The tank gears that makes your character immortal deserve a nerf

[dunehunter]

 

 

Its hard to say just by a screenshot, on my wizard +6 didn't get removed exactly at the moment I started casting, it lasted for few seconds. Anyway I'm standing by my idea how the item work because I had +6 on my wizard that had 2 engagement slots (1 innate +1 from shield). If item worked like you said I'd have +15 also so... 

 

Well you can see I didn't use defender stance on eder. He is using a pollaxe without modal, so if you still insist on he has 5 engagement and don't believe me, it's your issue

 

 

I believe what I see. Ima produce same screenshot with my wizard surrounded by 8 melee guys engaging me and show you +6 defenses. Then it will be your issue?

 

 

Yeah, please proof it with screenshot then

[knownastherat]

 

 

Items and abilities are so overtuned, and the system is so out of whack that you can make a pretty unoptimized RP flavor character and steamroll PotD.  PotD right now is easier than Hard in PoE1.  The game needs balancing, and most of that is down tuning some of the more broken and OP things.  This whole "well run around naked and don't use any of the stuff in the game to get your challenge from playing the game" argument is awful.  There are supposed to be difficulty settings, and these abilities can still be potent enough to make story mode and easy settings give a good power fantasy.  However, these items/abilities are far too powerful to even give a moderate challenge on PotD at present.

 

Don't use those items.  Ok, but monks are OP as all get out.  Well, don't play monks.  Ok, but Chanters are pretty crazy too.  Don't play Chanters then.  Ok, Fighters break the game.  Well don't play them either.  Ok, well the Barbarians can clear out everything easily.  Well, don't play those classes.  What about Wizards? Druids?  Priests?

 

So, what you are saying is I need to play solo with a backstabbing rogue whose dumped might and perception to minimum, and pumped Resolve and Con.  All the while avoiding gear, refusing to use athletics, arcane, explosives, or alchemy... in order to get a challenge on the hardest difficulty?

 

So, really what we are saying is "don't play the game".  Avoid everything in the game in order to artificially ramp up difficulty.  Makes sense. 

 

Although I understand what you are trying to say, your exaggeration, and the way you distort what has been said discredits your argument.

There is no denying that either a lot of stuff is terribly overtuned, or the difficulty in veteran and PotD is too low, and probably both.

 

The topic was about specific items that are indeed broken in certain conditions, and those conditions require min-maxing for the scaling items. It is your character development choice to min/max those. You will indeed gain a lot of defenses, and loose a lot of interaction potential, in a game were combat is far from the only thing to do.

 

Fighters, Chanters, or Monks are not inherently OP. I play Eder as a fighter, and he does not feel broken at all. A handfull of abilities in these classes are OP, and break the game if used repeatedly. Why would you use something else ? Because it looks cooler. Because it is more fun. Find your reasons, it's your experience.

Why do I wear a valian froc with low armor and zero bonus instead of a robe that has better stats? Because it looks better and it makes me happy.

 

All i am saying is, if you found a way to break the game, break it, and complain that it is broken, then you did that to yourself. There is no competition, no ranking whatsoever, so nothing stops you from playing it differently if it is more fun for you.

 

Once again, I do agree that Deadfire has serious balancing issues that need to be adressed quickly to increase the fun potential even more. There is no denying that and I am really looking forward to those changes. And in particular to make relevant some mechanics that are gimmicky at best at the moment.

 

What I dislike however, is the general trend of thinking that "this mechanic is broken in my way of playing the game and my way of playing is better than yours". 

Well in my way of playing, none of my characters really have history knowledge. I think Aloth has 8. And therefore giftbearer cloak is not broken. But that fight you could not avoid due to your low insight that comes with maxed history, I could avoid it. A whole fight won without fighting it, how broken could that be ? Please nerf dialogues.

Or don't, because my way of playing is mine alone, and not more nor less valid than another's.

 

 

Who says that I am exaggerating?  Monks can one shot any enemy on the field.  Wizards/Druids can wipe the entirety of a battle.  Chanters can regenerate every class's resource and give everyone +100% healing.  Fighters Cleaving stance is silly.  High level Paladins can't die.  So on and so forth.  This is all on PotD.  Asking us to not use the stuff that is overtuned is the equivalent of asking us to not use a good portion of items/abilities in the game, most of the classes in the game, and some of the skills in the game.  I was for sure being facetious, but I wasn't exaggerating. 

 

These items are but a single example of this issue.  They give no satisfaction to anyone who wants to have any type of challenge.  If it were one or two things that would be one thing.  It isn't.  The game is replete with stuff like this. 

 

The other people on this forum that are the power builders will be here in 6 months making builds.  They will answer questions for those that come late to the Deadfire party.  They will keep this forum alive for a few years, but only if they find a challenge in order to justify those builds.  The PoE forums stayed pretty active for such a small title.  It is all on the shoulders of those folks, and it is good for new players to have a place to look for advice.  It is wise to ensure they still have that challenge in Deadfire.  As that is why they will be here in 6 months, or a year, or 5 years.  PoE1 was a small but active community, and Deadfire needs to be the same. 

 

Now, I am glad you are finding enjoyment in the game.  I am also glad that you feel that you are getting an appropriate challenge in the game.  However, this isn't an either or scenario.  These items can be reduced in potency, and still be incredibly powerful and borderline broken in lower difficulty settings.  At their current power level, however, they trivialize the hardest difficulty.  So much so that they make Triple Crown Solo runs breezy.  Now, some of that can be alleviated by ramping up PotD, and we know that Obsidian didn't tune it completely.  However, there are for sure things that tuning up PotD won't fix. 

 

 

I am saying you are exaggerating.

 

btw I'd like to see you play solo with a backstabbing rogue whose dumped might and perception to minimum, and pumped Resolve and Con.  All the while avoiding gear, refusing to use athletics, arcane, explosives, or alchemy.

[Phyriel]

 

 

 

 

Actually I don't understand why people want to nerf single player game. If you want challenge, just don't use them isn't it? 

 

That's artificial difficulty. 

 

Likewise the people who want an easy time should just play on the easy difficulties. Path of the Damned was designed for a challenge and is incapable of providing one at the moment.

 

 

It does indeed not provide a great challenge to characters that are fully min/maxed and using scaling gear with min maxed skills to match these items.

It does, however, provide an interesting challenge to characters that are built with a minimum of roleplay where choices are motivated by more than mere stats (like companions and sidekicks are, btw, and there is no denying that they are a massive part of the experience intended by the devs).

Still not enough challenge imo, and we all know it has been acknowledged by the devs, and will be tuned, but interesting challenge nonetheless.

 

The conception that PotD should be designed to accomodate powerbuilders is subjective, and quite frankly, not really fitting a game like POE2:Deadfire that focuses on writing, environement, and roleplaying. 

 

 

Also, why putting restrictions on yourself would be artificial difficulty ? Isn't it the essence of a RPG to make choices that your character would make ? Or to reflect his actual skills in the stats ?

Is your 4 resolve watcher really a coward ? Does he really know all the history of Eora, but can't even slightly bluff, has zero interest in metaphysics despite being a watcher ?

 

And more importantly: What difference does it make to your personal single player gameplay experience if you: A -  don't use an option because you think you will have more fun like this, or B- the option is simply removed from the game  ?

 

 

This is a nonsense argument. Single player games still need balance to be fun, and the place where that is most important is at the most difficult point. Anyone who wants less than the most difficult challenge can opt to make a choice within the context of the game to make it easier than doesn't involve them simply not using something available in the game. 

 

When you find a ring of overpowered overpoweredness in a game and don't use it because it's too powerful, that is definitionally artificial difficutly. When you make a game on a difficulty less than the top difficulty it is also artificial difficulty, but it doesn't require to to alter what you do in the game in a nonsensical way. It changes the entire environment, rather than making you as the player change something that makes no contextual sense in the environment. 

 

You are flatly wrong about PotD not being designed around powerbuilders; it is subjective but it is based on the ideas of the game creators. PotD triple crown in PoE1 was "subjectively" designed and balanced around mechanical prowess, and PoE2 will be the same when it is balanced; the devs have already said that they simply didn't have time to balance it and it will come in time. 

 

 

How is this alleged artificial difficulty different from difficulty? 

 

Players who want a challenge have means provided by the game to be challenged. This is irrefutable fact. Whether the ring of overpowered overpoweredness exists in the game or not doesn't change this fact.

 

The difference between artificial difficulty and difficulty is an imaginary and false concept. It's like if a rock climber would be telling a free climber: Use the ropes woman, without them it's  .. artificial difficulty. Nonsense. 

 

 

Those 2 climbers play 2 different games. 

[knownastherat]

 

 

 

 

 

Actually I don't understand why people want to nerf single player game. If you want challenge, just don't use them isn't it? 

 

That's artificial difficulty. 

 

Likewise the people who want an easy time should just play on the easy difficulties. Path of the Damned was designed for a challenge and is incapable of providing one at the moment.

 

 

It does indeed not provide a great challenge to characters that are fully min/maxed and using scaling gear with min maxed skills to match these items.

It does, however, provide an interesting challenge to characters that are built with a minimum of roleplay where choices are motivated by more than mere stats (like companions and sidekicks are, btw, and there is no denying that they are a massive part of the experience intended by the devs).

Still not enough challenge imo, and we all know it has been acknowledged by the devs, and will be tuned, but interesting challenge nonetheless.

 

The conception that PotD should be designed to accomodate powerbuilders is subjective, and quite frankly, not really fitting a game like POE2:Deadfire that focuses on writing, environement, and roleplaying. 

 

 

Also, why putting restrictions on yourself would be artificial difficulty ? Isn't it the essence of a RPG to make choices that your character would make ? Or to reflect his actual skills in the stats ?

Is your 4 resolve watcher really a coward ? Does he really know all the history of Eora, but can't even slightly bluff, has zero interest in metaphysics despite being a watcher ?

 

And more importantly: What difference does it make to your personal single player gameplay experience if you: A -  don't use an option because you think you will have more fun like this, or B- the option is simply removed from the game  ?

 

 

This is a nonsense argument. Single player games still need balance to be fun, and the place where that is most important is at the most difficult point. Anyone who wants less than the most difficult challenge can opt to make a choice within the context of the game to make it easier than doesn't involve them simply not using something available in the game. 

 

When you find a ring of overpowered overpoweredness in a game and don't use it because it's too powerful, that is definitionally artificial difficutly. When you make a game on a difficulty less than the top difficulty it is also artificial difficulty, but it doesn't require to to alter what you do in the game in a nonsensical way. It changes the entire environment, rather than making you as the player change something that makes no contextual sense in the environment. 

 

You are flatly wrong about PotD not being designed around powerbuilders; it is subjective but it is based on the ideas of the game creators. PotD triple crown in PoE1 was "subjectively" designed and balanced around mechanical prowess, and PoE2 will be the same when it is balanced; the devs have already said that they simply didn't have time to balance it and it will come in time. 

 

 

How is this alleged artificial difficulty different from difficulty? 

 

Players who want a challenge have means provided by the game to be challenged. This is irrefutable fact. Whether the ring of overpowered overpoweredness exists in the game or not doesn't change this fact.

 

The difference between artificial difficulty and difficulty is an imaginary and false concept. It's like if a rock climber would be telling a free climber: Use the ropes woman, without them it's  .. artificial difficulty. Nonsense. 

 

 

Those 2 climbers play 2 different games. 

 

 

No

[Phyriel]

 

 

How is this alleged artificial difficulty different from difficulty? 

 

Players who want a challenge have means provided by the game to be challenged. This is irrefutable fact. Whether the ring of overpowered overpoweredness exists in the game or not doesn't change this fact.

 

The difference between artificial difficulty and difficulty is an imaginary and false concept. It's like if a rock climber would be telling a free climber: Use the ropes woman, without them it's  .. artificial difficulty. Nonsense. 

 

 

Those 2 climbers play 2 different games. 

 

 

No

 

 

Haha rekt. Btw Dunehunter you were right. I just watched my stream when I was trying to test it and even tho I was surrounded by enemies few of them were using spears and they didn't actually engage me (there were no red arrows). Only two guys engaged me from that whole crowd so thats why I had +6. 

[dunehunter]

 

 

 

How is this alleged artificial difficulty different from difficulty? 

 

Players who want a challenge have means provided by the game to be challenged. This is irrefutable fact. Whether the ring of overpowered overpoweredness exists in the game or not doesn't change this fact.

 

The difference between artificial difficulty and difficulty is an imaginary and false concept. It's like if a rock climber would be telling a free climber: Use the ropes woman, without them it's  .. artificial difficulty. Nonsense. 

 

 

Those 2 climbers play 2 different games. 

 

 

No

 

 

Haha rekt. Btw Dunehunter you were right. I just watched my stream when I was trying to test it and even tho I was surrounded by enemies few of them were using spears and they didn't actually engage me (there were no red arrows). Only two guys engaged me from that whole crowd so thats why I had +6. 

 

 

Welcome

[Phyriel]

While we're at it tho. Do you know spells that work with this? https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Blackened_Plate_Armor I'm trying I'm trying to find out which spells could work with the healing part of this armor. It says damage from decay/poison/disease attacks, it means it has to be tagged as that kind of attack but can actually deal other type of damage like corrosive etc right? 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Phyriel

[Boeroer]

Druid spells with the keyword "Decay".

 

And Wizard spells with the keywords "Poinson", "Toxin" and/or "Disease".

Edited May 27, 2018 by Boeroer

[Eraflure]

I am saying you are exaggerating.

 

btw I'd like to see you play solo with a backstabbing rogue whose dumped might and perception to minimum, and pumped Resolve and Con.  All the while avoiding gear, refusing to use athletics, arcane, explosives, or alchemy.

 

 

He could end the game in less than an hour through stealth but it would be pretty boring to watch.

 

 

Don't know why you guys keep arguing with the people who don't want the game to be balanced, you don't have to convince them and the devs already believe balance is important. Just post whatever you think is overtuned, let the devs sort it out and ignore people who don't understand basic game design.

[Phyriel]

I agree, people that argue balance threads even tho devs and Josh admitted from the start it's gonna be their priority are some weirdo white knights. Balance in a single player game like poe is something entirely different than multiplayer game, it's not about leveling the field for every player, its about securing integrity of the content and having a difficulty -> challenge curve matching creators design, for every difficulty level that is. They stated that for Potd difficulty doesn't match their design so wth are you arguing here? If unnecessary white knights don't understand it... then I guess they're only true to their nature. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Phyriel

[knownastherat]

 

I am saying you are exaggerating.

 

btw I'd like to see you play solo with a backstabbing rogue whose dumped might and perception to minimum, and pumped Resolve and Con.  All the while avoiding gear, refusing to use athletics, arcane, explosives, or alchemy.

 

 

He could end the game in less than an hour through stealth but it would be pretty boring to watch.

 

 

Don't know why you guys keep arguing with the people who don't want the game to be balanced, you don't have to convince them and the devs already believe balance is important. Just post whatever you think is overtuned, let the devs sort it out and ignore people who don't understand basic game design.

 

 

No, he could not because it would not be backstabbing rogue.

 

I do not know why some keep posting false arguments about "artificial difficulty" or "non-existent challenge". As soon as they stop posting them I will stop "arguing" with them. 

 

edit: looking at virtually all solo builds (ab)using powerful mechanics and items tells me that these builds are not to seek any challenge. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by knownastherat

[TheMetaphysician]

 

I am saying you are exaggerating.

 

btw I'd like to see you play solo with a backstabbing rogue whose dumped might and perception to minimum, and pumped Resolve and Con.  All the while avoiding gear, refusing to use athletics, arcane, explosives, or alchemy.

 

 

He could end the game in less than an hour through stealth but it would be pretty boring to watch.

 

 

Don't know why you guys keep arguing with the people who don't want the game to be balanced, you don't have to convince them and the devs already believe balance is important. Just post whatever you think is overtuned, let the devs sort it out and ignore people who don't understand basic game design.

 

 

I'd like to agree with this, but the devs do actually listen to the forums somewhat, and if literally no one was defending balance and everyone was complaining about it, they might get a false impression of what the playerbase wants, wouldn't they? I want balance, and I think I have basically Sawyer's view of it; and I should probably want him to know that so that he doesn't get a false impression of his fanbase.

 

Also, in some of the debates over resting mechanics for PoE 1 in the forums years ago, I learned a ton about video game mechanics. So sometimes people really do learn new things about game design from the conversation -- not always the people posting, but sometimes people reading.

Edited May 27, 2018 by TheMetaphysician

[Phyriel]

Druid spells with the keyword "Decay".

 

And Wizard spells with the keywords "Poinson", "Toxin" and/or "Disease".

 

So for wizard thats only Noxious Burst and Malignant Cloud. Not very good item for wizard then I suppose. 

[Kaylon]

About Entonia Ring, yes it works when you're engaged, however from my testing it seems just humans can engage you, which means the requirements aren't meet very often...

[rackhir]

 

So, really what we are saying is "don't play the game".  Avoid everything in the game in order to artificially ramp up difficulty.  Makes sense. 

 

I get your point, but what about players who enjoy overpower? Is nerf fair to them?

 

I don't know how hard to do it, but i think difficulty setting should alter some fundamental of gameplay such as class instead of just adjust number and those should be optional such as expert mode instead of all nerf base on difficulty alone.

 

You wanna be overpowered play story mode.  That playstyle is already supported fully.