Why does every class have to have magic?

[Darkprince048]

 

That something I love about Dragon Age, magic is special there and only those who are born with it can use it. The problem is that a society where everyone can throw fireballs just isn't believable. Problem is most people just want to cast spells in their fantasy worlds without thinking how such a world could work.

Firstly, even though PoE is a high magic setting, it's hardly like everyone's throwing fireballs around. Many of the abilities on non-caster classes can easily be explained as mundane or mundane-adjacent (eg. maybe tapping into something slightly magical, but nothing on the level of proper spellwork), in conjunction with the constraints of having to present it in a practical way. For example the Rogue's Escape ability can simply be seen as a mundane skill, an ability to maneauver quickly through a melee situation without being hit; with the visual effects there simply to make clear to players what is going on, and the 'teleport' aspect merely a convenient game mechanic (clearly what is shown on screen is not meant to be literal anyway).

 

But secondly, why would a reality where everyone has magical abilities to varying degrees be less believable than one where only some people have magical ability, exactly? Certainly one can think of scenarios where only a few people have it (eg. it's bestowed by divine favour from some deity), but there is no particular reason to see that as the norm. And even if it were the norm in fantasy settings, that still would not make the alternative not believable. Looking at our own reality, human abilities and dispositions and such are almost invariably distributed along some continuous scale (and usually well-modeled by a normal distribution as well), in particular if they are inherited (and many of the ones that are not are of the sort you really don't want). So I would argue that if anything is the more believable default scenario, it would be the one where everyone has some level of magical aptitude.

Fine, if everyone has magic, why the need for the wizard class? Everyone is a wizard. Remove the name. Remove the class. The name itself refers to a person who uses magic. If everyone uses magic the class no longer makes sense. Problem solved Edited June 10, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Darkprince048]

Final point, an anaology to the real world. Everyone technically can practice medicine. Ignoring the fact that being successful in medicine requires a certain intellect, anyone can practice the basic concepts. So does that mean everyone is a doctor? No, because learning medicine and all the advanced concepts takes years. Even though nothing is stopping a person from doing it, physically. It requires years of study to understand the concepts to put any of it to good use. The concept is the same here. Even if everyone is ABLE to use magic, does that mean everyone is going to go around using it? No, because it requires the knowledge to go hand in hand, and that knowledge takes years of study.

 

So it makes no sense that some fighter or barbarian with no education in magic, would be able to use magic. And if they did have education in magic, they would not be a fighter. They would be a battlemage or warlock. Hence the multiclasses.

[Barleypaper]

Firstly, even though PoE is a high magic setting, it's hardly like everyone's throwing fireballs around. Many of the abilities on non-caster classes can easily be explained as mundane or mundane-adjacent (eg. maybe tapping into something slightly magical, but nothing on the level of proper spellwork), in conjunction with the constraints of having to present it in a practical way. For example the Rogue's Escape ability can simply be seen as a mundane skill, an ability to maneauver quickly through a melee situation without being hit; with the visual effects there simply to make clear to players what is going on, and the 'teleport' aspect merely a convenient game mechanic (clearly what is shown on screen is not meant to be literal anyway).

 

Have to chime in here on one point (because I feel it's quite significant):

 

The rogue's ability to "teleport" is explicitly referenced during the VTC questline. It's implied to be part of the inspiration for the research on teleportation using adra pillars.

 

Perhaps, then, the mechanics of the game should be taken at face value. Whether this is a good or a bad thing, I haven't decided.

[Darkprince048]

 

Firstly, even though PoE is a high magic setting, it's hardly like everyone's throwing fireballs around. Many of the abilities on non-caster classes can easily be explained as mundane or mundane-adjacent (eg. maybe tapping into something slightly magical, but nothing on the level of proper spellwork), in conjunction with the constraints of having to present it in a practical way. For example the Rogue's Escape ability can simply be seen as a mundane skill, an ability to maneauver quickly through a melee situation without being hit; with the visual effects there simply to make clear to players what is going on, and the 'teleport' aspect merely a convenient game mechanic (clearly what is shown on screen is not meant to be literal anyway).

Have to chime in here on one point (because I feel it's quite significant):

 

The rogue's ability to "teleport" is explicitly referenced during the VTC questline. It's implied to be part of the inspiration for the research on teleportation using adra pillars.

 

Perhaps, then, the mechanics of the game should be taken at face value. Whether this is a good or a bad thing, I haven't decided.

So I am starting to get it now. The people in this world are all basically gods. Able to do all kinds of magical things. Wizards just sit behind their books and study the various effects that everyone else is able to do, and when they want to peform these same abilities, it takes them half a year and a fancy book to cast the spell. Gotcha. Totes makes sense. Bunch of genius writers came up with this story, all so everyone could be equal! God forbid if the classes aren't all capable of doing the same thing! We might offend a social justice warrior! Edited June 10, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Mikeymoonshine]

That something I love about Dragon Age, magic  is special there and only those who are born with it can use it. The problem is that a society where everyone can throw fireballs just isn't believable. Problem is most people just want to cast spells in their fantasy worlds without thinking how such a world could work.

 

That's actually a problem I have with Dragon Age Inquisition, the fighter and Rogue classes all have these flashy magic look effects to their combat abilities, that's always been there to an extent but it was really bad in that game.

 

As for pillars I don't think it's too much and at least there is a lore reason for it.

[Boeroer]

<-- This "new generation of gamer" is 42 now and started with a C64 and Pools of Radiance. Looking back it was pretty crappy...

[Neckbitbasket]

 

 

Firstly, even though PoE is a high magic setting, it's hardly like everyone's throwing fireballs around. Many of the abilities on non-caster classes can easily be explained as mundane or mundane-adjacent (eg. maybe tapping into something slightly magical, but nothing on the level of proper spellwork), in conjunction with the constraints of having to present it in a practical way. For example the Rogue's Escape ability can simply be seen as a mundane skill, an ability to maneauver quickly through a melee situation without being hit; with the visual effects there simply to make clear to players what is going on, and the 'teleport' aspect merely a convenient game mechanic (clearly what is shown on screen is not meant to be literal anyway).

Have to chime in here on one point (because I feel it's quite significant):

 

The rogue's ability to "teleport" is explicitly referenced during the VTC questline. It's implied to be part of the inspiration for the research on teleportation using adra pillars.

 

Perhaps, then, the mechanics of the game should be taken at face value. Whether this is a good or a bad thing, I haven't decided.

So I am starting to get it now. The people in this world are all basically gods. Able to do all kinds of magical things. Wizards just sit behind their books and study the various effects that everyone else is able to do, and when they want to peform these same abilities, it takes them half a year and a fancy book to cast the spell. Gotcha. Totes makes sense. Bunch of genius writers came up with this story, all so everyone could be equal! God forbid if the classes aren't all capable of doing the same thing! We might offend a social justice warrior!

 

 

Oh, please. This is hyperbole and you know it. And of course game designers are going to try and craft a world that justifies balanced classes. Contrary to popular belief, this has been a common goal of most good gamemakers for at least the last two decades, and is not some social justice conspiracy. There are other games out there for you if you are looking for a low magic setting. 

 

The Witcher does a fine job of this. KoToR and SWTOR will let you play mundane classes or force wizards, whatever flavor you wish. Dark Souls there exists clear separation between magic and non-magic, although not much in the way of roleplaying. Hell, even Skyrim, Oblivion, and Morrowind will let you get through the game mundanely, as long as you are alright with wielding magic items (specifically in Morrowind as it would be incredibly difficult and tedious otherwise). 

 

Different games, different people, different preferences. I'm sure you can find something that fits your tastes, but it clearly isn't here, and nobody here is wrong for enjoying this game for the high magic setting it is.

 

Worldbuilding is certainly an important part of fantasy, and this game is not without its issues on the writing side of things, but most of the points you're bringing up come down to personal preference, rather than things objectively wrong with the setting or characters. In fact, you really haven't mentioned any specifics about the game's lore at all. 

Edited June 10, 2018 by Neckbitbasket

[Barleypaper]

I think you can build interesting settings where magic is ubiquitous, but I think PoE has fallen a little bit short, for me. The problem I have with Eora is that it's powered by 1-size-fits-all phlebotinum batteries, "souls". It's, in my opinion, boring.

 

gkathellar mentioned the "bizarro-universe charm" that D&D had as a contrast to this. D&D had almost as many supernaturally-enabled classes as PoE, but they each drew their power from some different, eldritch, esoteric source; mages/sorcerers from the weave and the like (similar to soul power), clerics/paladins from the gods (a fickle, external source), monks through sheer "mind over matter", not to mention psychics. Even fighters, if you handwave their apparently superhuman physical prowess, could be "magical" by wielding various artifacts of power. You know, like heroes from mythology did.

 

People say "wizards shouldn't be special because fighters should be special as well", or the like. OK, but I'd argue that fighters have always been special in D&D, and derivative works, precisely because they don't have magic and still kick ass (Conan has already been mentioned). PoE loses a little of that. But, it's ultimately a narrative choice they've made and they have to stick with it. I'm not really against the idea of "everyone is a soul wizard", I'd say it's just missing a little spice.

[MortyTheGobbo]

I think you can build interesting settings where magic is ubiquitous, but I think PoE has fallen a little bit short, for me. The problem I have with Eora is that it's powered by 1-size-fits-all phlebotinum batteries, "souls". It's, in my opinion, boring.

 

gkathellar mentioned the "bizarro-universe charm" that D&D had as a contrast to this. D&D had almost as many supernaturally-enabled classes as PoE, but they each drew their power from some different, eldritch, esoteric source; mages/sorcerers from the weave and the like (similar to soul power), clerics/paladins from the gods (a fickle, external source), monks through sheer "mind over matter", not to mention psychics. Even fighters, if you handwave their apparently superhuman physical prowess, could be "magical" by wielding various artifacts of power. You know, like heroes from mythology did.

 

People say "wizards shouldn't be special because fighters should be special as well", or the like. OK, but I'd argue that fighters have always been special in D&D, and derivative works, precisely because they don't have magic and still kick ass (Conan has already been mentioned). PoE loses a little of that. But, it's ultimately a narrative choice they've made and they have to stick with it. I'm not really against the idea of "everyone is a soul wizard", I'd say it's just missing a little spice.

 

I mean... D&D fighters don't kick ass. They're frankly pathetic when compared when anything remotely magical. That's why we're having this discussion.

 

Anyway, this thread starts out from a somewhat understandable premise and then wades deep into hysterical hyperbole and wild false equivalences. A fighter can do things that aren't really humanly possible. Like pulling people to them. Which is mostly a gameplay abstraction of a fighter sticking close to enemies, because it's easier to represent. How is this remotely the same thing as the wizard having a dozen different spells to throw around elements, turn enemies to stone or summon a cloud of poison? Can a fighter do that? Can a rogue? Can a barbarian summon monsters and revive their allies? They can't. So how are they "the same", just because they all do powerful and awesome things?

 

I mean, really. What can a fighter do? Strike accurately, strike hard, defend themselves expertly, charge across the battlefield... those are normal combat skills writ large. The only outlier is Get Over Here, which is again an abstraction of the push and pull of a battlefield.

 

What about rogues? Jumping around and stabbing or shooting people. Not sure what the big deal is. There's once again one thing that might be strange, which is invisibility. But, again, abstraction.

 

Barbarians get angry, scare people and hit things. I suppose they're more overtly supernatural than those two, but again - jumping in the middle of enemies, getting super angry and yelling at them is hardly magic. It's not normal, but it's not magic.

 

Compare that to even half of a wizard or cleric's repertoire. Can you honestly call them the same, without indulging in ridiculous hyperbole?

 

The game does have the usual disassociation where the writing and the setting don't really acknowledge the superhuman things people can do without magic. It's a problem, but honestly I don't care about it that much. But it's the way things go. In a game like Pillars, if you want your non-magical characters to have interesting and varied abilities, you're going to have to abandon realism to some degree. Getting bit by a dragon and surviving is hardly realistic either, and yet people don't complain about that.

 

If you wanted those classes to remain "normal" and "not magic", you'd have to cut most of the magic-using classes' power in half, because otherwise there's no way the fighters and rogues can be relevant. You'll also have to give up on fighting dragons, giants and other mythic monsters, because there's no way for "normal" people to go toe to toe with them. You'd basically have to cut most of the game's progression in half and stick to low-powered plots and challenges.

Edited June 10, 2018 by MortyTheGobbo

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

If you think PoE Wizards are indistinguishable from PoE Fighters, Barbarians, and Rogues then you've been blinded by butthurt. The weeabo fitan magic given to martial classes doesn't compare to the supernatural **** Wizards (or Druids or Priests or Ciphers or Chanters) are able to pull off. Feeling like your meteor-slinging Wizard isn't special anymore because the Fighter can telekinetic pull enemies 5m away is like feeling your car isn't a vehicle anymore because a kid down the street has a bicycle.

[Loren Tyr]

Final point, an anaology to the real world. Everyone technically can practice medicine. Ignoring the fact that being successful in medicine requires a certain intellect, anyone can practice the basic concepts. So does that mean everyone is a doctor? No, because learning medicine and all the advanced concepts takes years. Even though nothing is stopping a person from doing it, physically. It requires years of study to understand the concepts to put any of it to good use. The concept is the same here. Even if everyone is ABLE to use magic, does that mean everyone is going to go around using it? No, because it requires the knowledge to go hand in hand, and that knowledge takes years of study.

 

So it makes no sense that some fighter or barbarian with no education in magic, would be able to use magic. And if they did have education in magic, they would not be a fighter. They would be a battlemage or warlock. Hence the multiclasses.

 

This is a fairly bizarre example to be honest, because it pretty much proves my point: in a general sense, practicing medicine is quite widespread. As you get to the less common and more specialized stuff, you really start to move to the exclusive domain of doctors. But basic first aid, cures to common ailments, suchlike. Quite a lot of people know that, and probably more so in the past when people had to rely more on themselves (and still now, in areas where there isn't much modern medicine available (at short notice or at all)). That certainly doesn't require years of training, part of it is really just stuff many people will just pick up as they grow up.

 

And there is also a whole range of people between doctors with years of medical training and the average person: nurses and EMTs obviously have a fair degree of medical training and knowledge, as do many other non-doctors who are working in or adjacent to the medical field. Any larger company will have a bunch of people with extra training, people spending a lot of time for job or leisure away from direct medical care will as well. And talking about fighters: I would imagine modern soldiers are given additional training in first and such as well, seems like a rather pertinent skill on a battlefield.

 

So yeah, medical skill and knowledge seems like fairly common thing to me; distributed across a continuous scale. So how is this in support of your argument exactly? 

[Loren Tyr]

I think you can build interesting settings where magic is ubiquitous, but I think PoE has fallen a little bit short, for me. The problem I have with Eora is that it's powered by 1-size-fits-all phlebotinum batteries, "souls". It's, in my opinion, boring.

 

gkathellar mentioned the "bizarro-universe charm" that D&D had as a contrast to this. D&D had almost as many supernaturally-enabled classes as PoE, but they each drew their power from some different, eldritch, esoteric source; mages/sorcerers from the weave and the like (similar to soul power), clerics/paladins from the gods (a fickle, external source), monks through sheer "mind over matter", not to mention psychics. Even fighters, if you handwave their apparently superhuman physical prowess, could be "magical" by wielding various artifacts of power. You know, like heroes from mythology did.

 

People say "wizards shouldn't be special because fighters should be special as well", or the like. OK, but I'd argue that fighters have always been special in D&D, and derivative works, precisely because they don't have magic and still kick ass (Conan has already been mentioned). PoE loses a little of that. But, it's ultimately a narrative choice they've made and they have to stick with it. I'm not really against the idea of "everyone is a soul wizard", I'd say it's just missing a little spice.

 

Although I certainly agree that PoE lore and metaphysics could be much more fleshed out, I'd also say that the comparison to D&D is ultimately unfair. After all, D&D has existed and been actively developed for... how long now? Decades, anyway, and with however many contributors. And proportionately the lore aspect is a much larger part, being a pen&paper game; not much time spent on coding and graphics, anyway. Starting from scratch on the lore when building a computer game, you're never going to beat that in terms of depth.

[Darkprince048]

 

Final point, an anaology to the real world. Everyone technically can practice medicine. Ignoring the fact that being successful in medicine requires a certain intellect, anyone can practice the basic concepts. So does that mean everyone is a doctor? No, because learning medicine and all the advanced concepts takes years. Even though nothing is stopping a person from doing it, physically. It requires years of study to understand the concepts to put any of it to good use. The concept is the same here. Even if everyone is ABLE to use magic, does that mean everyone is going to go around using it? No, because it requires the knowledge to go hand in hand, and that knowledge takes years of study.

 

So it makes no sense that some fighter or barbarian with no education in magic, would be able to use magic. And if they did have education in magic, they would not be a fighter. They would be a battlemage or warlock. Hence the multiclasses.

This is a fairly bizarre example to be honest, because it pretty much proves my point: in a general sense, practicing medicine is quite widespread. As you get to the less common and more specialized stuff, you really start to move to the exclusive domain of doctors. But basic first aid, cures to common ailments, suchlike. Quite a lot of people know that, and probably more so in the past when people had to rely more on themselves (and still now, in areas where there isn't much modern medicine available (at short notice or at all)). That certainly doesn't require years of training, part of it is really just stuff many people will just pick up as they grow up.

 

And there is also a whole range of people between doctors with years of medical training and the average person: nurses and EMTs obviously have a fair degree of medical training and knowledge, as do many other non-doctors who are working in or adjacent to the medical field. Any larger company will have a bunch of people with extra training, people spending a lot of time for job or leisure away from direct medical care will as well. And talking about fighters: I would imagine modern soldiers are given additional training in first and such as well, seems like a rather pertinent skill on a battlefield.

 

So yeah, medical skill and knowledge seems like fairly common thing to me; distributed across a continuous scale. So how is this in support of your argument exactly?

As a paramedic, allow me to elaborate. Superstition and wives-tales to "treat" various conditions, is hardly practicing medicine. If I were to drop a patient in your lap in respiratory distress and tell you he has a tension pneumothorax, without doing a google search, would you know what the hell was wrong? Let alone the method of treatment? And even if by chance you watched a movie once that mentioned it, would you have any clue how to actually perform a needle thoracostomy? Would any person without significant training? Of course not.

 

How about hemochromatosis, or chorioamnionitis, or a thousand other conditions that nobody even knew, let alone how to treat. Medicine, real medicine and years of training to identify and treat, solved those issues. Not gramma Sue-bob.

 

So please don't conflate "an apple a day keeps the doctor away" with actual medical knowledge. As a provider that works with the public everyday, I can tell you assuredly, the public does not know the first thing about medicine. If they did, the black plague would not have wiped it's way across the world almost exterminating the human race before they realized it was their disgusting living conditions and the fleas on rats that spread it.

 

And while I am not a doctor, I have gone through many years of medical training. So, if you were to compare me to the fantasy equivalent, I would hardly be classified as mundane. I have no issues with multi-class classes like warlocks and battlemages, which I suppose a nurse or paramedic would qualify as, but I do have an issue with a class with no skill or training in magic, using magic.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Darkprince048

[BalkothTheFeared]

Honestly, they should make the game realistic. Everyone dies or is mortally wounded on hit. Only wizards get access to HP now, because otherwise it wouldn't be "realistic" enough.

[Neckbitbasket]

 

 

Final point, an anaology to the real world. Everyone technically can practice medicine. Ignoring the fact that being successful in medicine requires a certain intellect, anyone can practice the basic concepts. So does that mean everyone is a doctor? No, because learning medicine and all the advanced concepts takes years. Even though nothing is stopping a person from doing it, physically. It requires years of study to understand the concepts to put any of it to good use. The concept is the same here. Even if everyone is ABLE to use magic, does that mean everyone is going to go around using it? No, because it requires the knowledge to go hand in hand, and that knowledge takes years of study.

 

So it makes no sense that some fighter or barbarian with no education in magic, would be able to use magic. And if they did have education in magic, they would not be a fighter. They would be a battlemage or warlock. Hence the multiclasses.

This is a fairly bizarre example to be honest, because it pretty much proves my point: in a general sense, practicing medicine is quite widespread. As you get to the less common and more specialized stuff, you really start to move to the exclusive domain of doctors. But basic first aid, cures to common ailments, suchlike. Quite a lot of people know that, and probably more so in the past when people had to rely more on themselves (and still now, in areas where there isn't much modern medicine available (at short notice or at all)). That certainly doesn't require years of training, part of it is really just stuff many people will just pick up as they grow up.

 

And there is also a whole range of people between doctors with years of medical training and the average person: nurses and EMTs obviously have a fair degree of medical training and knowledge, as do many other non-doctors who are working in or adjacent to the medical field. Any larger company will have a bunch of people with extra training, people spending a lot of time for job or leisure away from direct medical care will as well. And talking about fighters: I would imagine modern soldiers are given additional training in first and such as well, seems like a rather pertinent skill on a battlefield.

 

So yeah, medical skill and knowledge seems like fairly common thing to me; distributed across a continuous scale. So how is this in support of your argument exactly?

As a paramedic, allow me to elaborate. Superstition and wives-tales to "treat" various conditions, is hardly practicing medicine. If I were to drop a patient in your lap in respiratory distress and tell you he has a tension pneumothorax, without doing a google search, would you know what the hell was wrong? Let alone the method of treatment? And even if by chance you watched a movie once that mentioned it, would you have any clue how to actually perform a needle thoracostomy? Would any person without significant training? Of course not.

 

So please don't conflate "an apple a day keeps the doctor away" with actual medical knowledge. As a provider that works with the public everyday, I can tell you assuredly, the public does not know the first thing about medicine.

 

And while I am not a doctor, I have gone through many years of medical training. So, if you were to compare me to the fantasy equivalent, I would hardly be classified as mundane. I have no issues with multi-class classes like warlocks and battlemages, which I suppose a nurse or paramedic would qualify as, but I do have an issue with a class with no skill or training in magic, using magic.

 

 

Similarly, a martial artist or weight trainer may be able to prescribe routines to someone that will make them stronger without necessarily knowing the exact anatomy of why, or only having knowledge of the basics. An assassins may know how to mix a specific type of poison and how to deliver it, and what it's effects on the body while still only having a rudimentary understanding of chemistry and biology. A sniper has probably learned all the necessary calculations to aim their shot and account for all the variables involved in that, but place them next to a dedicated mathematician and they would find themselves hopelessly outmatched in regards to actual knowledge about math. 

 

Take a pilot or a sailor and look at all the information they need to know basically on an intuitive level in order to operate their respective crafts. They may fully, or at least somewhat understand the physics behind all of that, but that doesn't mean they could explain quantum theory to you. 

 

You are treating Rogues, Barbarians, and Fighters as though they are children when they are in fact highly skilled practitioners of their profession. 

[Darkprince048]

Honestly, they should make the game realistic. Everyone dies or is mortally wounded on hit. Only wizards get access to HP now, because otherwise it wouldn't be "realistic" enough.

Talk about hyperbole

[Darkprince048]

 

 

 

Final point, an anaology to the real world. Everyone technically can practice medicine. Ignoring the fact that being successful in medicine requires a certain intellect, anyone can practice the basic concepts. So does that mean everyone is a doctor? No, because learning medicine and all the advanced concepts takes years. Even though nothing is stopping a person from doing it, physically. It requires years of study to understand the concepts to put any of it to good use. The concept is the same here. Even if everyone is ABLE to use magic, does that mean everyone is going to go around using it? No, because it requires the knowledge to go hand in hand, and that knowledge takes years of study.

 

So it makes no sense that some fighter or barbarian with no education in magic, would be able to use magic. And if they did have education in magic, they would not be a fighter. They would be a battlemage or warlock. Hence the multiclasses.

This is a fairly bizarre example to be honest, because it pretty much proves my point: in a general sense, practicing medicine is quite widespread. As you get to the less common and more specialized stuff, you really start to move to the exclusive domain of doctors. But basic first aid, cures to common ailments, suchlike. Quite a lot of people know that, and probably more so in the past when people had to rely more on themselves (and still now, in areas where there isn't much modern medicine available (at short notice or at all)). That certainly doesn't require years of training, part of it is really just stuff many people will just pick up as they grow up.

 

And there is also a whole range of people between doctors with years of medical training and the average person: nurses and EMTs obviously have a fair degree of medical training and knowledge, as do many other non-doctors who are working in or adjacent to the medical field. Any larger company will have a bunch of people with extra training, people spending a lot of time for job or leisure away from direct medical care will as well. And talking about fighters: I would imagine modern soldiers are given additional training in first and such as well, seems like a rather pertinent skill on a battlefield.

 

So yeah, medical skill and knowledge seems like fairly common thing to me; distributed across a continuous scale. So how is this in support of your argument exactly?

As a paramedic, allow me to elaborate. Superstition and wives-tales to "treat" various conditions, is hardly practicing medicine. If I were to drop a patient in your lap in respiratory distress and tell you he has a tension pneumothorax, without doing a google search, would you know what the hell was wrong? Let alone the method of treatment? And even if by chance you watched a movie once that mentioned it, would you have any clue how to actually perform a needle thoracostomy? Would any person without significant training? Of course not.

 

So please don't conflate "an apple a day keeps the doctor away" with actual medical knowledge. As a provider that works with the public everyday, I can tell you assuredly, the public does not know the first thing about medicine.

 

And while I am not a doctor, I have gone through many years of medical training. So, if you were to compare me to the fantasy equivalent, I would hardly be classified as mundane. I have no issues with multi-class classes like warlocks and battlemages, which I suppose a nurse or paramedic would qualify as, but I do have an issue with a class with no skill or training in magic, using magic.

Similarly, a martial artist or weight trainer may be able to prescribe routines to someone that will make them stronger without necessarily knowing the exact anatomy of why, or only having knowledge of the basics. An assassins may know how to mix a specific type of poison and how to deliver it, and what it's effects on the body while still only having a rudimentary understanding of chemistry and biology. A sniper has probably learned all the necessary calculations to aim their shot and account for all the variables involved in that, but place them next to a dedicated mathematician and they would find themselves hopelessly outmatched in regards to actual knowledge about math.

 

Take a pilot or a sailor and look at all the information they need to know basically on an intuitive level in order to operate their respective crafts. They may fully, or at least somewhat understand the physics behind all of that, but that doesn't mean they could explain quantum theory to you.

 

You are treating Rogues, Barbarians, and Fighters as though they are children when they are in fact highly skilled practitioners of their profession.

Yes, rogues and barbarians are masters of their craft. But their craft is melee combat, and subterfuge. Not sorcery. I am not complaining about mixing poisons and using tricks and gadgets. I am referring to the barbarian ability "instrument of boundless rage" where the barbarian lights his weapon up with magical fire, throws it and it explodes in a massive fireball.

 

And I am referring to the rogue who waves his hand turns invisible and teleports across the screen using magic.

 

I don't think those are included in the skill sets of barbarians and rogues. Maybe a multiclass rogue and wizard. Or warlock (wizard and barbarian)

Edited June 11, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Neckbitbasket]

Yes, rogues and barbarians are masters of their craft. But their craft is melee combat, and subterfuge. Not sorcery. I am not complaining about mixing poisons and using tricks and gadgets. I am referring to the barbarian ability "instrument of boundless rage" where the barbarian lights his weapon up with magical fire, throws it and it explodes in a massive fireball.

And I am referring to the rogue who waves his hand turns invisible and teleports across the screen using magic.

 

I don't think those are included in the skill sets of barbarians and rogues. Maybe a multiclass rogue and wizard. Or warlock (wizard and barbarian)

 

 

You are comparing magic to modern day science, thus I am giving examples of how people who don't necessarily devote themselves to scientific fields still utilize science to supplement their own. Logically, it would carry over that if Magic is a kind of science in this world (which is how you are treating it, given your comparison to the field of medicine), it would result in similar utilization by those not necessarily devoted to the craft.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Neckbitbasket

[Seroster01]

I've given up on the OP.  It apparently isn't enough that casters have more unique, and frequently more powerful, options than their martial counterparts due to the caster's years of studying how to properly invoke their abilities (exactly what he's asking for).  Apparently, martial classes should only be allowed to do things which fit his very narrow view of "appropriate" actions.  It doesn't matter that these "appropriate" actions are antiquated by decades & have been stated several times in this thread to be un-interesting (or at least significantly LESS interesting than what we got) to the people who want to play those classes.

 

And obviously, as he has stated several times, anyone who disagrees with him has a lesser intellect.  To summarize the current state of this thread: 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Seroster01

[Darkprince048]

I've given up on the OP. It apparently isn't enough that casters have more unique, and frequently more powerful, options than their martial counterparts due to the caster's years of studying how to properly invoke their abilities (exactly what he's asking for). Apparently, martial classes should only be allowed to do things which fit his very narrow view of "appropriate" actions. It doesn't matter that these "appropriate" actions are antiquated by decades & have been stated several times in this thread to be un-interesting (or at least significantly LESS interesting than what we got) to the people who want to play those classes.

 

And obviously, as he has stated several times, anyone who disagrees with him has a lesser intellect. To summarize the current state of this thread:

So you think adding some flashy special effects to the same boring animations and calling it "soul magic" is more interesting than using a bit of imagination to make some real abilities that fit with the archtype?

 

How about the rogue using flips and rolls, explosives, grenades, throwing daggers, grappling hooks, and other gadgets? How about turning their stealth into a smoke bomb. And clarifying that is what it is, rather than suggesting its soul magic.

 

How about giving the barbarian some cool animations with cool attacks. Kicks, normal leaps without magic flames. You know, use a bit of effort to make unique skill sets. But I guess I am just crazed. How about just a weapon throw that doesnt explode into a nuke? Rather than put some effort into animation, they slap some magic effects onto it and call it soul magic.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Seroster01]

 

I've given up on the OP. It apparently isn't enough that casters have more unique, and frequently more powerful, options than their martial counterparts due to the caster's years of studying how to properly invoke their abilities (exactly what he's asking for). Apparently, martial classes should only be allowed to do things which fit his very narrow view of "appropriate" actions. It doesn't matter that these "appropriate" actions are antiquated by decades & have been stated several times in this thread to be un-interesting (or at least significantly LESS interesting than what we got) to the people who want to play those classes.

 

And obviously, as he has stated several times, anyone who disagrees with him has a lesser intellect. To summarize the current state of this thread:

So you think adding some flashy special effects to the same boring animations and calling it "soul magic" is more interesting than using a bit of imagination to make some real abilities that fit with the archtype?

 

How about the rogue using flips and rolls, explosives, grenades, throwing daggers, grappling hooks, and other gadgets? How about turning their stealth into a smoke bomb. And clarifying that is what it is, rather than suggesting its soul magic.

 

How about giving the barbarian some cool animations with cool attacks. Kicks, normal leaps without magic flames. You know, use a bit of effort to make unique skill sets. But I guess I am just crazed. How about just a weapon throw that doesnt explode into a nuke? Rather than put some effort into animation, they slap some magic effects onto it and call it soul magic.

 

I mean, you and I are never going to agree on whether a Barbarian shouting people to death is an appropriately Barbarian-ish thing to do, or leaping into the air & crashing down hard enough to cause an explosion.  I do understand your general criticism of the Barbarian ability to throw a weapon that somehow turns into the spell Fireball, and it seems out of place to me as well.  But I don't act like I somehow have the intellectual high ground, and dismiss your right to your own opinions, because we disagree. 

 

You like what you like.  Obviously that's not POE.  But don't act like your opinions are the only correct ones, or that people who disagree are somehow less intelligent or have no imagination.  Which you have stated several times in this thread.

[Neckbitbasket]

I've given up on the OP.  It apparently isn't enough that casters have more unique, and frequently more powerful, options than their martial counterparts due to the caster's years of studying how to properly invoke their abilities (exactly what he's asking for).  Apparently, martial classes should only be allowed to do things which fit his very narrow view of "appropriate" actions.  It doesn't matter that these "appropriate" actions are antiquated by decades & have been stated several times in this thread to be un-interesting (or at least significantly LESS interesting than what we got) to the people who want to play those classes.

 

And obviously, as he has stated several times, anyone who disagrees with him has a lesser intellect.  To summarize the current state of this thread: 

 

Well, I think he also ignores any posts he can't respond to using his same three tired arguments. I think I have 7 posts in this thread, and he has responded to approximately 1 of them. Loren Tyr brought up similar problems with his analogies of magic to science, and how they actually contradict his own argument, and they were summarily ignored. Elerond broke down the flavors of magic for each of the classes, and they were ignored. And so on, and so forth. 

 

You are probably right, and Darkprince048 is probably only doing this to bolster his esteem of his own intellect. However, I would be more than happy for him to prove me wrong and actually respond to these criticisms, because I want this to be an actual discussion rather than an egotistical vanity project (and thus, ultimately, a waste of time).

 

Also, @Darkprince048

 

Honestly, they should make the game realistic. Everyone dies or is mortally wounded on hit. Only wizards get access to HP now, because otherwise it wouldn't be "realistic" enough.

Talk about hyperbole

 

So I am starting to get it now. The people in this world are all basically gods. Able to do all kinds of magical things. Wizards just sit behind their books and study the various effects that everyone else is able to do, and when they want to peform these same abilities, it takes them half a year and a fancy book to cast the spell. Gotcha. Totes makes sense. Bunch of genius writers came up with this story, all so everyone could be equal! God forbid if the classes aren't all capable of doing the same thing! We might offend a social justice warrior!

 

When it comes to communication, you tend to get what you give.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Neckbitbasket

[Darkprince048]

 

I've given up on the OP.  It apparently isn't enough that casters have more unique, and frequently more powerful, options than their martial counterparts due to the caster's years of studying how to properly invoke their abilities (exactly what he's asking for).  Apparently, martial classes should only be allowed to do things which fit his very narrow view of "appropriate" actions.  It doesn't matter that these "appropriate" actions are antiquated by decades & have been stated several times in this thread to be un-interesting (or at least significantly LESS interesting than what we got) to the people who want to play those classes.

 

And obviously, as he has stated several times, anyone who disagrees with him has a lesser intellect.  To summarize the current state of this thread: 

 

Well, I think he also ignores any posts he can't respond to using his same three tired arguments. I think I have 7 posts in this thread, and he has responded to approximately 1 of them. Loren Tyr brought up similar problems with his analogies of magic to science, and how they actually contradict his own argument, and they were summarily ignored. Elerond broke down the flavors of magic for each of the classes, and they were ignored. And so on, and so forth. 

 

You are probably right, and Darkprince048 is probably only doing this to bolster his esteem of his own intellect. However, I would be more than happy for him to prove me wrong and actually respond to these criticisms, because I want this to be an actual discussion rather than an egotistical vanity project (and thus, ultimately, a waste of time).

 

Also, @Darkprince048

 

Honestly, they should make the game realistic. Everyone dies or is mortally wounded on hit. Only wizards get access to HP now, because otherwise it wouldn't be "realistic" enough.

Talk about hyperbole

 

So I am starting to get it now. The people in this world are all basically gods. Able to do all kinds of magical things. Wizards just sit behind their books and study the various effects that everyone else is able to do, and when they want to peform these same abilities, it takes them half a year and a fancy book to cast the spell. Gotcha. Totes makes sense. Bunch of genius writers came up with this story, all so everyone could be equal! God forbid if the classes aren't all capable of doing the same thing! We might offend a social justice warrior!

 

When it comes to communication, you tend to get what you give.

 

 

I have responded to several of your arguments and Loren tyrs. I suggest you do some scrolling. I have already clarified the difference between "folk medicine" and actual medicine, and how little the public actually knows about medicine. Medicine, like most concepts of magic in lore, requires years of study and training. Or do you think your gramma can diagnose atrial fibrillation, and treat it appropriately? How about neurocysticercosis? Think shes got that handled too?

 

Not just anyone can practice medicine. There is a reason you have to go through years of study to do so. It has taken me years of study, research and training to be able to identify and learn to treat these various conditions. You don't come out of the womb knowing these things, despite the many web MDs out there. As I said before, if medical knowledge was so common the black plague would not have almost wiped out the human race, and bacterial infection would not have claimed countless lives prior to a SCIENTIST discovering that a strange growing mold could kill microorganisms. So, what were you saying about medicine not being a good analogy? Please bless me with your vast knowledge on such a common concept as medical practice...

 

P.S If any of you bring up "first aid" as medicine again, I am going to have to laugh at you. First aid is placing a fking band-aid on a wound.... 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Neckbitbasket]

I have responded to several of your arguments and Loren tyrs. I suggest you do some scrolling. I have already clarified the difference between "folk medicine" and actual medicine, and how little the public actually knows about medicine. Medicine, like most concepts of magic in lore, requires years of study and training. Or do you think your gramma can diagnose atrial fibrillation, and treat it appropriately? How about neurocysticercosis? Think shes got that handled too?

 

Not just anyone can practice medicine. There is a reason you have to go through years of study to do so. It has taken years of study, research and training to be able to identify and learn to treat these various conditions. You don't come out of the womb knowing these things, despite the many web MDs out there. So,what were you saying about medicine not being a good analogy? Please bless me with your vast knowledge on such a common concept as medical practice...

 

 

 

Yes, rogues and barbarians are masters of their craft. But their craft is melee combat, and subterfuge. Not sorcery. I am not complaining about mixing poisons and using tricks and gadgets. I am referring to the barbarian ability "instrument of boundless rage" where the barbarian lights his weapon up with magical fire, throws it and it explodes in a massive fireball.

And I am referring to the rogue who waves his hand turns invisible and teleports across the screen using magic.

 

I don't think those are included in the skill sets of barbarians and rogues. Maybe a multiclass rogue and wizard. Or warlock (wizard and barbarian)

 

 

You are comparing magic to modern day science, thus I am giving examples of how people who don't necessarily devote themselves to scientific fields still utilize science to supplement their own. Logically, it would carry over that if Magic is a kind of science in this world (which is how you are treating it, given your comparison to the field of medicine), it would result in similar utilization by those not necessarily devoted to the craft.

 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Neckbitbasket

[Darkprince048]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Darkprince048