Character disappointments

[KindCollusion]

I haven't gotten too far into the game but I kind of feel like the characters are a bit needlessly polarized. Eider has always been very nuanced in how he questioned his faith. It kind of makes sense that he lost much of it from the events of the first game.

Pallegina, on the other hand, didn't seem to have any issue with Hylea until council of stars when the Goddess ignored her. Fast forward to deadfire and Pallegina seems to have some vendetta against the Gods and we find out she had her Godlike connection severed when she was very young. It seems like they added a bunch of new details to her character just to make her more anti-theist. It's awkward how anti-religious she suddenly is in this game. It redefines her whole character out of nowhere.

Xoti is almost a parody of religious people, a sort of "ignorance is bliss" stereotype...

Now don't get me wrong, I believe in God, but i find this interaction of polar opposites kind of off-putting. I was okay with the premise of God's being created by man. It is a fantasy world after all. I liked reading His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman. I like having debates with atheists. I just don't want the prevailing theme to be a war of straw men if that makes any sense. 

I dunno, lol post your thoughts people

Edited May 30, 2018 by KindCollusion

[Slotharingia]

Yeah, I'm coming from the opposite to you as I do not believe in God, but that being said, a fantasy world is obviously completely different. I'm not a fan of extreme views unless they make some kind of sense, like anti oppression/pro equality. I didn't actually get much of the anti religious behaviour from Pallegina, but her anti godlike and pro VTC is bad nuff, especially if your PC is godlike. Just sticking to some principle or other because of nationalism/being religious/not being religious/being a godlike and hating it ruins characters somewhat for me. I'd also like to be able to influence them, or see the other characters influence one another and for that to then be reflected in their interaction/approval. That being said, I didn't dislike anyone besides Maia, as her questioning her orders but still carrying them out is even worse in my head. Aloth's compulsive approval of those traits as well as his disapproval of less obnoxious things doesn't help and I've started making him pro Leaden Key just to be able to handle his 'tude, although I never did that in POE1.

[Heijoushin]

Weeeeell, the returning characters needed new personal quests, so new details were added. Pallegina has more of a chip on her shoulder this time round, but I think that's partially a result of discovering that the gods are artificial at the end of PoE1, so I don't find it too strange. 
 

Yeah, the new "characteristic system" (or whatever it's called) does make it a little polarized. I guess that was also on purpose, to create a little conflict in the party. I didn't particularly enjoy sorting those fights out though. It felt counterproductive to have team members fighting. 

On the other hand, we didn't get any genuinely "evil" companions this time round. Even Serafen the pirate was a big old softie...
 

@Slotharingia: I found Maia getting worked up about shooting people a little odd considering how many people/monsters the watcher massacres "for the greater good" on a daily basis. 

Edited May 30, 2018 by Heijoushin

[Wormerine]

Ending of PoE1 must have impacted your companions a lot.

 

Because there is less conversation to be head with companions, they tend to be painted with less delicate strokes. If some of the reactions (PAL vs. Xoti) come at more appropriate time, they might feel much better.

 

I thought Pal was fine - she always had a grudge against superstitions and her heritage, and finding out that gods are a Kith creation must have only strengthen her dislike toward them.

 

Eder changed his background with 1.0.2 patch so he has been all over the place for me. Upset at Eothas Eder fit with what I imagine he would be after PoE1 events.

 

Xoti was fine actually. I don’t see her in anyway worse than Durance. She is obsessively devoted to Gaun, but that makes sense. Gods,

clearly exist and she has proof of his existence via destruction and vision. If anything I find it odd, how not religious a lot of Deadfire seems to be.

[Slotharingia]

Weeeeell, the returning characters needed new personal quests, so new details were added. Pallegina has more of a chip on her shoulder this time round, but I think that's partially a result of discovering that the gods are artificial at the end of PoE1, so I don't find it too strange. 

 

Yeah, the new "characteristic system" (or whatever it's called) does make it a little polarized. I guess that was also on purpose, to create a little conflict in the party. I didn't particularly enjoy sorting those fights out through. It felt counterproductive to have team members fighting. 

 

On the other hand, we didn't get any genuinely "evil" companions this time round. Even Serafen the pirate was a big old softie...

 

@Sltharingia: I found Maia getting worked up about shooting people a little odd considering how many people/monsters the watcher massacres "for the greater good" on a daily basis. 

The Watcher doesn't assassinate people cos they are told to though. They kill people who legit get in the way/attack them/are seriously dodgy and you can play in such a way as to avoid a lot of death. I admit the point is moot if you are playing a Watcher that slaughters everything in their path when alternative methods were available.

 

Who was evil in POE1?

[Heijoushin]

Who was evil in POE1?

 

The Watcher doesn't assassinate people cos they are told to though. They kill people who legit get in the way/attack them/are seriously dodgy and you can play in such a way as to avoid a lot of death. I admit the point is moot if you are playing a Watcher that slaughters everything in their path when alternative methods were available.

 

Devil of Caroc. Loved her to bits. Some might even argue that old Durance was evil as well. 

 

Yeah, it depends on how you play your watcher I suppose.

[Slotharingia]

Devil of Caroc. Loved her to bits. Some might even argue that old Durance was evil as well. 

 

Yeah, it depends on how you play your watcher I suppose.

I dunno, I didn't see her as evil tbh. She had pretty good reasons to be bitter. I rarely see people as truly evil though. Imo even Thaos thought he was some kind of good guy, doing what he thought was necessary. Why would Durance be evil? From a pro Eothas perspective? Edited May 30, 2018 by Slotharingia

[Yria]

Why would Durance be evil? From a pro Eothas perspective?

 

He openly brags about killing his share of innocent people during the Purges (well, they weren't innocent in his eyes, obviously, but objectively their only fault was following a wrong god). It's bad from any perspective, not just pro-Eothas. And unlike Devil, he didn't really have a somewhat justified reason to do all that killing.

[Katarack21]

 

Devil of Caroc. Loved her to bits. Some might even argue that old Durance was evil as well. 

 

Yeah, it depends on how you play your watcher I suppose.

I dunno, I didn't see her as evil tbh. She had pretty good reasons to be bitter. I rarely see people as truly evil though. Imo even Thaos thought he was some kind of good guy, doing what he thought was necessary. Why would Durance be evil? From a pro Eothas perspective?

 

Agreed. Her entire family was slaughtered by a riotous mob while she was a child, and she spent her life murdering those very same people. Now the fact that she wasn't picky about who *else* were in the houses she burned may be seen as evil, but it can also be seen as returning what she got; none of those people cared about the children in her families house when they burned it to the ground.

[bugarup]

If anything I find it odd, how not religious a lot of Deadfire seems to be.

 

Terry Pratchett has a fitting quote about this:

 

Wizards don't believe in gods in the same way that most people don't find it necessary to believe in, say, tables. They know they're there, they know they're there for a purpose, they'd probably agree that they have a place in a well-organised universe, but they wouldn't see the point of believing, of going around saying "O great table, without whom we are as naught"

[Wormerine]

 

If anything I find it odd, how not religious a lot of Deadfire seems to be.

 

Terry Pratchett has a fitting quote about this:

 

Wizards don't believe in gods in the same way that most people don't find it necessary to believe in, say, tables. They know they're there, they know they're there for a purpose, they'd probably agree that they have a place in a well-organised universe, but they wouldn't see the point of believing, of going around saying "O great table, without whom we are as naught"

Yeah, I am not saying it’s bad. It’s possible that heighten religiousness in Dyrwood came from Hollowborn - a plague that no one understood or could deal with. They coped with it by turning to gods, to somewhat obsessive levels. Deadfire is doing fine, so while faiths and gods exist, few give them much thought in everyday life. I was surprised how few shrines there were - in PoE1 every major building or city had its shrine and historical reason for promoting that good. That said, a Neketaka has entire temple district, so it’s seems they simply “outsourced” faith there.

[Juodas Varnas]

Xoti was fine actually. I don’t see her in anyway worse than Durance. She is obsessively devoted to Gaun, but that makes sense. Gods,

clearly exist and she has proof of his existence via destruction and vision. If anything I find it odd, how not religious a lot of Deadfire seems to be.

Well, Xoti doesn't have a beard for starters, so that already makes her inferior to Durance.

 

And she doesn't even call anyone 'fiery whore'!

[Parasol_Syndicate]

I'm disappointed that Tekehu was a thing people made/wrote and are proud of. 

[Katarack21]

 

Xoti was fine actually. I don’t see her in anyway worse than Durance. She is obsessively devoted to Gaun, but that makes sense. Gods,

clearly exist and she has proof of his existence via destruction and vision. If anything I find it odd, how not religious a lot of Deadfire seems to be.

Well, Xoti doesn't have a beard for starters, so that already makes her inferior to Durance.

 

And she doesn't even call anyone 'fiery whore'!

 

Xoti also, as far as I know, has never participated in religious riots where they went around murdering people for believing in a different god.

 

Durance can **** right off.

[KindCollusion]

Wow I just finished Pallegina's companion quest... Very manipulative game-writing... You basically have to say abortion is okay in order to get Tatzatl to let Giacolo live. I personally think abortion should be legal but jeeze that's preachy writing. Stories should make you think, not tell you what to think. Not only was that situation awkwardly themed but it's not realistic at all. Why would a group of pirates be floating around thinking so hard about the greater good that they feel the need to kidnap a dude who has done nothing but help their kind?

[aqeelus]

I'm disappointed that Tekehu was a thing people made/wrote and are proud of. 

Seriously, how did they go from Zahua to this teenage rapper?

[wRAR]

Wow I just finished Pallegina's companion quest... Very manipulative game-writing... You basically have to say abortion is okay in order to get Tatzatl to let Giacolo live. I personally think abortion should be legal but jeeze that's preachy writing. Stories should make you think, not tell you what to think. Not only was that situation awkwardly themed but it's not realistic at all. Why would a group of pirates be floating around thinking so hard about the greater good that they feel the need to kidnap a dude who has done nothing but help their kind?

They are all godlikes.

They think that the discovery will lead to abortions of godlikes.

If you think that abortions are fine then they are OK with publishing the discovery, otherwise they are not (remember they are using your opinion as the casting vote).

[Juodas Varnas]

 

 

Xoti was fine actually. I don’t see her in anyway worse than Durance. She is obsessively devoted to Gaun, but that makes sense. Gods,

clearly exist and she has proof of his existence via destruction and vision. If anything I find it odd, how not religious a lot of Deadfire seems to be.

Well, Xoti doesn't have a beard for starters, so that already makes her inferior to Durance.

 

And she doesn't even call anyone 'fiery whore'!

 

Xoti also, as far as I know, has never participated in religious riots where they went around murdering people for believing in a different god.

 

Durance can **** right off.

Well, at least Durance doesn't end up becoming a literal serial killer in one of his endings.

[Yria]

At least to make Xoti end up a serial killer you need to push her in some grim direction first. Durance was a fanatical murderer long before you even met him.  

 

Wow I just finished Pallegina's companion quest... Very manipulative game-writing... You basically have to say abortion is okay in order to get Tatzatl to let Giacolo live.

 

Nobody's forcing you to say that. Yes, Giacolo might not survive the quest (you can still save him during the fight btw, it's not easy, but it's manageable), but that's consequences for you.

[Siegdarth]

I haven't gotten too far into the game but I kind of feel like the characters are a bit needlessly polarized. Eider has always been very nuanced in how he questioned his faith. It kind of makes sense that he lost much of it from the events of the first game.

 

Pallegina, on the other hand, didn't seem to have any issue with Hylea until council of stars when the Goddess ignored her. Fast forward to deadfire and Pallegina seems to have some vendetta against the Gods and we find out she had her Godlike connection severed when she was very young. It seems like they added a bunch of new details to her character just to make her more anti-theist. It's awkward how anti-religious she suddenly is in this game. It redefines her whole character out of nowhere.

 

Xoti is almost a parody of religious people, a sort of "ignorance is bliss" stereotype...

 

Now don't get me wrong, I believe in God, but i find this interaction of polar opposites kind of off-putting. I was okay with the premise of God's being created by man. It is a fantasy world after all. I liked reading His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman. I like having debates with atheists. I just don't want the prevailing theme to be a war of straw men if that makes any sense. 

 

I dunno, lol post your thoughts people

 

The main issue is because Gods are a reality in the fantasy setting, so not believing in them is somewhat problematic. Most people treat the gods as something real, but distant. The question is not if they are real or not,  but what are humans to them. That's the problem with applying our world notions into the games. 

Pellegina believe in the Gods, she knows she is a child of Amira (Hylea) but in her entire life, she was treated as a good or bad Omen and not as an individual and in an abusive family. Her father hated her because her birdlike features wounded her mother's womb and made her sterile. Because of that, she hates the gods. If you remember the first game at the moment you defeat the Azure Dragon, Pellegina lashed out at Hylea and was ignored.

 

The point is: Pellegina is not Atheist, but she hate the gods and think nothing they do will help kith, and that's why she serves the Republic with so much devotion. 

 

At the other extreme, we have Xoti. I think if you are able to put people souls at your lantern and free them it means something else. You may think she is a take on "foolish religious practices".

Most of the priests you encounter in the game are dedicated to their faith and have a personal relationship with their gods to the point of sounding foolish. The problem with Xoti is how she is too much vocal about it because of her young age and the need to prove herself even among her people. 

 

I found myself also annoyed with Duran and how he was preachy. I tend to dislike people that focus their speech too much on their belief system. That's why I was a bit annoyed with Eder, Durance, and Hiravias on the first game and now Xoti and Takehu are the annoying ones.

 

Wow I just finished Pallegina's companion quest... Very manipulative game-writing... You basically have to say abortion is okay in order to get Tatzatl to let Giacolo live. I personally think abortion should be legal but jeeze that's preachy writing. Stories should make you think, not tell you what to think. Not only was that situation awkwardly themed but it's not realistic at all. Why would a group of pirates be floating around thinking so hard about the greater good that they feel the need to kidnap a dude who has done nothing but help their kind?

 

Yeah, but you have your belief system and the situation presented. Would you lie to save someone life? If your people are often persecuted around the world since birth,  would you allow a man to do a research on how to detect your people before the infant is born? I find more amazing is how people don't want to accept the consequences of their beliefs even in games. (I'm putting myself here because I did reload sometimes =p )  

The question is not the legality of abortion, people on Eora already do it, the moral question is about interfering with someone's life because something he may or may not do.

 

"Person X created a source of energy that would help the world and potentially save millions, but his research could be used to create a weapon of absolute destruction, would you kill him and destroy it to prevent the use of the weapon?" 

 

 

However, instead of asking you directly the kidnappers started a philosophical game question without telling you what is what. Following my proposed question:

 

Quality of life is more important than life itself?

 

Yes or No?

 

A person created an invention that gave prosperity to his homeland and destruction to his enemies.

 

Is he good or bad?

 

 

 

If your enemy declared war against your country, would you destroy his entire civilization to protect yours?

 

Yes or No? 

 

This type of monochromatic thought is inherently biased, but we do it constantly. 

 

Is abortion good or bad? Are drugs Good or bad? Is war good or bad? and so on. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Siegdarth

[wRAR]

Yeah, but you have your belief system and the situation presented. Would you lie to save someone life? If your people are often persecuted around the world since birth,  would you allow a man to do a research on how to detect your people before the infant is born?

You don't know what is this about when you are answering the questions.

[Yria]

What I didn't quite understand in the Giacolo quiz, what did the question about interfering/not interfering with an unfair execution of your enemy have to do with the godlike research? Three other questions all make sense, but this one left me a bit puzzled.

 

You don't know what is this about when you are answering the questions.

 

That's the whole point of the situation. The godlike wanted your unbiased opinion.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Yria

[Juodas Varnas]

What I didn't quite understand in the Giacolo quiz, what did the question about interfering/not interfering with an unfair execution of your enemy have to do with the godlike research? Three other questions all make sense, but this one left me a bit puzzled.

 

You don't know what is this about when you are answering the questions.

 

That's the whole point of the situation. The godlike wanted your unbiased opinion.

I think he was talking about themselves considering Giaccolo as that enemy that needs to be executed.

[wRAR]

Exactly.

[Katarack21]

Nobody's forcing you to say that. Yes, Giacolo might not survive the quest (you can still save him during the fight btw, it's not easy, but it's manageable), but that's consequences for you.

I tried *SO MANY TIMES*. Literally like a *dozen* times, couldn't manage to do it. They run up to him to damn fast, I couldn't even get close.