so charge is totally useless now?

[Boeroer]

Erm, yes? Full Attack on the target and crush damage (not weapon related) in between. That's what I said? It was less powerful than the pre 1.1 Deadfire version because items' on hit/crit effects did not proc in the AoE, only on the target.

 

And it was not overpowered because it came a lot later (measured in game time) than in Deadfire and was the only thing that put fighters back onto level with most classes in the end game.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Boeroer

[dunehunter]

I also think Charge in PoE 1 is well-balanced, no idea why they did an overhaul to it in DF..

Edited June 22, 2018 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

I think at first because it came a bit late (previously it was a high tier ability according to data-mining during beta) - so maybe Obsidian thought it needs to be even better than in PoE. Then they moved it down to PL 5 but didn't change it - that was way too powerful.

[Archaven]

Full attack would be great but i only see the problem as resource cost. Just up the resource cost so that you probably able to cast once or twice per battle. Another thing that Obsidian can rework is add more hitpoints to the mob so that Charge dont 1 hit them. Stun on top of the damage would have been nice.  But then i see it's obvious quite difficult to balance (if players choose not to pick charge) and with mobs having increased HP the game will be more difficult.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Archaven

[gkathellar]

Full attack would be great but i only see the problem as resource cost. Just up the resource cost so that you probably able to cast once or twice per battle.

 

The problem that then arises is that you also wouldn't be able to do anything else in most battles.

 

Ultimately that's an issue with the way they've replaced uses/encounter with resources/encounter - every ability has to be balanced as something repeatable that potentially replaces all preceding abilities, rather than as something that will happen X number of times per encounter.

 

/shrug

[AeonsLegend]

Erm, yes? Full Attack on the target and crush damage (not weapon related) in between. That's what I said? It was less powerful than the pre 1.1 Deadfire version because items' on hit/crit effects did not proc in the AoE, only on the target.

 

And it was not overpowered because it came a lot later (measured in game time) than in Deadfire and was the only thing that put fighters back onto level with most classes in the end game.

No both crush and full attack on the target. Not just full attack on the target and crush in between as per description. Description is wrong.

[Balbanes]

People used it for the damage?  Strange; I always used it for the mobility.  

 

Yeah.  It gets Eder right into the thick of things, distracting/engaging the mobs while the rest of the party buffs up.  The party then catches up to Eder and beats the hell out of everything.

[dunehunter]

 

Full attack would be great but i only see the problem as resource cost. Just up the resource cost so that you probably able to cast once or twice per battle.

The problem that then arises is that you also wouldn't be able to do anything else in most battles.

 

Ultimately that's an issue with the way they've replaced uses/encounter with resources/encounter - every ability has to be balanced as something repeatable that potentially replaces all preceding abilities, rather than as something that will happen X number of times per encounter.

 

/shrug

Why that is an issue? U can choose to use FoD 10 times or use SI x1, Lay on hand x2 FoD x4, it’s more flexible than PoE 1.

 

Yes u can barely do anything if u use your high cost abilities a lot times, but it’s all up to you and in PoE 1 you cannot even do this, can u has SI twice in 1? No.

[Archaven]

i see no point in nerfing abilities or weapons/armor. it's potd anyway and it's still not that difficult. since it's potd, i think it's ok if they up the mobs HP. so all these abilities like charge will only work as "softening" the mobs (with added stun is a nice cc) and it wont 1 hit everything it hit (well of course if all the mobs have low HP already). but this bring another problem for people who solo. so easy way out for obsidian is what we see now? currently in 1.1 things seems hard in port maje. not sure what's obsidian definition of hard? throw you in with powerful mobs early game where you are handicapped with low accuracy, low hp, limited skill and abilities.

Edited June 23, 2018 by Archaven

[monoiris]

I think the resource cost should be 1.

[gkathellar]

 

 

Full attack would be great but i only see the problem as resource cost. Just up the resource cost so that you probably able to cast once or twice per battle.

The problem that then arises is that you also wouldn't be able to do anything else in most battles.

 

Ultimately that's an issue with the way they've replaced uses/encounter with resources/encounter - every ability has to be balanced as something repeatable that potentially replaces all preceding abilities, rather than as something that will happen X number of times per encounter.

 

/shrug

Why that is an issue? U can choose to use FoD 10 times or use SI x1, Lay on hand x2 FoD x4, it’s more flexible than PoE 1.

 

Yes u can barely do anything if u use your high cost abilities a lot times, but it’s all up to you and in PoE 1 you cannot even do this, can u has SI twice in 1? No.

 

It's so flexible that it can be homogeneous.

 

Let's take the paladin as an example: when I built an FoD-focused paladin in PoE1, they'd have a couple of really impressive alpha strikes to use at advantageous times, and then they'd be doing other stuff (healing, tossing down scrolls/spellbinds, tanking, etc) - throughout the fight, I could realistically expect to do a variety of different things. By contrast, a PoE2 paladin optimized for FoD will just use FoD over and over again, because that's what they're built to do and is, in general, their best option.

 

Of course, that's an exaggeration, and in particular the difference is more limited at early levels when PoE1 characters tended to have only 1-2 abilities available. It's also variable based on class and build, and for characters like Chanters who replenish resources over time, it tends to be untrue. But hopefully it gets across the point I'm trying to make: tying everything to a shared resource pool sounds good in theory, and it can be good in theory, but it can also encourage extreme specialization and one-trick pony builds. It''s also less of an issue for multiclass characters, since those tend to be two or even three-trick ponies just as a result of their two resource pools.

 

Finally, from a design perspective, I'd personally be leery of it because it's really difficult to balance - and this brings us back to cases like Charge. See, if an ability exists in a vacuum, it can be tuned as an isolated function, i.e. "if Charge is usable x times than it should do y damage at level z." The fact that such an instance can be thought of in simple mathematical terms is tremendously valuable with respect to tuning it, because all the designer has to do is consider the context it occurs in, and then make sure the function is appropriate for that context. If there's a problem with Charge, that can be addressed, and then if there's a problem with Knockdown, that can be addressed. The two cases do create context for one another, but it's a limited context because the ability to use one does not come at the direct expense of the other. On the other hand, if all of a character's abilities draw from the same resource pool, a secondary consideration arises: the opportunity cost of using ability A instead of ability B, and more crucially, the player perception of that opportunity cost. In practice, unless fights really do prompt radically different styles of play, players are going to look at the cost of an ability and the effect of an ability and either say, "oh, wow, that's better than what I have right now, I'll use all of my resources on that instead," or, alternately, "oh, wow, that's not as good as what I have right now, I won't use any resources on that." If the developer then tunes it the other way, the player may change their conclusion, but the process of evaluating opportunity cost to determine worth still happens. This is why in games like Path of Exile, functional builds tend to have one skill for AoE, one skill for single-target, and buffs - they all draw from mana, so the only skills worth using are the ones that maximize either defense or DPS. It's not an inherently bad thing, but it is a thing I don't like in Pillars.

 

Hopefully that provides some clarification on my perspective.

Edited June 23, 2018 by gkathellar

[dunehunter]

But that is true for all melee classes, FoD for paladins, Cripple Strike/Gambit for multiclass/single rogue, Flagellant's Path for monk, Barbarian's Blow for Barb, I think fighter suffers less on this issue than other classes.

[Takkik]

But that is true for all melee classes, FoD for paladins, Cripple Strike/Gambit for multiclass/single rogue, Flagellant's Path for monk, Barbarian's Blow for Barb, I think fighter suffers less on this issue than other classes.

 

   This is the big issue with deadfire system. Every ability compete for the resources, so if one ability is more cost effective (crippling strike vs most other rogue attacks) or just more powerfull (ganbit), you just spam 1 ability and you loose any tactical feeling and got a boring gameplay.

   Another problem, the resource and cost are really low. An ability that cost 2pt it's already x2 the cost of a starting ability. 3pt? x3! Compared to phrases and focus you have less freedom for balancing the cost. It's the advantage of classes that can renew resource/need to built it up.

 

  I think you need more specialised abilities that do one think really good. A 1pt charge that just stun the target is your mobility ability, work similar to rogue escape but only offensive. You can upgrade it and unlock a new charge for 2pt that AOE stun.

 

   Same for rogue, crippling stike should loose the +25%dmg, it's your jack of all trade attack(1pt), DOT, affliction. Make the blind strike (2pt) the big enemy debuf (change the dot for something else like daze). Ring the bell? make it the piercing/dmg ability (just keep the ranged buff for every weapon, +45dmg & 5penetration). Whitering strike? change it to toxic strike as a base, it's your DOT ability for 2pt too. At least the 2pt attacks have each a different flavor/utility (Debuf, piercing/dmg, DOT/weaken) and have the same weight for resource cost.

 

   Fighter/barbarian are more balanced than the rogue because each ability do something really different.

Edited June 23, 2018 by Takkik

[gkathellar]

But that is true for all melee classes, FoD for paladins, Cripple Strike/Gambit for multiclass/single rogue, Flagellant's Path for monk, Barbarian's Blow for Barb, I think fighter suffers less on this issue than other classes.

 

Yes, I agree. Bear in mind my initial comment was in response to a suggestion - that upping charge's cost would have been a better solution to its high power than messing with its particulars. I brought up the question of shared resources to note that this comes at a cost to flexibility, because either charge would then be so expensive to be unworthy of using, or still strong enough but would pretty rapidly leave your fighter devoid of resources to do other things. This is unlike, say, PoE1, where you could've cut down the uses/encounter or something.

[Zoso der Goldene]

 

 

 

Full attack would be great but i only see the problem as resource cost. Just up the resource cost so that you probably able to cast once or twice per battle.

The problem that then arises is that you also wouldn't be able to do anything else in most battles.

 

Ultimately that's an issue with the way they've replaced uses/encounter with resources/encounter - every ability has to be balanced as something repeatable that potentially replaces all preceding abilities, rather than as something that will happen X number of times per encounter.

 

/shrug

Why that is an issue? U can choose to use FoD 10 times or use SI x1, Lay on hand x2 FoD x4, it’s more flexible than PoE 1.

 

Yes u can barely do anything if u use your high cost abilities a lot times, but it’s all up to you and in PoE 1 you cannot even do this, can u has SI twice in 1? No.

 

It's so flexible that it can be homogeneous.

 

Let's take the paladin as an example: when I built an FoD-focused paladin in PoE1, they'd have a couple of really impressive alpha strikes to use at advantageous times, and then they'd be doing other stuff (healing, tossing down scrolls/spellbinds, tanking, etc) - throughout the fight, I could realistically expect to do a variety of different things. By contrast, a PoE2 paladin optimized for FoD will just use FoD over and over again, because that's what they're built to do and is, in general, their best option.

 

Of course, that's an exaggeration, and in particular the difference is more limited at early levels when PoE1 characters tended to have only 1-2 abilities available. It's also variable based on class and build, and for characters like Chanters who replenish resources over time, it tends to be untrue. But hopefully it gets across the point I'm trying to make: tying everything to a shared resource pool sounds good in theory, and it can be good in theory, but it can also encourage extreme specialization and one-trick pony builds. It''s also less of an issue for multiclass characters, since those tend to be two or even three-trick ponies just as a result of their two resource pools.

 

Finally, from a design perspective, I'd personally be leery of it because it's really difficult to balance - and this brings us back to cases like Charge. See, if an ability exists in a vacuum, it can be tuned as an isolated function, i.e. "if Charge is usable x times than it should do y damage at level z." The fact that such an instance can be thought of in simple mathematical terms is tremendously valuable with respect to tuning it, because all the designer has to do is consider the context it occurs in, and then make sure the function is appropriate for that context. If there's a problem with Charge, that can be addressed, and then if there's a problem with Knockdown, that can be addressed. The two cases do create context for one another, but it's a limited context because the ability to use one does not come at the direct expense of the other. On the other hand, if all of a character's abilities draw from the same resource pool, a secondary consideration arises: the opportunity cost of using ability A instead of ability B, and more crucially, the player perception of that opportunity cost. In practice, unless fights really do prompt radically different styles of play, players are going to look at the cost of an ability and the effect of an ability and either say, "oh, wow, that's better than what I have right now, I'll use all of my resources on that instead," or, alternately, "oh, wow, that's not as good as what I have right now, I won't use any resources on that." If the developer then tunes it the other way, the player may change their conclusion, but the process of evaluating opportunity cost to determine worth still happens. This is why in games like Path of Exile, functional builds tend to have one skill for AoE, one skill for single-target, and buffs - they all draw from mana, so the only skills worth using are the ones that maximize either defense or DPS. It's not an inherently bad thing, but it is a thing I don't like in Pillars.

 

Hopefully that provides some clarification on my perspective.

 

Thank you for this post! I wondered why playing single-class felt so underwhelming (not from a power level perspective), and that's exactly it!

If you have both Crippling Strike and Blinding Strike, you're going to compare both directly, and find that Blinding Strike is by no means twice as good as Blinding Strike, so you're going to use Crippling Strike exclusively. Once you add Gouging Strike, that reverses, and there is no real reason to use Crippling Strike anymore.

I'm sure it was designed with the intention of giving players more flexibility, but it does exactly the opposite, at least for me.

BTW by extension, it also shows which classes are less desirable. I find my Barbarian/Cipher Serafen constantly end up with 150+ focus because to use all the Barbarian abilities immediately feels superior to using Cipher Powers and waiting for them to take effect. Although on PotD + level scale up, the fight is usually over before I really get to cast anything big (same goes for Meteor Shower etc.)

[Boeroer]

Back to Charge: I now use it on a Devoted/Berserker AND Edér (Swashbuckler) and it's far from useless. It's not a no-brainer anymore, but I find myself using it a lot. It also stuns the target by the way, not only the ones in between. I even adapted my playstyle because of it: I will shoot some Arterial Strikes from far away at several enemies (usually because of the stealth speed buff you can fire two Arterial Strikes in very quick succession) and then retreat a bit. The enemies will run towards me and form a line, they will get damaged severely because the move (slowly because of the hobbled affliction), I will charge the last one in the line with both characters (after I placed an Ectopsychic Echo on one of them) and usually all enemies are stunned - that helps a lot with the beam damage and I now can mangle them from two sides while they are stunned. Usually the drop like flies without hitting back once. 

 

Sure, they would be already dead if Charge still did a Full Attack on everybody - but I think we agree that that was just too powerful. Now it's still fun and useful - just not so OP anymore. 

Edited June 25, 2018 by Boeroer

[Archaven]

Back to Charge: I now use it on a Devoted/Berserker AND Edér (Swashbuckler) and it's far from useless. It's not a no-brainer anymore, but I find myself using it a lot. It also stuns the target by the way, not only the ones in between. I even adapted my playstyle because of it: I will shoot some Arterial Strikes from far away at several enemies (usually because of the stealth speed buff you can fire two Arterial Strikes in very quick succession) and then retreat a bit. The enemies will run towards me and form a line, they will get damaged severely because the move (slowly because of the hobbled affliction), I will charge the last one in the line with both characters (after I placed an Ectopsychic Echo on one of them) and usually all enemies are stunned - that helps a lot with the beam damage and I now can mangle them from two sides while they are stunned. Usually the drop like flies without hitting back once. 

 

Sure, they would be already dead if Charge still did a Full Attack on everybody - but I think we agree that that was just too powerful. Now it's still fun and useful - just not so OP anymore. 

 

it just means it's situational and only applicable for certain builds and not so flexible and you require more effort to chain and combo it? bottomline it's still the same. it does stun for 4secs.

[Boeroer]

Not that situational - I use it in every fight at least once. For example: if you open with it from stealth its recovery is nearly zero because the stealth speed bonus of 85% applies. So you can stun several enemies for 4 sec (base) and attack immediately after. Even if it's not that useful for you during encounters it would be still pretty great as combat opener (obviously not for Assassins ).

But even if it would be very situational or only good for very special builds (which I don't think): the initial question was if it's "totally useless" now - and I'd say it's far from that. It's actually still pretty good.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Boeroer

[Archaven]

Not that situational - I use it in every fight at least once. For example: if you open with it from stealth its recovery is nearly zero because the stealth speed bonus of 85% applies. So you can stun several enemies for 4 sec (base) and attack immediately after. Even if it's not that useful for you during encounters it would be still pretty great as combat opener (obviously not for Assassin's ).

 

But even if it would be very situational or only good for very special builds (which I don't think): the initial question was if it's "totally useless" now - and I'd say it's far from that. It's actually still pretty good.

 

well totally useless is my initial reaction and probably slight exaggeration. the 4s stun is really quite nice but i find it too short and if it deals primary attack or maybe full attack on the target and aoe stun that will be nice for me. full attack just up the resource cost so you cant spam.

[dunehunter]

Economical side, an ability that cost 2 source point should only hit one target. If you can hit 5+ target with a 2 point ability, it is really OP. Same as Flagellent’s Path, i think it should hit charged target with full attack and only do crush, fire or DoT damage to enemies on the path, or change the cost to 3-4 point, just like Heart of Fury.

Edited June 26, 2018 by dunehunter

[Boeroer]

Wasn't Flagellant's Path changed? The description now says it only does a Full Attack at the target and minor crush damage in between? Or is that not correct? I didn't test it since 1.1. 

[MortyTheGobbo]

 

Not that situational - I use it in every fight at least once. For example: if you open with it from stealth its recovery is nearly zero because the stealth speed bonus of 85% applies. So you can stun several enemies for 4 sec (base) and attack immediately after. Even if it's not that useful for you during encounters it would be still pretty great as combat opener (obviously not for Assassin's ).

 

But even if it would be very situational or only good for very special builds (which I don't think): the initial question was if it's "totally useless" now - and I'd say it's far from that. It's actually still pretty good.

 

well totally useless is my initial reaction and probably slight exaggeration. the 4s stun is really quite nice but i find it too short and if it deals primary attack or maybe full attack on the target and aoe stun that will be nice for me. full attack just up the resource cost so you cant spam.

 

 

If your initial reaction to an ability being nerfed is "totally useless now" it might be a good idea to take a breath double-check your thinking.

[dunehunter]

Wasn't Flagellant's Path changed? The description now says it only does a Full Attack at the target and minor crush damage in between? Or is that not correct? I didn't test it since 1.1.

I tested it in 1.1, still full attack on everybody on the path.

[Boeroer]

Okay, thanks.

[no1fanboy]

what does full attack mean?