Politics Thread - Ka-tet of 19

[Malcador]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2018/jun/20/tender-age-trump-children-separations-detention-shelters-latest-news-updates-live

 

 

Trump said: “We’re looking to keep families together. Very important. We’re going to be signing an executive order. We are also going to count on Congress, obviously, but we are signing an executive order in a little while. We’re going to keep families together but we still have to maintain toughness or our country will be overrun by people, by crime, by all of the things that we don’t stand for and that we don’t want.

So I’m going to be signing an executive order in a little while before I go to Minnesota but, at the same time, I think you have to understand, we’re keeping families together but we have to keep our borders strong. We will be overrun with crime and with people that should not be in our country.”

 

[Gfted1]

It sucks.

 

Agreed, the children become collateral damage. But why is that an "acceptable part of society" while the illegal immigrant situation is not?

[Volourn]

https://ca.style.yahoo.com/dad-left-insulted-kicked-parents-changing-room-222221553.html

 

Men never deal with sexism.   Such a patriarchy we live in.

[Hurlshort]

 

It sucks.

 

Agreed, the children become collateral damage. But why is that an "acceptable part of society" while the illegal immigrant situation is not?

 

 

Because being in the country without proper documentation isn't a clear cut crime like robbery or murder. Particularly considering our immigration policies seem to change dramatically with each new administration. 

[Gfted1]

Because being in the country without proper documentation isn't a clear cut crime like robbery or murder. Particularly considering our immigration policies seem to change dramatically with each new administration.

Well, imo, nobody in the world can roll up on another countries borders and claim ignorance or surprise at not being admitted without proper procedures. And "ignorantia juris non excusat", at least here in the US.

[Volourn]

Every country has (illegal) immigration policies. Many of them are harsh - even harsher than the US. Hell,  most ME countries still have Palestinians living in makeshift camps after DECADES.  But, they seem to get a pass. Mexico is notoriously harsh when it comes to people sneaking illegally into their country (then again they know nobody is going to willingly stay in their ****hole country and will likely got the US anyways LOL).

 

Even in Kanada, we also separate parents and their children. Not a peep from the usual suspects.

[Hurlshort]

 

Because being in the country without proper documentation isn't a clear cut crime like robbery or murder. Particularly considering our immigration policies seem to change dramatically with each new administration.

Well, imo, nobody in the world can roll up on another countries borders and claim ignorance or surprise at not being admitted without proper procedures. And "ignorantia juris non excusat", at least here in the US.

 

 

I think that opinion is much easier to hold from the comfort of a first world country. In reality, if I was dealing with the fear of violence, or unable to feed my family, or any other myriad of problems that exist south of the border, I would probably be more focused on what I was getting away from than what was in front of me.

 

Plus, as I said, those proper procedures keep changing.

[Gfted1]

Yep, the world is a rough place. But you cant honestly believe they thought they were going to waltz in and are now all shocked and dismayed to learn the contrary.

[Hurlshort]

Yep, the world is a rough place. But you cant honestly believe they thought they were going to waltz in and are now all shocked and dismayed to learn the contrary.

 

It's kind of something the US is known for.

 

[Gfted1]

It's kind of something the US is known for.

Yep, its truly a moving tale.

 

Are you aware that US immigration laws have existed since 1790?

[Hurlshort]

 

It's kind of something the US is known for.

Yep, its truly a moving tale.

 

Are you aware that US immigration laws have existed since 1790?

 

 

I am aware, but do you really think people fleeing poverty and violence are going to be well-versed in immigration laws? I'd guess they will be more familiar with the symbols and sentiments of the supposed land of opportunity than the complicated path to citizenship.

 

Also that link you put up has a whole lot of super racist policies like the Chinese Exclusion Act and the Geary Act, so I'm not if it is the best defense for our current policies. 

[Elerond]

Pope Francis Slams Trump’s Family Separation Policy As ‘Immoral’.

 

So I don't understand all the crocodile tears wrt these separations. These people are committing a crime, right? If Jack and Diane shoot a man while robbing his castle, and they have little Sally strapped into the back seat of the get away car, should Sally go to jail with her parents? Should the parents be let go because Sally is in the car? Whats supposed to happen to these minors, iyo? 

 

Laws and morals don't always see eye to eye

 

Like for example sending jews to concenration camps to be killed was legal in Nazi-Germany, hiding and helping jews to escape was illegal, but fast majority see later act as morally right and first act as morally wrong.

 

Owning slaves and mistreating them was legal, helping slaves to escape and hide from authorities was illegal and again fast majority these days see later act as morally right thing to do and first act morally wrong.

 

Man forcing his wife to have sex with him and even beating his wife was legal and helping wife to hide from her husband was illegal and again fast majority these days sees second act morally right thing to do and first act morally wrong.

 

In democracies laws are usually eventually adjusted to fit what people see to be morally right.

 

I am not sure if Sally's case is comparable to illegal entry to USA as, illegal entry is misdemeanor in USA where shooting people during armed robbery is felony. I would ask if authorities should take Sally away from her parents in case they are caught on speeding, when Sally is trapped on back seat their car.

[HoonDing]

It's biblical to follow the law.

[Gfted1]

Also that link you put up has a whole lot of super racist policies like the Chinese Exclusion Act and the Geary Act, so I'm not if it is the best defense for our current policies.

Yep, the world was and is an intolerant place.

 

The link was an illustration of the existence of immigration laws going all the way back to close to the formation of our Constitution. I don't think anyone has to be an expert on the matter to understand that there aren't any countries in the world where you just walk in and set up shop.  

 

I am not sure if Sally's case is comparable to illegal entry to USA as, illegal entry is misdemeanor in USA where shooting people during armed robbery is felony. I would ask if authorities should take Sally away from her parents in case they are caught on speeding, when Sally is trapped on back seat their car.

Really? Did really nobody understand that Sally is a minor child sitting in a car seat? I guess I have to spell it out: Sally is an example of a fictional minor child who is in no way responsible for the actions of her parents. Her parents broke the law and will be going to jail. What will happen to Sally since her parents wont be around? (Protip: Im really asking why would Sally go to foster care but Salida should be left to roam the street while her parents are incarcerated for illegal immigration?)

[Elerond]

 

Really? Did really nobody understand that Sally is a minor child sitting in a car seat? I guess I have to spell it out: Sally is an example of a fictional minor child who is in no way responsible for the actions of her parents. Her parents broke the law and will be going to jail. What will happen to Sally since her parents wont be around? (Protip: Im really asking why would Sally go to foster care but Salida should be left to roam the street while her parents are incarcerated for illegal immigration?)

 

 

I understood your point, but I tried to make counterpoint by asking if Sally's parents should be incarcerated in first place just for commiting misdemeanor offence where law doesn't say that people committing said offence need to be incarcerated?

[Gfted1]

I understood your point, but I tried to make counterpoint by asking if Sally's parents should be incarcerated in first place just for commiting misdemeanor offence where law doesn't say that people committing said offence need to be incarcerated?

 

8 U.S. Code § 1325 - Improper entry by alien.

[Elerond]

 

I understood your point, but I tried to make counterpoint by asking if Sally's parents should be incarcerated in first place just for commiting misdemeanor offence where law doesn't say that people committing said offence need to be incarcerated?

 

8 U.S. Code § 1325 - Improper entry by alien.

 

 

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts

"Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both."

 

(b) Improper time or place; civil penaltiesAny alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of—

 

(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or

(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection.

Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.

 

 

18 U.S. Code § 3571 - Sentence of fine

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/3571

 

(a)In General.—

A defendant who has been found guilty of an offense may be sentenced to pay a fine

 

(b)Fines for Individuals.—Except as provided in subsection (e) of this section, an individual who has been found guilty of an offense may be fined not more than the greatest of—

(1) the amount specified in the law setting forth the offense;

(2) the applicable amount under subsection (d) of this section;

(3) for a felony, not more than $250,000;

(4) for a misdemeanor resulting in death, not more than $250,000;

(5) for a Class A misdemeanor that does not result in death, not more than $100,000;

(6) for a Class B or C misdemeanor that does not result in death, not more than $5,000; or

(7) for an infraction, not more than $5,000.

 

http://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/us-immigration/crime-enter-illegally.html

 

"Whether it’s by crossing the U.S. border with a "coyote" or buying a fake U.S. passport, a foreign national who enters the U.S. illegally can be both convicted of a crime and held responsible for a civil violation under the U.S. immigration laws. Illegal entry also carries consequences for anyone who might later attempt to apply for a green card or other immigration benefit.

The penalties and consequences get progressively more severe if a person enters illegally more than once, or enters illegally after an order of removal (deportation) or having been convicted of an aggravated felony."

 

What Is Illegal Entry?

The immigration law actually uses the term "improper entry," which has a broad meaning. It’s more than just slipping across the U.S. border at an unguarded point. Improper entry can include:

• entering or attempting to enter the United States at any time or place other than one designated by U.S. immigration officers (in other words, away from a border inspection point or other port of entry)
• eluding examination or inspection by U.S. immigration officers (people have tried everything from digging tunnels to hiding in the trunk of a friend’s car)
• attempting to enter or obtain entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or willful concealment of a material fact (which might include, for example, lying on a visa application or buying a false green card or other entry document).

Criminal Penalties

For the first improper entry offense, the person can be fined (as a criminal penalty), or imprisoned for up to six months, or both.

 

 

If I haven't fully misunderstood what these say, the law doesn't say that people who enter in USA illegally need to be incarcerated, even in case of multiple offences although it definitely gives authories right to do so.

[Gfted1]

If I haven't fully misunderstood what these say, the law doesn't say that people who enter in USA illegally need to be incarcerated, even in case of multiple offences although it definitely gives authories right to do so.

That was basically my point, that there is in fact an imprisonment associated with the offence. But you are correct, its doesn't say they must be incarcerated.

 

I wonder, how do you fine a penniless immigrant?

[Malcador]

Make them work it off at the DMV

[HoonDing]

Maybe ppl from El Salvador/Guatemala/Honduras should flee to... Costa Rica? It's a peaceful prosperous country compared to the others.

[Hurlshort]

 

 

It's kind of something the US is known for.

Yep, its truly a moving tale.

 

Are you aware that US immigration laws have existed since 1790?

He's an american history teacher... of course he doesn't know

Actually I teach Medieval World History, not Immigration Law. I mean, I know most people on the internet know everything, but I've never claimed that. The amount I do not know about Immigration laws and policies far outweighs what I do know. Thankfully we live in an age of information, where even a sharp guy from Poland can look up stuff and be an expert on every subject imagineable.

 

[Orogun01]

Maybe ppl from El Salvador/Guatemala/Honduras should flee to... Costa Rica? It's a peaceful prosperous country compared to the others.

Man STFU, I don't need a bunch people ruining Costa Rica. That's my retirement plan.

[Hurlshort]

Ah yes, probably shot at the same studio as the moon landing.

 

Wake up sheeple!

 

Trump has broken from the zero tolerance policy, so seems like things will calm down a bit.

[Malcador]

Well funnily enough the media did show it was part of a protest. Left hand not talking to the right. But I guess it boils down to tree vs forest

 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/18/us/photo-migrant-child-cage-trnd/index.html

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Maybe ppl from El Salvador/Guatemala/Honduras should flee to... Costa Rica? It's a peaceful prosperous country compared to the others.

Man STFU, I don't need a bunch people ruining Costa Rica. That's my retirement plan.

 

Who are you kidding, you're not going to retire.