Why does every class have to have magic?

[Neckbitbasket]

 

Well I think it is clear most of you are not wizard players, and if you are, you probs put very little thought into your character beyond how to min max them. That is all I was saying. Because you know what I am getting at. 

 

And no, there is literally no rpgs out right now that are not a decade old. Divinity OS, but thats worse than this. 

 

As I said, I love Wizards in this game, and I tend to play Wizards and other magicky types in most other RPGs as well. In FFXIV, I main a Black Mage and am very invested into that character and the story of the game despite EVERY SINGLE CLASS relying on some form of magic and mysticism. I still feel special because I could blow up the planet if I wanted to...  kinda. I play an all-elements elementalist in my (currently suspended) Divinity OS2 playthrough. In D&D 5e, I've played a Warlock, a Wizard, a Druid, a Paladin, and another now another Wizard. This, despite the fact that Warlocks and Sorcerers lore-wise are able to get their powers far easier than I can, doesn't cheapen my experience.

[Seroster01]

Well, the Elder Scrolls is a setting where basically anyone can be a mage if they want, and martial fighters frequently have Restoration powers if nothing else.

 

Essentially any game with classless character progression is this in concept. Shadowrun comes to mind.

 

As I mentioned previously, Barbarians in D&D 5e have the ability to call down lighting/fire storms on their targets & grant seemingly magic buffs to their allies, depending on their subclass.

 

It's relatively common these days really.

[Darkprince048]

 

 

Well I think it is clear most of you are not wizard players, and if you are, you probs put very little thought into your character beyond how to min max them. That is all I was saying. Because you know what I am getting at. 

 

And no, there is literally no rpgs out right now that are not a decade old. Divinity OS, but thats worse than this. 

 

As I said, I love Wizards in this game, and I tend to play Wizards and other magicky types in most other RPGs as well. In FFXIV, I main a Black Mage and am very invested into that character and the story of the game despite EVERY SINGLE CLASS relying on some form of magic and mysticism. I still feel special because I could blow up the planet if I wanted to...  kinda. I play an all-elements elementalist in my (currently suspended) Divinity OS2 playthrough. In D&D 5e, I've played a Warlock, a Wizard, a Druid, a Paladin, and another now another Wizard. This, despite the fact that Warlocks and Sorcerers lore-wise are able to get their powers far easier than I can, doesn't cheapen my experience.

 

 

sorcerers and warlocks in DnD get their powers from birth. That is the reason for that, while wizards take years of study to acquire power. But you don't see fighters rogues and barbarians tossing around spells either in that fiction

Edited June 11, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Neckbitbasket]

 

 

 

Well I think it is clear most of you are not wizard players, and if you are, you probs put very little thought into your character beyond how to min max them. That is all I was saying. Because you know what I am getting at. 

 

And no, there is literally no rpgs out right now that are not a decade old. Divinity OS, but thats worse than this. 

 

As I said, I love Wizards in this game, and I tend to play Wizards and other magicky types in most other RPGs as well. In FFXIV, I main a Black Mage and am very invested into that character and the story of the game despite EVERY SINGLE CLASS relying on some form of magic and mysticism. I still feel special because I could blow up the planet if I wanted to...  kinda. I play an all-elements elementalist in my (currently suspended) Divinity OS2 playthrough. In D&D 5e, I've played a Warlock, a Wizard, a Druid, a Paladin, and another now another Wizard. This, despite the fact that Warlocks and Sorcerers lore-wise are able to get their powers far easier than I can, doesn't cheapen my experience.

 

 

Wizards and warlocks in DnD get their powers from birth. That is the reason for that, while wizards take years of study to acquire power. But you don't see fighters rogues and barbarians tossing around spells either in that fiction

 

 

Incorrect. Sorcerers get their power from birth. Warlocks get their power from pacts with certain entities. Also, there are specific subclasses of Rogue, Fighter, and Barbarian that wield magic. Barbarians even get their own special "shamanic" magic. Rogues get illusion spells, and Fighters get a handful of spells from the Wizard spell list and can summon their weapon to their hand. 

 

I recommend reading the Player's Handbook before making statements like that. It implies to me that you have little to no knowledge of what you are talking about.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Neckbitbasket

[Darkprince048]

Well, the Elder Scrolls is a setting where basically anyone can be a mage if they want, and martial fighters frequently have Restoration powers if nothing else.

 

Essentially any game with classless character progression is this in concept. Shadowrun comes to mind.

 

As I mentioned previously, Barbarians in D&D 5e have the ability to call down lighting/fire storms on their targets & grant seemingly magic buffs to their allies, depending on their subclass.

 

It's relatively common these days really

 And why do you think TES with every release since Morrowind is going down the "everyone is equal route"? Could it be that this generation of "I want everything now and I want everything he has" has become endemic? And they are trying to subscribe to the view of the largest majority? Starting to see my point about this generation?

 

Morrowind required significant investment to use magic. It almost punished you until late game. Without investing from the start, magic was almost unusable outside enchanted weapons and armor. Then you get Skyrim where anyone can be anything at any time, which entirely broke every piece of lore ever written... they wrote it off as a gameplay mechanic. 

 

As for the classless game, they intend to make ti so you choose your own class by choosing what skills to train. But by training in magic, you essentially move down the wizard route. They just dont force u to choose that from the beginning. 

[Darkprince048]

 

 

 

 

Well I think it is clear most of you are not wizard players, and if you are, you probs put very little thought into your character beyond how to min max them. That is all I was saying. Because you know what I am getting at. 

 

And no, there is literally no rpgs out right now that are not a decade old. Divinity OS, but thats worse than this. 

 

As I said, I love Wizards in this game, and I tend to play Wizards and other magicky types in most other RPGs as well. In FFXIV, I main a Black Mage and am very invested into that character and the story of the game despite EVERY SINGLE CLASS relying on some form of magic and mysticism. I still feel special because I could blow up the planet if I wanted to...  kinda. I play an all-elements elementalist in my (currently suspended) Divinity OS2 playthrough. In D&D 5e, I've played a Warlock, a Wizard, a Druid, a Paladin, and another now another Wizard. This, despite the fact that Warlocks and Sorcerers lore-wise are able to get their powers far easier than I can, doesn't cheapen my experience.

 

 

Wizards and warlocks in DnD get their powers from birth. That is the reason for that, while wizards take years of study to acquire power. But you don't see fighters rogues and barbarians tossing around spells either in that fiction

 

 

Incorrect. Sorcerers get their power from birth. Warlocks get their power from pacts with certain entities.

 

 Sorry that was a mistype. I meant sorcerers and warlocks get their power from birth. But you are right warlocks get them from pacts. Which is fine, that makes sense. What doesnt make sense is fighters and barbarians with no magical affinity, or training casting spells. Kinda defeats the purpose of studying for ages and selling your soul for power when john smith barbarian can pull spells out of his ass

[Seroster01]

Ya well, a person that plays a wizard generally thinks about that kinda thing.

I, uh, hate to break it to you... but the vast majority of people who pick ANY class do it for either the RP implications I mentioned (which are still there). OR, much more commonly: the min/max potential.

 

Especially in PNP-inspired games like this, a large & varied toolbox is typically more useful for an MC than being ultra-gifted specifically at killing people.

[Darkprince048]

Well, the Elder Scrolls is a setting where basically anyone can be a mage if they want, and martial fighters frequently have Restoration powers if nothing else.

 

Essentially any game with classless character progression is this in concept. Shadowrun comes to mind.

 

As I mentioned previously, Barbarians in D&D 5e have the ability to call down lighting/fire storms on their targets & grant seemingly magic buffs to their allies, depending on their subclass.

 

It's relatively common these days really.

Ya, the subclass of the barbarian was shaman babe. That is a magic class

[Neckbitbasket]

 

Well, the Elder Scrolls is a setting where basically anyone can be a mage if they want, and martial fighters frequently have Restoration powers if nothing else.

 

Essentially any game with classless character progression is this in concept. Shadowrun comes to mind.

 

As I mentioned previously, Barbarians in D&D 5e have the ability to call down lighting/fire storms on their targets & grant seemingly magic buffs to their allies, depending on their subclass.

 

It's relatively common these days really.

Ya, the subclass of the barbarian was shaman babe. That is a magic class

 

 

Actually, it's called Storm Herald, babe. Once again, are you even familiar with what you are talking about, or are you going entirely off of hearsay?

Edited June 11, 2018 by Neckbitbasket

[Darkprince048]

 

 

Well, the Elder Scrolls is a setting where basically anyone can be a mage if they want, and martial fighters frequently have Restoration powers if nothing else.

 

Essentially any game with classless character progression is this in concept. Shadowrun comes to mind.

 

As I mentioned previously, Barbarians in D&D 5e have the ability to call down lighting/fire storms on their targets & grant seemingly magic buffs to their allies, depending on their subclass.

 

It's relatively common these days really.

Ya, the subclass of the barbarian was shaman babe. That is a magic class

 

 

Actually, it's called Storm Herald, babe. Once again, are you even familiar with what you are talking about, or are you going entirely off of hearsay?

 

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Barbarian

[Seroster01]

And why do you think TES with every release since Morrowind is going down the "everyone is equal route"? Could it be that this generation of "I want everything now and I want everything he has" has become endemic? And they are trying to subscribe to the view of the largest majority? Starting to see my point about this generation?

 

Morrowind required significant investment to use magic. It almost punished you until late game. Without investing from the start, magic was almost unusable outside enchanted weapons and armor. Then you get Skyrim where anyone can be anything at any time, which entirely broke every piece of lore ever written... they wrote it off as a gameplay mechanic.

 

As for the classless game, they intend to make ti so you choose your own class by choosing what skills to train. But by training in magic, you essentially move down the wizard route. They just dont force u to choose that from the beginning.

I'm not sure who comprises "this generation" you're talking about? I'm older than most folks who play video games as much as I do. I remember the 90s & early 2000s fantasy RPGs and I liked them when they were new. But for the most part, I like modern games more. Especially modern CRPGs compared to older ones. The writing was typically a bit better but not exceptionally so, and the gameplay was much, much worse.

[Neckbitbasket]

 

 

 

Well, the Elder Scrolls is a setting where basically anyone can be a mage if they want, and martial fighters frequently have Restoration powers if nothing else.

 

Essentially any game with classless character progression is this in concept. Shadowrun comes to mind.

 

As I mentioned previously, Barbarians in D&D 5e have the ability to call down lighting/fire storms on their targets & grant seemingly magic buffs to their allies, depending on their subclass.

 

It's relatively common these days really.

Ya, the subclass of the barbarian was shaman babe. That is a magic class

 

 

Actually, it's called Storm Herald, babe. Once again, are you even familiar with what you are talking about, or are you going entirely off of hearsay?

 

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Barbarian

 

 

Please tell me where you have found the subclass of Shaman on this page?

 

Storm Herald, btw. https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_Barbarian.pdf

Also known as the Barbarian subclass capable of calling down lightning. Not to be confused with Shaman, which you have so far been unable to prove to me exists in 5e. 

 

EDIT

Also, if you want the non-test version, it's in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, which for legal reasons I am not allowed to link to you.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Neckbitbasket

[Seroster01]

So in that link you just posted it talks about Totem Warriors using spirits to, among other things, "fly a limited distance in short bursts". That doesn't sound like POE barbarians to you?

 

Edit: I just realized what time it was, I'll check back in on this thread tomorrow if it's still going.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Seroster01

[Lord_Mord]

 

Ya well, a person that plays a wizard generally thinks about that kinda thing.

 

I don't. Ok, I do, but I come to different conclusions. So don't speak for me.

 

My other character is a rogue. As long as it's not WoW-level fireworks-bull**** I'm totally fine with a few "supernatural" abilities. Even if the lore clearly states that they are special soul powers, most of them could as well be seen as abstractions. The only exception in my opinion is the paladin, but paladins suck either way.

 

And whatever you say, I think the lore makes total sense and is in no way lazy. That soul stuff reminds me of oldschool fantasy or scifi books and explains almost everything. If you disagree because D&D, than you're the one lacking imagination.

 

That said, I also prefer low fantasy settings, but that would in my opinion include mages not using their powers most of the time, which wouldn't be a great idea for a fighting game.

[Lord_Mord]

 

Still waiting to hear all these fantasy stories where "everyone has magic" is so common.

 

You don't read that much oldschool stuff, do you? Even the "the whole world/planet has some kind of soul material under the surface, so everyone has strange powers"-trope is very common.

 

P.S.: And as we are already on the "nowadays kids" level. In my opinion D&D has irreparably corrupted fantasy literature and is the main reason for what I would call fantasy positivism or in medical terms explainitis fantastis.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Lord_Mord

[CornyCarrot]

sorcerers and warlocks in DnD get their powers from birth. That is the reason for that, while wizards take years of study to acquire power. But you don't see fighters rogues and barbarians tossing around spells either in that fiction

 

Except they do, it's just not called magic explicitly. If memory serves, most "mundane" classes at some point get a skill that allows for superhuman feats through "sheer force of will", "intense focus" or some other silliness, but it's still magic. Take something as simple as Rogue's Evasion which allows to avoid full damage from AoE attacks, like dragon breath. Realistically speaking, there is no way in hell to avoid what basically amounts to magical carpet bombing, in open area, because you jump behind a rock and are street-smart. And yet, Evasion is a thing, both in DnD and PoE. Or Hide in Plain Sight. Or the ""You a demi-lich? That's cute" BG Rogue who could set Time Traps and make himself immune to Death Magic.

 

Even what you suggested a couple pages back, about turning the Escape ability to a roll or flip, instead of straight up teleport it is now. You think it would be more mundane? How often do you see professional martial artist (boxing, UFC) doing flips to escape form hairy situations? You don't, because the speed and strength required to do so, without getting demolished in the process, would be superhuman. Not to mention that better options would be available to someone with such physical prowess. And that's just sports, let alone actual combat, with weapons and armour involved. So even if you'd had your way and they changed it, it would still be superhuman, hence magical, in this setting.

 

What I'm getting at, is that you're arguing semantics.

[geala]

I does not make sense to think of "realism" in a fantasy world. I see it a bit like the OP, but from the other side. I don't like magic and mages and prefer non-magical abilities and reasoning for people with weapons. But in the soul based PoE world it makes a kind of sense when anybody has some "magical" abilities. The pure mages are just the most gifted.

 

Beyond that, let it be. A world of swords, firearms and magic it is. Don't even think about what would happen if a humble farmer with a pistol would confront a mage who needed several seconds to let loose his mighty earthshaking spell ...

Edited June 11, 2018 by geala

[Boeroer]

It not only makes no sense to argue with realism, history and tradition when discussing a fictional setting - it's also silly.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Boeroer

[Amentep]

I dunno, I think there's a scale of relationship between reality and a fantasy setting. Certainly discussing the physics of a Minoletta's Minor Missiles is a fruitless mental endeavor (even though it could be fun) as it assumes the laws of physics apply to something that defies the laws of physics by its nature.

That said, if there wasn't a lore related reason (Soul Power!) to explain why a a fighter-type class exploded in magical fire, or why D&D style Rogues could get a skill to read spell scrolls I get having an issue.

 

But I think the lore reason in PoE pretty much explains the supernatural nature of the class abilities, IMO.

[Shadenuat]

Don't even think about what would happen if a humble farmer with a pistol would confront a mage who needed several seconds to let loose his mighty earthshaking spell ...

"Don't think about it" is a good idea for PoE setting yes.

 

I dunno, I think there's a scale of relationship between reality and a fantasy setting.

Fantasy is a mirror to reality, of course there is.

 

If you have to reply on anyone scrutinising your setting "is fantasy duh" your illusion failed and you're back to the drawing board.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Shadenuat

[Zoso der Goldene]

I does not make sense to think of "realism" in a fantasy world. I see it a bit like the OP, but from the other side. I don't like magic and mages and prefer non-magical abilities and reasoning for people with weapons. But in the soul based PoE world it makes a kind of sense when anybody has some "magical" abilities. The pure mages are just the most gifted.

 

Beyond that, let it be. A world of swords, firearms and magic it is. Don't even think about what would happen if a humble farmer with a pistol would confront a mage who needed several seconds to let loose his mighty earthshaking spell ...

I generally agree.

I do think, however, that striving for a little verisimilitude in the confines of a fantasy worlds can be a good design principle, i.e. try to avoid inner contradictions. For everything in the world, if you can come up with a reasonable explanation, that might make your world more immersive.

As far as game mechanics go, however, that's by no means the only consideration.

[Elerond]

Some examples of settings where everybody (or virtually everybody) has magic

 

RPG systems

Glorantha (RPGs like RueQuest and HeroQuest use this setting), one of the oldest RPG settings

GURPS Technomancer  (setting for GURPS in which everybody has magic)

In Eberron, a D&D setting, low level magic so common place that virtually everybody has access to it

Earthdawn (both setting and rpg system)

 

Books

Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher

Darksword books by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman

The Xanth series by Piers Anthony

The King's Peace by Jo Walton

A Darker Shade of Magic by V.E. Schwab (there is three parrarel universes from which in two everybody has magic)

The Crest of Zabutur series by N Lott

[Boeroer]

Providing comprehensible explanations as to why something works in a fictional setting is not the same as using realism, history or tradition to argue if a setting is good or not. It just has to be conclusive and not break its own rules.

 

So, arguing that a fictional setting in which everybody *can* (not necessarily has to) achieve supernatural powers through the power of his soul is bad because it's not realistic, it's unlike older settings (not traditional) or it doesn't have an equivalent in history is silly I my opinion. You can say you don't like the approach because of those reasons and that's totally fair - but calling it bad or even retarded design like OP did is just silly.

[Verde]

They are abilities not spells. A smokebomb for a Rogue has been around since forever.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

<-- This "new generation of gamer" is 42 now and started with a C64 and Pools of Radiance. Looking back it was pretty crappy...

 

you take that back

 

Pool of Radiance was perfect, right down to the code wheel