Watcher's Role Decreased

[Shatterstar]

Anyone else feel like Xoti took over a big chunk of your role as Watcher? I know it was probably to make sure that you don't run out of souls to advance her quest, but after you finish Port Maje's island and the Woedica temple where you have the option to deny Xoti to help the innocent soul yourself, I haven't come across any situations where the Watcher can help souls move on (excluding big picture things like restoring ardra pillars). Any lost soul you come across in Arkemy'rs basement or the swamp with the corrupted ardra pillar or wherever has to have Xoti there to move it along. That seems really weird and a bit disappointing, especially now that you're the Herald of Berath. You've specifically been charged to guard and guide the souls of the dead, but you're outsourcing that to a priestess of the minor aspect of the god that the god you're serving told you to stop, and she can't even see, speak, or manipulate souls like you can?

 

Plus like 85% of the other "Watcher things" you do could technically be done by a cipher as well, even if the game doesn't actually function that way. There's not really a need to reopen the cipher vs watcher discussion, but combined with the Xoti thing it does seem to make being a Watcher a largely pointless reason to claim that you're special. It doesn't even really add to the advancement/science/animancy vs. tradition/magic/religion because apparently both sides have ways of doing what you can, even if they might not have it all in one neat package. Honestly it's a bit like the debate on whether the gods are real lol. Is a cipher-priest combo with like......ardra-lense glasses designed by an animancer to show spirits functionally different from a watcher?

[parnashwind]

Actually Xoti cant see or detect souls. Souls too are attracted to her. She just wiggles that lantern of hers mindlessly when the Watcher like speaks to thin air...

 

I dont think being the Herald of Berath makes the Watcher responsible to guard or guide souls; being the Watcher maybe. The only thing Berath cares about is the cycle. the cycle of the the souls returning to the wheel and reincarnate as intended. The Guarding and Guiding part is pretty un-Berath like imo as it is a little too passionate for Berath's taste.

 

Although I think most will agree that Xoti is a nutcase.

[FecklessFool]

Yep. The Watcher of Caed Nua was a poor fit for this adventure. They should have just died during the opening sequence and we start the game as your version of Rekke after slavers have captured them and they've been a slave for months when Eothas breaking the Wheel allows for them and a trusted group to commandeer a slaver ship and rise to the top of the Deadfire captain rankings. 

 

The  Watcher on the other hand just felt tacked on. It was clear Obsidian didn't want to put them in, but I guess they had to because it's Pillar, but they really don't because it's Pillar and they can do whatever they want with their IP.

[Shatterstar]

I dont think being the Herald of Berath makes the Watcher responsible to guard or guide souls

The Watcher literally says that's what they're supposed to do to the first spirit they "collect" on the beach, and Berath says that they're meant to open the door to the Beyond for the spirits that cling to them.

 

And I know Xoti can't see souls, but that was my point. If I can do it more efficiently, why can I not do it basically at all in the game? I have to have Xoti in my party to pass spirits on now. I know practically it's so you an advance her quest, but lore-wise it's just annoying. What's even the point of being Watcher when there are probably thousands of people in this country alone who can do everything I can do in some form (except for actually SEEING the dead)?

 

The Watcher of Caed Nua was a poor fit for this adventure. 

I think they could have been fine, but they've ended up turning what could basically have been a demigod into a rare cipher subclass that no one else can pick. Yeah, I deal with the ardra blockages, that's unique, but otherwise i don't really feel special for being a watcher because they gave us even less unique things to do then they did in the first game.

[Aridea]

Hmm, you don't have to take her along for souls.

She actually doesn't do anything other than, from what I understand, store those souls in her lantern. She doesn't help them move on until she actually releases them. The difference between the Watcher and her from what I've gathered is that the souls follow Watcher like a beacon, so that they could find their way back to the wheel through Adra or whatever, and Xoti stores them in her lantern.

[Shatterstar]

Except they don't follow you. They stay exactly where they are until you bring Xoti back with you. And like I said, yeah, she's not quite as effective as you because she can't see them and she can't return them to the Wheel without an ardra pillar, which is why it's annoying that 90% of the time you can't just do it yourself.

[Wormerine]

Oh yeah. I completely forgot about “guiding souls to adra” thing.

 

You know, Deadfire is really convoluted and confusing. So what, souls can’t find their way because Eothas is dead? So they couldn’t find their way for how many years now?

 

That would support the idea that reincarnation was Enguithian creation, and gods actualy do serve the purpose.

 

Why... you had clever set up in the first game. Now things get really weird and with no payoff in sight.

[Aridea]

Except they don't follow you. They stay exactly where they are until you bring Xoti back with you. And like I said, yeah, she's not quite as effective as you because she can't see them and she can't return them to the Wheel without an ardra pillar, which is why it's annoying that 90% of the time you can't just do it yourself.

 

Are you sure? Because on my second playthrough I didn't even pick Xoti and most of the souls I came across just came up to the Watcher and vanished. They said the would be following. The only ones that didn't vanish were the two souls on the beach, for that you need Xoti yeah.

[parnashwind]

 

I dont think being the Herald of Berath makes the Watcher responsible to guard or guide souls

The Watcher literally says that's what they're supposed to do to the first spirit they "collect" on the beach, and Berath says that they're meant to open the door to the Beyond for the spirits that cling to them.

 

 

The "guide and guard" part was only one of the conversation choices, no? That would be the Watcher's choice and sense of self imposed responsibility. I think the options I picked was [shrug], [if you must]. In the line of conversation options, I believe the only thing Berath constantly says is "Go as my Herald and find out what Eothas is planning".

 

 

 

Oh yeah. I completely forgot about “guiding souls to adra” thing.

 

You know, Deadfire is really convoluted and confusing. So what, souls can’t find their way because Eothas is dead? So they couldn’t find their way for how many years now?

 

That would support the idea that reincarnation was Enguithian creation, and gods actualy do serve the purpose.

 

Why... you had clever set up in the first game. Now things get really weird and with no payoff in sight.

 

Quite the opposite, the souls are "stuck" because Eothas is NOT dead. When the Watcher tells them to move on, the souls said "But what if that brat Eothas turns the pillars dark again?"

[Mazama]

The "guide and guard" part was only one of the conversation choices, no? That would be the Watcher's choice and sense of self imposed responsibility. I think the options I picked was [shrug], [if you must]. In the line of conversation options, I believe the only thing Berath constantly says is "Go as my Herald and find out what Eothas is planning".

 

 

 

If you keep trying to ditch them Berath will eventually tell you to stop.

[Taevyr]

While it's true that Berath demands you guide the souls while you're his/her herald, I don't see why this conflicts with Xoti shephering souls with her lantern. The fact that lost souls are naturally attracted to you simply means its easier for Xoti to shepherd them to the afterlife, and I imagine after a while she just goes "The Watcher's talkin' to thin air again, guess he's found another one" and wiggles her lantern so she can do her duty. Seeing and attracting souls is why you being the Watcher is a key element here: you wouldn't be able to properly guide and protect them otherwise, and since Berath only cares about the cycle working smoothly, I doubt he/she cares about Xoti helping you with that.

 

As for souls not finding their way: Most souls follow you the moment you talk to them. They're scared of Eothas darkening the luminous adra again, so they hang around with you, as you're literally the only thing they can see and you can relight the adra pillars. Once Xoti's travelling with you, there's some luminous adra following you constantly, which clearly improves the chances of it staying lit. And as the Poko Kohara pillar shows, unconnected Luminous is kind of like a purgatory waiting room for souls, which sounds preferable over unending grey aside from one guy who you've been looking at for days.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Taevyr

[Karkarov]

You guys understand the only difference between the Watcher and every other schmuck is the Watcher can see souls.  Beyond that there is nothing special or unique about the character.  Technically in this game you can "shepherd souls" but you aren't ever really required to, and you get all the chances in the world at the Adra pillars which contain thousands of souls.  By comparison Xoti picks up like 10-20?  Whoopie.

 

I agree Xoti's concept is too similar to what you are supposedly doing yourself in this game, but it hardly takes away from your character, or makes the Watcher feel like he is there just because it is what the fans want.  Watcher makes sense just fine, a random level 1 mook no one has ever heard of would not have. Why would Furrante want your "whose that guy, never heard of him" to help you?  How did you even afford a boat in the first place?  Why would Queen Onezaka make time for you when you first visit Neketaka and are basically unknown.  How would you even be dealing with the adra pillars if you aren't a Watcher and thus can't see or interact with souls????

[Shatterstar]

The "guide and guard" part was only one of the conversation choices, no? That would be the Watcher's choice and sense of self imposed responsibility. I think the options I picked was [shrug], [if you must]. In the line of conversation options, I believe the only thing Berath constantly says is "Go as my Herald and find out what Eothas is planning".

Just because you didn't feel like explaining to the spirit or you're reluctant to do it doesn't mean it's not true.

 

Are you sure? Because on my second playthrough I didn't even pick Xoti and most of the souls I came across just came up to the Watcher and vanished. They said the would be following. The only ones that didn't vanish were the two souls on the beach, for that you need Xoti yeah.

I'm sure. I'm not talking about the ones that are scripted after the first ardra pillar, the ones on the beach, or in the flooded Port Maje neighborhood. I said AFTER you leave the first island. I mean going to Arkemyr's basement, finding the soul in the construct, and being unable to release it on your own. Or the three in the bog with the map to Ukaizo.

 

So what, souls can’t find their way because Eothas is dead? So they couldn’t find their way for how many years now?

Xoti has an imperfect understanding of what's going on. She seems to think that souls can't find they're way because of that, but that's not really true. An influx of lost souls would probably only be in her perception, at least till Eothas actual drained an ardra pillar and the souls did actually get stuck.

 

And as the Poko Kohara pillar shows, unconnected luminous ardra is kind of like a purgatory waiting room for souls, which sounds preferable over unending grey aside from one guy who you've been looking at for days.

There was something wrong with that ardra other than just being disconnected. That one was still glowing, no matter what you did, it was just corrupted somehow, like the ardra pillar on Motare o Kozi with the adragan that had been corrupted into a menpwgra. The problem there was a blockage/backup once the souls were already inside, they couldn't get back out again, and the corruption likely started affecting those trapped souls. Unconnected luminous ardra just doesn't let souls into it in the first place.

 

 

You guys understand the only difference between the Watcher and every other schmuck is the Watcher can see souls.  Beyond that there is nothing special or unique about the character.  Technically in this game you can "shepherd souls" but you aren't ever really required to, and you get all the chances in the world at the Adra pillars which contain thousands of souls.  By comparison Xoti picks up like 10-20?  Whoopie.

 

I agree Xoti's concept is too similar to what you are supposedly doing yourself in this game, but it hardly takes away from your character, or makes the Watcher feel like he is there just because it is what the fans want.  Watcher makes sense just fine, a random level 1 mook no one has ever heard of would not have. Why would Furrante want your "whose that guy, never heard of him" to help you?  How did you even afford a boat in the first place?  Why would Queen Onezaka make time for you when you first visit Neketaka and are basically unknown.  How would you even be dealing with the adra pillars if you aren't a Watcher and thus can't see or interact with souls????

There are definitely more differences between a Watcher and "every other scmhuck" than that. By you're own words you're the only one who can fix an ardra pillar by interacting with the souls. But do we really know that a cipher couldn't do the same? They can read past lives, watch memories from an object, shred souls, see connections between soul twins, etc. Granted they can't see the souls of the dead, but is an unattached soul really so different from a living one if they know it's there? Animancers definitely are futzing around with ardra pillars enough that they could probably find a way to fix a luminous ardra pillar, especially with Engwithan machines to help, and they have devices that let them see souls. They can also store a soul that has been separated from a body, and even transfer it somewhere new. And now priests can guide souls as well, if in a much more roundabout way. It just seems annoying that they've added another way that makes you just a slightly more efficient way of getting the job done.

 

I don't agree that there's no reason to have a watcher be the main character like someone else said, because yeah, you ARE the only one who can fix the ardra. And yeah, relatively you affect more souls. But there are way more times you interact with singular souls than pillars, so why take away the interactions where you try to help a soul find peace (like the little murdered boy in POE1) as an option. No, you're not required to. That Raedceran commander of the Iron Flail doesn't as far as we know. But I spent the first game helping lost souls under my own power. It feels weird to come across a spirit, reading it, and then wandering off without a care in the world unless Xoti is there. I'm not arguing that the MC shoudln't be watcher. My point is that I want them to have more opportunities to BE a watcher, and not have most of those opportunities be impossible if you don't bring the token cipher and now priestess with you in your party.

 

 

 

EDIT: Also, not entirely relevant, but I think the lord of a major Dyrwoodan holding could probably get an audience with the queen regardless, and I don't know why Furrante talks to you, but to me every time he's mentioned that he's more interested in me because I slew a dragon/dragons and have a fancy castle rather than the fact I am a watcher. And any decent fighting party could have cleared Caed Nua's grounds/castle, none of that requires a watcher. You don't even technically need to clear the Endless Paths.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Shatterstar

[Casper]

actually, i thought your character was special because s/he was awakening or awakened as well as being a watcher. assuming being a watcher doesn't automatically mean you're awakened to begin with. (which i'm not entirely clear on)

Edited May 30, 2018 by Casper

[Shatterstar]

Adaryc (the Readceran watcher in charge of the Iron Flail) was not awakened, and Maerwald was not originally awakened either. I think it's just maybe a little more common for watchers to be awakened eventually, and it's particularly traumatic because their abilities make their visions all the more consuming. Being awakened doesn't really make you special, just more of a danger to yourself if you can't settle the old memories.

 

I mean, technically your awakening led you to your interaction with Thaos and therefore you become of particular notice to the gods, which is why they probably picked you first, but it doesn't make you more powerful or give extra abilities another watcher wouldn't have

Edited May 30, 2018 by Shatterstar

[parnashwind]

 

The "guide and guard" part was only one of the conversation choices, no? That would be the Watcher's choice and sense of self imposed responsibility. I think the options I picked was [shrug], [if you must]. In the line of conversation options, I believe the only thing Berath constantly says is "Go as my Herald and find out what Eothas is planning".

Just because you didn't feel like explaining to the spirit or you're reluctant to do it doesn't mean it's not true.

 

 

It is not that. Truth that is a choice is not "universal truth".

 

Cornerstones of the plot will remain constant regardless of how the player chooses to play the Watcher. Meaning, like it or not, you are the Herald of Berath charged with hunting down Eothas and learning his intention regardless because you have a connection to Eothas as he holds part of your soul. This is true regardless of how you choose to play it; unless you straight out refuse and rejects Berath and end the game as soon as it starts. This connection is what makes you special, not because you are a Watcher although that helps a lot.

 

Guarding and guiding the souls is only true when you chooses to make it true, much like your race, gender and agenda. 

 

Xoti is harvesting souls for Eothas or she believes that is what she is doing which is different. Actually, my Watcher has more trouble competing with Xoti because my Watcher is a Priest of Berath and her harvesting souls and not releasing them to the wheel really doesnt sit well with my Watcher but that has more to my Watcher being a Priest of Berath than the Herald of Berath but again that is only true under certain circumstances. Which is why ultimately I made her release the souls back to the wheel.

Edited May 30, 2018 by parnashwind

[Shatterstar]

Okay but the Pallid Knight does specifically say that you are meant to open the In-Between for the spirits that follow you so they can enter the Beyond. That's not an "optional" dialogue choice, it's something she says to every character.

 

And again, even if it's not specifically your job given to you by Berath, it's what most watchers do, and you were given all kinds of opportunities to do so in POE1, so it's annoying for my benevolent character to just nonchalantly abandon multiple spirits for no apparent reason

Edited May 30, 2018 by Shatterstar

[Casper]

Adaryc (the Readceran watcher in charge of the Iron Flail) was not awakened, and Maerwald was not originally awakened either. I think it's just maybe a little more common for watchers to be awakened eventually, and it's particularly traumatic because their abilities make their visions all the more consuming. Being awakened doesn't really make you special, just more of a danger to yourself if you can't settle the old memories.

 

I mean, technically your awakening led you to your interaction with Thaos and therefore you become of particular notice to the gods, which is why they probably picked you first, but it doesn't make you more powerful or give extra abilities another watcher wouldn't have

i thought is was being an awakened watcher that allowed you to buff your abilities with knowledge from your past lives, unless all watchers can do that too?

Edited May 30, 2018 by Casper

[Shatterstar]

Not really. The only watcher ability that lets you do something like that (Dominion of the Sleepers) is specifically about looking at unawakened lives. in Deadfire certain cipher echo abilities can boost you allies by tapping their previous incarnations, but the Watcher themself never gains anything from being awakened, just the guarantee that they'lll end up like Maerwald if they don't come to terms with the awakened soul

[parnashwind]

Okay but the Pallid Knight does specifically say that you are meant to open the In-Between for the spirits that follow you so they can enter the Beyond. That's not an "optional" dialogue choice, it's something she says to every character.

 

And again, even if it's not specifically your job given to you by Berath, it's what most watchers do, and you were given all kinds of opportunities to do so in POE1, so it's annoying for my benevolent character to just nonchalantly abandon multiple spirits for no apparent reason

 

I think her exact words are "When the time comes, you will have the power to reveal the souls that cling to you, to open the gateway from the In-Between to the waking world". I actually take that as, you can use the souls that clings on to you to open a path to the in between, like how you track Eothas the first time. 

 

I agree, unlike PoE1, being a Watcher in PoE2 has less significance. I believe the significance in PoE2 is that your Watcher's souls is so powerful that you get to survive an encounter with Eothas. Eothas even mentions that he will return to you part of your soul he could spare but he still needs the rest during the second encounter. Meaning, your souls is very potent. That is what makes the Watcher special in PoE2.

 

Xoti is a soul reaper.... at least you can still right things by making her release the souls later and see her scream and suffer for it 

[Mazama]

actually, i thought your character was special because s/he was awakening or awakened as well as being a watcher. assuming being a watcher doesn't automatically mean you're awakened to begin with. (which i'm not entirely clear on)

 

Awakening is caused by a traumatic trigger, like Aloth and his abusive father. Becoming a watcher is caused by an event that disrupts the soul. The PC became both after surviving a biawac and encountering Thaos during a ritual. Most awakened are not watchers, but being a watcher increases your chances of awakening. Being an awakened watcher leads to insanity if you can't get your previous incarnations to not drive you nuts with their baggage.

 

Anyway, the watcher is special. Their soul is "heavier" and more intact than others, it shines brightly enough to attract wayward spirits, and being able to commune with spirits is something very few can do. I agree that there's less opportunities to use your abilities, especially from side quests. It would be nice to have more quests that involved your gifts, like finding secrets, solving murders, etc.

[Aridea]

There are definitely more differences between a Watcher and "every other scmhuck" than that. By you're own words you're the only one who can fix an ardra pillar by interacting with the souls. But do we really know that a cipher couldn't do the same? They can read past lives, watch memories from an object, shred souls, see connections between soul twins, etc. Granted they can't see the souls of the dead, but is an unattached soul really so different from a living one if they know it's there? Animancers definitely are futzing around with ardra pillars enough that they could probably find a way to fix a luminous ardra pillar, especially with Engwithan machines to help, and they have devices that let them see souls. They can also store a soul that has been separated from a body, and even transfer it somewhere new. And now priests can guide souls as well, if in a much more roundabout way. It just seems annoying that they've added another way that makes you just a slightly more efficient way of getting the job done.

 

Re- point about ciphers. I am replaying poe1 as a cipher and I keep on thinking that cipher powers are so similar to watcher powers that they sort of make each other redundant. I know GM explains the difference, but she is... vague. If you play any other character not connected to souls, then yep your watcher powers make you special, if you play a cipher - the conversation options are so similar to watcher that if you switch off metagaming info you can't really distinguish between them. Its imho more interesting to play a ranger or a druid or whatever and have special Watcher talent, than play cipher.

 

As for animancers. I do like their concept, but unfortunately in both pillars 1 and 2 they are represented as always f***ing something up, and need someone to clean up their mess. All their achievements happened in the past. In both games they are either outsmarted by someone else (i.e. Thaos) or the Watcher. So tbh I am not sure that at this point they can operate anything.

 

Priests - i think Xoti was just made special. I haven't seen anyone mentioning that they do what she is doing.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Aridea

[Shatterstar]

I don't think animancers f*ck up any more than your average wizard. There are good animancers, they just research a field that has serious consequences, and you're usually involved in their biggest/most dangerous projects. Their whole practice is based around conducting souls/energy through wires and ardra, fixing a pillar would just be a slightly bigger scale, and the animancers at the top of the tower in the Sacred Stair were already working on a project that involved moving souls across miles ardra.

 

*SPOILER*

And if you finish the game by letting Eothas just do what he wants instead of trying to convince him to empower kith/help them rebuild/empower Berath, the Children of the Dawnstars as a whole start ferrying souls to his body/just outside the Ukaizo storm so that they can rest in the mini-Beyond he created there.

[Aridea]

I wish we could be shown some of their better and more successful research, because we need reason to keep them around. The only way they get better is if you empower them with Eothas. For the record, I do always support the practice because science, but the reasons are kinda dubious aside from a couple of great concepts.

Although, the last experiment did transport you in a cave, so it was pretty cool that they figured out adra travel.

 

Hmm I empowered Berath because she won me over, but it was so underwhelming I didn't feel so bad even after ME3 ending. Maybe the Dawnstars were Deadfire invention... I don't remember them the first game. You are right, perhaps they do kinda lessen Watcher's powers, even if they can't see souls and just wave those lanterns around.

[Porcelyn]

All I know is I can't collect the soul in Arkemyr's basement without Xoti. That annoys me to no end.