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Nowadays companies don't pay beta testers or community managers, you are expected to do it for free and for some companies in the gaming industry support is also done by unpaid volunteers, why is beyond me unless the product is being made by a non-profit, but whatever. OFC the more companies do this, the more common it gets because companies that pay people eventually cannot compete with those that do not, etc. In the case of Deadfire, I think people actually paid to beta test during the crowdfunding. Anyway, throwing imperfect things on the market seems to be a modern thing. I used to argue about it with my ex boss, who said it's better to release something broken and fix it later than to spend more time trying to make it perfect- I still don't understand the reasoning but apparently it somehow ends up being more profitable. *shrug*

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Nowadays companies don't pay beta testers or community managers, you are expected to do it for free and for some companies in the gaming industry support is also done by unpaid volunteers, why is beyond me unless the product is being made by a non-profit, but whatever. OFC the more companies do this, the more common it gets because companies that pay people eventually cannot compete with those that do not, etc. In the case of Deadfire, I think people actually paid to beta test during the crowdfunding. Anyway, throwing imperfect things on the market seems to be a modern thing. I used to argue about it with my ex boss, who said it's better to release something broken and fix it later than to spend more time trying to make it perfect- I still don't understand the reasoning but apparently it somehow ends up being more profitable. *shrug*

 

I wouldn't want to wait for Obsidian to discover all bugs, fix them and release a bug free product, or even a reasonably bug free product. I want to play the game sooner. But this is because I don't mind to restart the game if some game breaking bug corrupted my save. With PoE 1 I restarted the game many times even without encountering any bugs. I kept making characters.

 

Other players are not like this. They want to have a bug free game because they tend to play the game from start to end which can  take them months. This is absolutely reasonable and there is a solution to this - wait until the game is sufficiently patched. This way those who don't care too much about bugs can play happily and even help with testing.

 

End result: the game is fixed much sooner that it would otherwise.

This is the realistic way to produce games. Attempting to only release bug free games is not going to work and can bankrupt the company.

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Nowadays companies don't pay beta testers or community managers, you are expected to do it for free and for some companies in the gaming industry support is also done by unpaid volunteers, why is beyond me unless the product is being made by a non-profit, but whatever. OFC the more companies do this, the more common it gets because companies that pay people eventually cannot compete with those that do not, etc. In the case of Deadfire, I think people actually paid to beta test during the crowdfunding. Anyway, throwing imperfect things on the market seems to be a modern thing. I used to argue about it with my ex boss, who said it's better to release something broken and fix it later than to spend more time trying to make it perfect- I still don't understand the reasoning but apparently it somehow ends up being more profitable. *shrug*

 

I wouldn't want to wait for Obsidian to discover all bugs, fix them and release a bug free product, or even a reasonably bug free product. I want to play the game sooner. But this is because I don't mind to restart the game if some game breaking bug corrupted my save. With PoE 1 I restarted the game many times even without encountering any bugs. I kept making characters.

 

Other players are not like this. They want to have a bug free game because they tend to play the game from start to end which can  take them months. This is absolutely reasonable and there is a solution to this - wait until the game is sufficiently patched. This way those who don't care too much about bugs can play happily and even help with testing.

 

End result: the game is fixed much sooner that it would otherwise.

This is the realistic way to produce games. Attempting to only release bug free games is not going to work and can bankrupt the company.

 

There's a difference between bug free and ridden with bugs that would have been avoidable given just a bit more testing (as evidenced by the amount of bugs reported in the first week) OR releasing the game as early access/open beta. What's wrong with a disclaimer that makes people realise they might not be buying a polished product? I'm not one of the people who's super annoyed by it - or I wouldn't play it (the only thing that really annoys me is Aloth) - but at the same time I can understand why someone who spent 60 $ is going to be miffed. Aside from quests not working if you do them in the "wrong" order or for no apparent reason (the game skipped half of Aloth's quest for me this time for no reason I can figure out), there are lots of weps with faulty descriptions, and a lot of the scripted interactions are littered with mistakes. I had one where I got Pallegina to do something, yet the game had Xoti, who wasn't in my party do it and Pallegina approved or disapproved (don't remember), for instance. You can't just tell people who bought a game expecting it to be finished that they should have waited  - thus basically blaming them - it's not eaxctly cheap, and the bug-fixated negative reviews aren't doing it any favours. Also lots of people don't even visit forums etc and are just going to quit playing if their game bloops on them and tell their friends not to buy it.

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Nowadays companies don't pay beta testers or community managers, you are expected to do it for free and for some companies in the gaming industry support is also done by unpaid volunteers, why is beyond me unless the product is being made by a non-profit, but whatever. OFC the more companies do this, the more common it gets because companies that pay people eventually cannot compete with those that do not, etc. In the case of Deadfire, I think people actually paid to beta test during the crowdfunding. Anyway, throwing imperfect things on the market seems to be a modern thing. I used to argue about it with my ex boss, who said it's better to release something broken and fix it later than to spend more time trying to make it perfect- I still don't understand the reasoning but apparently it somehow ends up being more profitable. *shrug*

 

I wouldn't want to wait for Obsidian to discover all bugs, fix them and release a bug free product, or even a reasonably bug free product. I want to play the game sooner. But this is because I don't mind to restart the game if some game breaking bug corrupted my save. With PoE 1 I restarted the game many times even without encountering any bugs. I kept making characters.

 

Other players are not like this. They want to have a bug free game because they tend to play the game from start to end which can  take them months. This is absolutely reasonable and there is a solution to this - wait until the game is sufficiently patched. This way those who don't care too much about bugs can play happily and even help with testing.

 

End result: the game is fixed much sooner that it would otherwise.

This is the realistic way to produce games. Attempting to only release bug free games is not going to work and can bankrupt the company.

 

There's a difference between bug free and ridden with bugs that would have been avoidable given just a bit more testing (as evidenced by the amount of bugs reported in the first week) OR releasing the game as early access/open beta. What's wrong with a disclaimer that makes people realise they might not be buying a polished product? I'm not one of the people who's super annoyed by it - or I wouldn't play it (the only thing that really annoys me is Aloth) - but at the same time I can understand why someone who spent 60 $ is going to be miffed. Aside from quests not working if you do them in the "wrong" order or for no apparent reason (the game skipped half of Aloth's quest for me this time for no reason I can figure out), there are lots of weps with faulty descriptions, and a lot of the scripted interactions are littered with mistakes. I had one where I got Pallegina to do something, yet the game had Xoti, who wasn't in my party do it and Pallegina approved or disapproved (don't remember), for instance. You can't just tell people who bought a game expecting it to be finished that they should have waited  - thus basically blaming them - it's not eaxctly cheap, and the bug-fixated negative reviews aren't doing it any favours. Also lots of people don't even visit forums etc and are just going to quit playing if their game bloops on them and tell their friends not to buy it.

 

 

You are right on most points except one: the bugs would not have been avoidable with a bit more testing. They even wouldn't have been avoidable with six months more testing. Obsidian delayed the game for one month precisely to fix bugs. Yet there still are.

What's more, some of the bugs cannot be discovered at all with in house testing, because of the huge variety of computer configurations out there.

 

It is easy to think that some bug which is already known could have been found with some more testing. But the problem for the testers is  - they don't know where to expect bugs. The space that has to be searched for bugs when you don't know where they are is enormous. Maybe during this additional month they have tested like crasy a great many things which were not broken at all  - wasting time on them. They cannot test just the things that are broken because there is no way to know beforehand which things are broken and which are not.

Edited by wih
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What's more, some of the bugs cannot be discovered at all with in house testing, because of the huge variety of computer configurations out there.

 

Some dealbreaker bugs can and they don't depend on PC configuration. You know, import, respec and stuff. Bug-free programs likely don't exict, but games which you can actually start playing do.

Pillars of Bugothas

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What's more, some of the bugs cannot be discovered at all with in house testing, because of the huge variety of computer configurations out there.

 

Some dealbreaker bugs can and they don't depend on PC configuration. You know, import, respec and stuff. Bug-free programs likely don't exict, but games which you can actually start playing do.

 

Sure. I was thinking of the Mac owners, who were unable to play the game for nearly a week. That was sad. It is very, very desirable that the players are at least able to start and play the game. We can agree this is a minimum requirement.

 

But can Obsidian make sure that each one of the potential players will be able to start and play the game? And what would that involve? What steps they need to take to guarantee and be absolutely certain that no player will suffer what Mac users suffered? Or the import bug and the other deal breakers?

 

Ok, suppose they decide to test one more month. They'll find some more bugs. And then? Is the game ready now? Or should they test yet another month? How can they know?

 

I am not trying to say that releasing a game with bugs is Ok. This situation is absolutely not ideal. I am saying that modern games and especially RPGs are so complex that there is no way for the game companies to be sure they are releasing a reasonably well tested product. At least not if they are also in a competitive environment when multiple delays are unacceptable.

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But can Obsidian make sure that each one of the potential players will be able to start and play the game? And what would that involve? What steps they need to take to guarantee and be absolutely certain that no player will suffer what Mac users suffered? Or the import bug and the other deal breakers?

 

It's simple. You can't be “absolutely certain” in anything, but it doesn't mean it's impossible to do anything at all. On day 1 bug forum exploded with reports. You let your players test things and then actually read their reports. It isn't exactly rocket science.

 

And we aren't talking about abstract bugs that depend on hardware configuration or minor bugs which only happen when you do something obscure in a remote corner of the map when it is Tuesday here.

Pillars of Bugothas

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But can Obsidian make sure that each one of the potential players will be able to start and play the game? And what would that involve? What steps they need to take to guarantee and be absolutely certain that no player will suffer what Mac users suffered? Or the import bug and the other deal breakers?

 

It's simple. You can't be “absolutely certain” in anything, but it doesn't mean it's impossible to do anything at all. On day 1 bug forum exploded with reports. You let your players test things and then actually read their reports. It isn't exactly rocket science.

 

And we aren't talking about abstract bugs that depend on hardware configuration or minor bugs which only happen when you do something obscure in a remote corner of the map when it is Tuesday here.

 

 

Ok, let's forget about the hardware bugs. You are saying that they don't respond to the bug reports from the support forum? I had an impression that they are working hard on fixing the bugs. They didn't respond on the cosmetic bug I reported but other players also reported it and I assume they know about it. Probably they give priority to the most serious bugs.

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The problem is that there shouldn't be THAT many reports in the first place, not if they respond to those.

Hardware/visuals bugs are allowed ( to some degree ).

 

As per "when the game is ready", its simple. The game is ready when a satisfactory percentage of your testers report that they finished the game without any bugs in the gameplay/storyprogression elements of the game. And since they are in a competitive environment as you say , you can change the "any bugs" restriction to "leaving minor&&timeconsuming bugs for a future patch". 

 

But for the love of gods how you can release a game that is not balanced? To be more specific because balance in a game means many things at once, how can you not realize that your hardest difficulty isn't even hard and release the game? ( Especially on cRPGs that most players are at the very least "veterans" in the genre and those players are the one's that will bring new players to the game/genre and not any PR or advertisement )

 

This isn't on the scale of:

user:"oh there is an broken combo/exploit in the game"

dev:"I will fix it right away. Damn and here I though it was bulletproof, well at least I learned something that will make my next work better".

 

Its on a scale of

user:"did you know your hardest difficulty is not even hard by everyone's standard?"

dev:"give me 10 mins to kill myself please because I am that much ashamed".

 

For anyone that thinks I got something against Obsidian, you are right I do after release of POE 2. And the sugarcoating that I see from PR's posts and free dlc only make things worse.

They have gone wrong on so many angles this time that I am pretty sure I will buy their future products at reduced price and they can forget future support and "mouth-to-mouth" advertisement from me. ( Yes I will still buy their games , I cannot deny their END product are awesome )

Edited by Spoting
 Between the "real thing" and the "indistinguishable fake" which is worth more?

 

-Of course, the real thing worth more.

 

-They have equal value.

 

-The fake is of far greater value. In its deliberate attempt to be real,

its more "real" than the real thing.

 

~The choice is yours~

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I am not some uptight axxhole

 

Here's where you went wrong....

How can anyone in their right mind try to ship a multimillion dollar product without making absolutely sure that they don't upset all their players with a degree in Medieval English Linguistics?

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 That's right. That is what the OP meant. You understood correctly and so,  the usage was sufficient for you to understand. That is how language actually works.  Recently, some people in universities, who should be educated enough to know better, have mistakenly thought they could control how others speak. It won't work, so you may just wish to ignore it.

 

 "Triggered" will mean whatever it ends up meaning based on usage - those who are triggered by that fact will be in for a rough time as it is just how language works. They will become even more triggered when newly born children begin to acquire language and learn a meaning of 'triggered' that has nothing to do with the accepted definition but is, instead, consistent with how people actually speak. It's best not to be triggered by any of this.

 

Seems like someone was triggered. Cry elsewhere.

 

 

 

What are you talking about? Are you under the impression that word meanings are derived from something other than usage?

 

If so, you (like the poster who initially attempted to redefine a word for all of us) don't understand how language works. If you have still missed the point, feel free to ask a clarifying question.

 

Since you used the word 'triggered' in exactly the same way I did, I'm going to assume that you just misunderstood the thread.

Edited by Yonjuro
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I am not some uptight axxhole

 

Here's where you went wrong....

Care to explain?

 Between the "real thing" and the "indistinguishable fake" which is worth more?

 

-Of course, the real thing worth more.

 

-They have equal value.

 

-The fake is of far greater value. In its deliberate attempt to be real,

its more "real" than the real thing.

 

~The choice is yours~

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For anyone that thinks I got something against Obsidian, you are right I do after release of POE 2. And the sugarcoating that I see from PR's posts and free dlc only make things worse.

They have gone wrong on so many angles this time that I am pretty sure I will buy their future products at reduced price and they can forget future support and "mouth-to-mouth" advertisement from me. ( Yes I will still buy their games , I cannot deny their END product are awesome )

 

So free DLC are bad? Well, that's your opinion but let's agree to disagree on that front. 

 

I could agree on some points the OP made but to be perfectly honest the ranting can be a bit irksome. 

 

Frankly sugarcoating as you put it is no better than whining. It's ok to be complaining but starting a rant about planning to bad mouth Obsidian and not buying their games full price is really beside the point. 

 

Truth is, the OP chose to buy the game at release which means that either he or she knew that the game wouldn't be fully patched or balanced at that point OR he or she doesn't know much about how game releases work (we can agree that it's a pity games are released in such a state it doesn't change the fact that it's a general thing and it's true of almost every game these days including games like The Witcher 3 which was universally acclaimed and received a boatload of free DLC). 

 

By now it should be common knowledge that games are not fully patched at release so if you intend to play a finished product you're better off waiting until they are fully patched (and presumably cheaper as well which doesn't hurt if you want to save a bit). 

 

If Pillars of Eternity 2 Deadfire is the first game that made the OP realise that fact then I guess it's a life lesson but bad mouthing Obsidian for a release that is far from being as terrible as some people say (I get some players have issues but right now the game can be completed even if there is definitely room for improvement) doesn't seem that fair or even accurate. 

 

That's especially true if you're going to end a post by saying that their "END product are awesome" (which is something we can agree on). 

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Gloomseeker thanks for the reply.

 

I can get how my complaining can be irksome , but I don't see any ranting. Except if you wanna imply that what I say are things I create from my imagination just to badmouth obsidian.( which I dont believe you do )

 

There is a fundamental difference between knowing that the game wont be fully patched or balanced and knowing that a company will try to make paid customers as testers or that their plan is to release>fixbugs>polish instead of fixbugs>release>fix new and some leftover bugs>polish.

And of course I am going to complain about the specific company that does that. Even if they do everything else flawless.

 

Well, since I don't fully understand how you mean "bad mouth" I won't comment on that.

 

Also, going in depth why free DLC ( or rather, why specific forms of free DLC ) are bad is another huge topic so, ye let's agree to disagree.

Edited by Spoting
 Between the "real thing" and the "indistinguishable fake" which is worth more?

 

-Of course, the real thing worth more.

 

-They have equal value.

 

-The fake is of far greater value. In its deliberate attempt to be real,

its more "real" than the real thing.

 

~The choice is yours~

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Also guys, I used the word triggered cause in my poor understanding I thought it kinda meant something like "by an action my frustration and inner voice surfaced". I am sorry if it's wrong but let's please not focus on that, it's beside the scope of the post. 

 

 

 

EDIT: Also stop answering there cannot be bug free games. I never said I except bug free releases ( quite the contrary ). Also "most bugs" or "80%"( which is clearly used as an equivalent to " many " and not literally ) does not mean ALL and will never do.

Edited by Spoting
 Between the "real thing" and the "indistinguishable fake" which is worth more?

 

-Of course, the real thing worth more.

 

-They have equal value.

 

-The fake is of far greater value. In its deliberate attempt to be real,

its more "real" than the real thing.

 

~The choice is yours~

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Spoting, it is understandable that you are frustrated with the bugs. It is also understandable that you want to punish a company for doing something that you consider unethical. 

 

However, are you really certain that Obsidian is the right target for such punishment? This is a company that focuses on making niche games which generally don't bring huge profits. It was even on a brink of a financial collapse not so long ago.

It doesn't have the means of the larger game studios that also release buggy games.

One goal of these RPGs is to give the player as much freedom as possible - which means great possibilities for bugs.

To find all those bugs on time, they are going to need an army of testers. Can you really compare 30 or 50 testers to 30 or 50 thousands of players? Who is going to find more bugs?

 

To me, and probably to other Obsidian fans, it seems that these attempts to punish Obsidian are simply misguided. That they aren't going to teach companies to be more ethical but will make it even harder to produce this kind of RPGs.

Please also consider the fact that these isometric RPGs  simply weren't made for like 10 or more years. Game publishers were convinced that there's no point to make them.

 

I hope you can understand why such complaints can be taken as irksome. They can feel like attacks on the very existence of this kind of RPGs. Of course, this is probably overreaction - and yet we are hoping to get PoE 3 and this is not a sure thing. It depends on the success of Deadfire.

 

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Since when paying full price means:

 

-I will be getting frustrated because of numerous bugs ruining my first ( and most important ) experience with the game ?

 

-I have to create an extra account so I will report some of the bugs I encounter, essentially being a tester? ( and in my case your posts being ignored for no reason , but this is more of a personal matter so you can ignore I even mentioned this ).

 

-I will be playing an unbalanced game?

 

-I will be thanked constantly for my feedback or whatever like I joined some kind of cult that wants my money and keep saying Thanks in the most polite way. Or I will be getting free DLC one week after release date just so I can close my mouth or immobilize my fingers and think "you are the best"?

 

I got ton more to speak of and I will leave the paid DLC release 2 months after launch day.

 

I am not some uptight axxhole that won't tolerate bugs or unbalancing issues on newly launched games, but in this game they are not even close to the limits of my tolerance meter( and shouldn't be in any paid customer's meter ).

 

My biggest problem is why I will have to pay full or ANY price to be a tester, when the 80% of the current bugs would be easily identified if you paid 5 guys to play the game for 3-4 days and give them 1 day to report their bugs. 

 

I won't imply I know how companies works and what makes them rushing games like that but this is unacceptable, you are selling a product not a service.

 

Of course I am at fault too since I trusted this(and whatever "this") company and did a day one purchase.

 

This post is mostly saying my piece of mind and if my mentality on this matter is wrong please you are free to tell me why. I will take your words in full consideration.

 

As much as I dislike bugs in a game, some portion of them will be hardware dependant (like game crashes). It's quite impossible to test that with five people in 3-4 days. Not saying they are all like that (probably most aren't), just pointing out there are always going to be bugs. 

 

I guess what you are saying is that 'this game is a bit buggier on release than it ideally should be', and that's probably true. It's not quite of Arcanum and steamworks obscura but it's not as clean as a first release as some other games. It's a small studio I suppose. I don't personally know enough about the whole coding workflow to know what is typical. 

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Spoting, it is understandable that you are frustrated with the bugs. It is also understandable that you want to punish a company for doing something that you consider unethical. 

 

However, are you really certain that Obsidian is the right target for such punishment? This is a company that focuses on making niche games which generally don't bring huge profits. It was even on a brink of a financial collapse not so long ago.

It doesn't have the means of the larger game studios that also release buggy games.

One goal of these RPGs is to give the player as much freedom as possible - which means great possibilities for bugs.

To find all those bugs on time, they are going to need an army of testers. Can you really compare 30 or 50 testers to 30 or 50 thousands of players? Who is going to find more bugs?

 

To me, and probably to other Obsidian fans, it seems that these attempts to punish Obsidian are simply misguided. That they aren't going to teach companies to be more ethical but will make it even harder to produce this kind of RPGs.

Please also consider the fact that these isometric RPGs  simply weren't made for like 10 or more years. Game publishers were convinced that there's no point to make them.

 

I hope you can understand why such complaints can be taken as irksome. They can feel like attacks on the very existence of this kind of RPGs. Of course, this is probably overreaction - and yet we are hoping to get PoE 3 and this is not a sure thing. It depends on the success of Deadfire.

 

As an isometric RPG lover myself, you pretty much opened my eyes to a new perspective that I (regrettably) didn't think of. Thank you for that.

While I won't take back the words I said before , I will at least subdue my frustration. Hats off to you.

 

Clear skies

Edited by Spoting
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 Between the "real thing" and the "indistinguishable fake" which is worth more?

 

-Of course, the real thing worth more.

 

-They have equal value.

 

-The fake is of far greater value. In its deliberate attempt to be real,

its more "real" than the real thing.

 

~The choice is yours~

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What are you talking about? Are you under the impression that word meanings are derived from something other than usage?

 

If so, you (like the poster who initially attempted to redefine a word for all of us) don't understand how language works. If you have still missed the point, feel free to ask a clarifying question.

 

Since you used the word 'triggered' in exactly the same way I did, I'm going to assume that you just misunderstood the thread.

 

You're so triggered, man.

---

We're all doomed

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