si

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Carnage only inflicts a third of base damage as raw, I can see why that would be overkill with some of the other classes attack abilities but it's also a reason why carnage isn't as good as it was in PoE. Should probably be bumped up to 50% base +3-5% per power level.

 

I need your help.

 

I could make an ability like Carnage (For every successful melee attack, the attacker makes reduced-damage (33%) attacks at all other enemies within a short distance of the target) and modded into one of my weapons. I'll attach it here.

 

I'm not sure if its too overpower. Can you download it and try, please? Feedback is appreciated. If its fine, I will use this mod in all 2H weapons.

 

 

PS: you may need to download my original mod here: https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/111

It might be too overpowered. I think keeping the AoE attacks on specific weapons is best, but they should do full damage and the AoE is reduced.

[Zelse]

 

I need your help.

 

I could make an ability like Carnage (For every successful melee attack, the attacker makes reduced-damage (33%) attacks at all other enemies within a short distance of the target) and modded into one of my weapons. I'll attach it here.

 

I'm not sure if its too overpower. Can you download it and try, please? Feedback is appreciated. If its fine, I will use this mod in all 2H weapons.

 

 

PS: you may need to download my original mod here: https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/111

I tested it, Carnage ability didn't apply skills effect on multiple targets, will be better if we can cast martial skills on multiple target (as spirit lance) but with less damage. Otherwise increase carnage damage at least to 50% percent and remove all other damage modifiers

 

I afraid that Rogue's can abuse such big damage amount, if you can limit rogue deathblows to single hand weapon (+ we wait nerfs for streetfighter from obsidian), this weapon type will be good choice 

 

Applying martials to multiple targets is absolutely broken. Besides the obvious unlimited stunning surge..

 

Imagine barbaric blow on 5 targets, each of which triggering its own instance of carnage in addition to the weapon aoe itself, Rogue applying aoe arterial strike, fighters locking down entire groups for minutes with constant aoe knockdowns...

 

Just no, applying weapon abilities in an aoe is no bueno. Just breaks the game. 

[mant2si]

 

 

I need your help.

 

I could make an ability like Carnage (For every successful melee attack, the attacker makes reduced-damage (33%) attacks at all other enemies within a short distance of the target) and modded into one of my weapons. I'll attach it here.

 

I'm not sure if its too overpower. Can you download it and try, please? Feedback is appreciated. If its fine, I will use this mod in all 2H weapons.

 

 

PS: you may need to download my original mod here: https://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity2/mods/111

I tested it, Carnage ability didn't apply skills effect on multiple targets, will be better if we can cast martial skills on multiple target (as spirit lance) but with less damage. Otherwise increase carnage damage at least to 50% percent and remove all other damage modifiers

 

I afraid that Rogue's can abuse such big damage amount, if you can limit rogue deathblows to single hand weapon (+ we wait nerfs for streetfighter from obsidian), this weapon type will be good choice 

 

Applying martials to multiple targets is absolutely broken. Besides the obvious unlimited stunning surge..

 

Imagine barbaric blow on 5 targets, each of which triggering its own instance of carnage in addition to the weapon aoe itself, Rogue applying aoe arterial strike, fighters locking down entire groups for minutes with constant aoe knockdowns...

 

Just no, applying weapon abilities in an aoe is no bueno. Just breaks the game. 

 

I don't have problem with multiple barbaric blows (with 70% damage reduced). Just imagine - DW rogue|monk with full attack can do 150 - 200 DM, to do same damage with AOE, you need - 70 damage to primary target and 30 DM to five targets near

 

There exist at least 3 range weapon that do AOE which apply skills effect without damage reduction

Don't forget that all DW characters has 2x recovery speed and 2x unique bonuses

Normal player will use 2H weapon with heavy armor which mean at least 5s to recovery

 

Oh I forgot mages, druid, priests who do in large AOE 200 - 400DM per 1 skill, and Rangers who already has driving flight that works with multiple projectile weapon.

Cipher do 700DM per one disintegration...

 

And unbalanced monks with their bugged shield +20 Deflection, +10 Reflex, 2 DW recovery, additional wounds and possible deflection per wound... so balanced

 

Did PoE I carnage with 2H break game ? Nope again only DW. Even Tidefall with carnage didn't break game

 

The problem only L3 afflictions (Stun, Paralyze) on AOE, because of that I limit different weapon AOE in my suggestion.

In my suggestion there no weapon that do similar AOE as spirit lance or Minor Blight

Edited July 9, 2018 by mant2si

[Purudaya]

Honestly they should just make all 2H weapons attack in a narrow cone AoE with the radius and range dependent on the quality/unique features of the weapon. The ability to apply something like crippling strike to two enemies in melee (and only when positioned correctly) competes with the two chances to apply it to a single enemy offered by two weapon style.

That just leaves 1 handed, which you might be able to address by significantly pumping crit damage in addition to chance, or maybe adding a raw damage bonus. If it's not able to compete with other styles in applying effects/damage bonuses from abilities, then it should at least have the potential to outdo them in unmodified attack damage.

Then it's just a matter of bumping HP/level for everyone to compensate for the deadlier mechanics. It might not be perfect, but it would be a lot better than what we have right now.

[TT1]

Malice is the last of my great swords. I made them for you guys here. I hope you like.

 

It will be available tomorrow

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by TT1

[Veolfen]

To buff 2 handers :

 

Gives them a 25% damages buff (or max roll damages, or both) on full attacks.

Buff their uniques so their bonuses are at least 67% more powerful than 1 handers.

Edited July 10, 2018 by Veolfen

[Veolfen]

Important to not let this thread disapear ! Two-Handers are underwhelming for a few reasons and a few tweaks could make them worth something :

 

-Too much full attacks : Dual Wield outburst Two Handers because most skills are full attacks.
-Unique enchantements on two handers are as powerful or weaker than the ones we find on one handed weapons : Dual wielding / Sword and shield and even single handed wielding have much more powerful effects/combinations/ proc speed of effects than two handers.

In the end, two handers have less combinations, less powerfull effects, less dps and less burst than other damaging counterpart and can even underperform compared to a sword&shield settup.


To fix this : 
1) Add a 25%-50% damage buff for two handers on full attacks and/or always max damages for two handers on full attacks ! They won't get a buff for their basic attacks or primary attacks so they will still not be as competitive in dps area but they will get the burst we expect from them.

2) Add enchantments on uniques &/or buff the actual enchantments. Especially enchants like "10% chance to procs on crit", that can be enough for dual wielding because of fast attack speed (+ combination of 2 weapons enchants) but that are far from being useful on slow two handers. 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Veolfen

[grasida]

It's easily summed up this way: the game presents so many powerful one-handed weapons and so many skills that favor dual wielding that it's both very hard to make a dual wielding character that is worse than a two-handed weapons character, and it's very hard to make a two-handed weapons character that can compete with a dual wielding character.

 

Ideally, you should have to think about the game systems a little to find the best way to use any style. But no style should require you to totally build around it in order to be effective. That's just not the case right now. There is still a serious balance issue with weapon styles in Deadfire.

[Boeroer]

I think adding a damage bonus (max roll or additive dmg mod) for two handers is an easy and good approach.

 

For single weapons I would add a bit of crit damage on Full Attacks.

 

In both cases you can explain it with taking your time (that dual wielders use to apply two attacks) to deliver a more powerful/better aimed strike.