Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

The cipher changes are both not as big a deal as they might seem, but also kinda painful, too. I went over this in another thread ( https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/83913-cipher-30-roll-a-wizard-instead/) but basically they've lost their "wow" factor; you end up using your early level powers through most of the midgame too. The problem is that because of the higher focus costs, a lot of the middle-game cipher powers just aren't worth the time cost to gather the focus for them any more. Puppet Master costs three times as much as Whisper of Treason for the same 10 second's worth of charm-type effect. Body Attunement lasts only 15 seconds but costs 40 focus -- before, it was a good way to raise your focus gain vs. bosses, now it costs more than you gain back. Tactical Meld and Borrowed Instinct used to be great for boss fights, but now by the time you've got the focus for them, the wizard and the priest have already dumped three or four major debuffs each the cipher's extra debuff is superfluous. This middle-game slump has always been an issue for ciphers, really -- the rank 4 and rank 5 powers have always been kinda lackluster, and the level 1,2, and 3 powers were always a cipher's staples -- but these changes plus the prior nerfs to Mental Binding have really brought it into focus. Net result is ciphers now basically get all their good tools by level 5 or so and have to keep using that toolbox through level 10. My replay party is at level 9-10 right now, so things might change once I get the high level powers like Amplified Wave. The class is still perfectly playable and my Cipher character still has the highest damage total in the party, just from her blunderbuss, Soul Shock, and Ectopsychic Echo, but there are a lot of levels where the other party members are getting fancy new tools and the cipher is pretty much doing the same thing they were doing before. ------------ That said otherwise I like the patch. There's a weird bug where I don't always get an "accept" button visual, but that might predate the patch. There are some missing strings. I have a weird bug where sometimes enemy debuffs don't clear from my character sheet (though they aren't active, it's just a visual thing). The AI has improved but still makes some basic mistakes like using Charm on creatures that I know are charm immune, or always summoning first-level chanter summons instead of waiting to build phrases for better summons. The stronghold quests are a nice addition as are the items (though some of them, like the Witch's Hat, seem to be missing textures).

Charmed enemies attack other enemies plus its duration is a little longer than Whisper of Treason. Whisper of Treason's advantage is the fact it also inflicts Frightened on top of Confuse and has a shorter casting time. Its more of preference thing really. I personally prefer Charm but I can see why others would prefer Tenuous Grasp. Yeah, slightly longer duration and it usually takes two enemies out of the fight, the target and the target's new target. i don't like Tenuous Grasp because it's shorter duration and Confuse is unreliable (I discount the fear effect because so many other powers grant fear, including a Chanter phrase). If I want a debuff I prefer Eyestrike because of the AoE.

Yes, and you should. There are at least four level one powers you want to take -- mind blast, soul shock, eyestrike, and whisper of treason. Personally I think the smart move is to only take two level 3 powers (Echo and Pain Link) and grab the fourth level 1 power then.

Eyestrike has always had an AoE; it's one of the cipher's best powers overall. It seemed pretty clear at game release that Cipher powers, especially the higher-level ones, had never really gotten that final polishing pass. Things like some of them being useable out of combat just emphasize that. I suspect, at this point, that the big problem with these changes is that they're going to leave the Cipher too weak during the midgame. Levels 1 to 5 or so you're doing mostly fine, largely because the low level powers are mostly good. You might bork up your character if you take the wrong powers but there are enough good ones that you'll probably get a useable character. Problem comes in between level 5 and 10. There aren't any generally useable "wow, that's cool" powers you get at those levels. There are a few that are situationally useful (Borrowed Instinct and Tactical Meld are good for boss encounters) but by the time you gather the focus for them they feel anticlimactic. By the time you're dropping Tactical Meld, the party's wizard has dropped Arduous Delay AND combusting wounds AND expose vulnerabilities (and per rest doesn't matter because it's a boss fight anyway).

They're about 20 seconds or so now I'd say. During my first playthrough during initial release they were probably two or three times that.

If this change means that the weaker Cipher powers get an upgrade pass to balance out their higher costs, it could end up as a net win for the class. There's always been about a four to six level gap (depending on your choices) where Ciphers didn't really get any powers that were that great. The main thing this change has done is put those differences into sharper focus. I'm up to level 9 in my 3.0 Beta replay now, working my way down through the Endless Paths, and honestly my moment to moment gameplay hasn't changed much from the last time I ran a cipher through these levels. I'm using Whisper of Treason instead of Puppet Master, obviously. Biggest change is probably that I'm using Mental Binding less but that's not due to the 3.0 changes -- seems like it's been hit with its own independent duration nerf, which is aggravating (I think it could use a couple extra seconds in base duration from where it is now). There are a lot of cipher powers that could be good if they got tweaked, even at the new "price points". Body Attunement would be great if it had twice the duration -- as it is now it doesn't pay for itself. Silent Scream wouldn't be bad if it were an AoE stun or if it did more damage. Puppet Master also needs its duration doubled at least. I'm sure other folks can name other specific powers in this vein. I've also been playing with Pain Link but I can't figure out how to spot the damage from it in the combat log so I can't verify it's doing anything. It's more a button I press to empty my focus meter than anything else.

I wouldn't recomend that guide, many new players who read it end up thinking you need to minmax and use each class in a specific role to be effective. The builds in this particular sub-forum are better alternatives for someone trying to see what is possible and learn how make one's own builds. The problem with the guides in this forum, though, is that most of them are significantly outdated. My blunderbuss cipher build is still one of the top google results for "pillars of eternity character builds" -- someone "liked" it as recently as this morning -- but the original post was largely based on the Backer Beta and I can't go back and edit it . There are newer guides and advice in here but everything's chaotically organized at best and there are relatively few detailed, coherent, up-to-date, easily found builds for each class That particular Steam guide DOES have a lot of issues but it's (relatively) up to date and I think as a source of ideas it's still worth looking at.

I am quite aware of that, my point is the paladin was never as bad as people made him and the Sacred Immolation is actually WAY stronger than any of those buffs and came months later. The same way the cipher will not be unplayable all of a sudden, especially if you factor in Spell mastery. Well, I think the concern is that these changes are coming at the end of the development cycle for the game. It sounds like White March is going to be the last expansion; after that are they still going to do major balancing patches? So if they don't get Ciphers tweaked appropriately now, there won't be time for the up-tweak cycle to happen.

Hrm. Is Eldritch Aim still worth it if you have a priest or other accuracy buffer in the party? Up to level 9 now so have to choose! Tempted to just give Aloth Slicken and Durance Armor of Faith.

Hah, ok, let me try to break this down into simpler terms for you. First thing is that PoE doesn't really have any "dump stats" on a class basis, but it does on a build basis. i.e., you can make a High-int, Low-strength barbarian character and make it effective, but you have to pick the right skills and weapons for that kind of build. Might gives a damage bonus on every swing / spell / action. Good for everyone who deals damage. Con just gives 5% more health per point. This is generally a good stat for barbarians but extra points can be a bit of a waste -- as long as you have enough to not die, you have all you need. Per is a bonus on your to-hit roll. Very useful on PotD, good for everyone, but not as necessary. Dex is action speed. HIgher dex you'll do everything faster. Int is duration of buffs and area of AoE's. Good for longer Frenzy, higher Carnage area, etc. Resolve is deflection -- i.e., chance the enemy hits you in combat. Higher your resolve, less often you'll be hit. So all of those are good for some kinds of barbarians, depending on what kind you want to play. You can play one that's slow but hard-hitting, or fast and hard hitting but dumb, or fast and hard hitting and smart but fragile, etc. etc. etc. One popular build drops Resolve low but makes it up in Con -- you get hit a lot but you can take the hits because of how tough you are. I've got a barbarian in my party right now that has high Int, Dex, and Per, but low Might and Res, and it performs very well (but she's geared out in a very specific way). What I want is a barbarian that fits hard and fast, but he's not the smartest. That's what, I think, my sirst biuld is: Death Godlike with stats: Might19, Con9, Dex10, Per18, Int13, Res9. 19 might to hit hard 9 con, because he's not a tank, rather 2nd line DD 10 Dex, average hit rate 18 Per for accuracy (especially with 2h) 13 Int, because Int is important also (but for this build not very) 9 Res, because it will only lower deflection a little (see con) My question is: is it legit? Is it viable? Will it take me through the entire game at hard difficulty without MUCH trouble? Given right perks, talents and equipment. of course? Or should I better reconsider it before it is too late (I've just recently recruited what's-his-face fighter near the hangman tree in Gilded Vale). I know, that I can lower difficulty, but I want to play at hard. That is question, I want to address to you. You can make anything work and that build would probably be able to finish the game just fine. Personally, though, if you are not playing on PotD (and I wouldn't advise PotD for a first playthrough -- it's genuinely extremely difficult if you don't know what you're doing yet), I wouldn't take Per that high (you're going to get enough buffs and gear to raise your accuracy as much as you need it raised), and I'd put those points into Int and Con. Barbarians have a very high base Endurance and Health, so the Con bonus really helps them and the con penalty really hurts them; you don't want it negative, and it's a really good idea to have a couple extra points there. Int I wouldn't take below 15 or so. If you don't mind slight item/gear spoilers there are some interesting builds here : http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=416939844 They aren't perfect I don't think but they have good ideas worth thinking about.

I'm up to level 9 now and it is starting to make a difference. The problem is some of the higher-tier powers don't scale as well any more given how long it takes to gather the focus for them. For example, Puppet Master costs three times what Whisper of Treason does, for the same duration of charm; Body Attunement lasts fifteen seconds when you've spent twice that gathering the focus for it; silent scream does minimal damage for the focus expended. Some powers on the other hand still seem ok. All the staple low level powers are still just as good as they ever were (well, Mind Blast and Mental Binding were nerfed a little too hard in a prior patch it seems, but they're still somewhat serviceable) and some of the higher powers are still good too just more situational now.

If we're going canonical, in Howard's Conan stories he's represented as fairly intelligent, just also strong and fast. In Lore for this game, barbarians are just using traditional tribal fighting styles. More Scandinavian or Celtic berserkers.

Sounds dead to me, you might need to revert to an earlier save. Sometimes some traps can effectively one-hit-kill party members even if you have the 'maimed" option on because they'll hit twice in rapid succession.

Hah, ok, let me try to break this down into simpler terms for you. First thing is that PoE doesn't really have any "dump stats" on a class basis, but it does on a build basis. i.e., you can make a High-int, Low-strength barbarian character and make it effective, but you have to pick the right skills and weapons for that kind of build. Might gives a damage bonus on every swing / spell / action. Good for everyone who deals damage. Con just gives 5% more health per point. This is generally a good stat for barbarians but extra points can be a bit of a waste -- as long as you have enough to not die, you have all you need. Per is a bonus on your to-hit roll. Very useful on PotD, good for everyone, but not as necessary. Dex is action speed. HIgher dex you'll do everything faster. Int is duration of buffs and area of AoE's. Good for longer Frenzy, higher Carnage area, etc. Resolve is deflection -- i.e., chance the enemy hits you in combat. Higher your resolve, less often you'll be hit. So all of those are good for some kinds of barbarians, depending on what kind you want to play. You can play one that's slow but hard-hitting, or fast and hard hitting but dumb, or fast and hard hitting and smart but fragile, etc. etc. etc. One popular build drops Resolve low but makes it up in Con -- you get hit a lot but you can take the hits because of how tough you are. I've got a barbarian in my party right now that has high Int, Dex, and Per, but low Might and Res, and it performs very well (but she's geared out in a very specific way).

Yeah, that's absolute true. I'm just making the point because I think people get distracted by "0 recovery" and forget that the recovery animation is only half the action animation, and dex still helps reduce the other half, even if all your other gear gets you to zero recovery. So dex is still valuable for speed builds even if stacking all relevant gear.

Hrm. I'd actually draw the opposite conclusion; Dex has increasing marginal returns as you stack other speed enhancing gear. As I posted in the speed thread: Another way of phrasing this: the more you invest in speed, the larger your fractional gain from each additional point of dex is going to be. Each point of dexterity takes 3% off of a standard 66-frame attack and recovery animation, i.e, roughly two frames. On the other hand, if your recovery is down to 0, it'll take one frame off of a 30 frame animation -- but that one frame reduction is a bigger chunk of 30 than two frames are a chunk of 66 (because the recovery animation has a few extra frames). Overall it's a small effect but percentage-wise you're actually gaining more from Dex, relative to what you would be with 10 dex, the more speed you stack. Of course you are correct that in absolute terms the gains are smaller -- your dex is shaving off fewer frames per attack, the more speed you stack -- but percentage-wise over the course of many attacks, at zero recovery, each additional point of Dex is making you attack again faster than each point is doing at 100% recovery.

No major changes so far that I've found. As to items, everything I can find related to focus gain seems to also be nerfed or at least changed. For example, the drugs are all changed now and much less useful since they debuff essential stats. Similarly, the Drinking Horn of Moderation no longer buffs focus gain. There is still the Brishalgwin Mindmarker but it's neck slot so you probably want a different item there. That said as a general thing the Leadspitter kablammo-for-focus approach still seems to work, especially if targets are debuffed. I'm routinely hitting 50+ focus even at level 7. The real question will come as I hit the higher level game and start facing very high DR enemies, especially ones with piercing immunity.

The value of debuffs, especially status effects like blinded, sickened, weakened, etc. You have to really get in the weeds of the numbers to realize how effective they are and what a big difference they make. It's not something you really need to understand unless you're playing on PotD but once you do it can make even the toughest fights a relative cakewalk. The utility of priest and druid spells. You get so many of them at once it's hard to process them all or realize when they're useful. Edit: for an example, look at Blinded status effect. It gives -20 accuracy, -20 Deflection, -20 reflex, -2 move speed, -4 Perception. And the level 1 Cipher power Eyestrike applies it in an AoE. Hit opponents with that and they'll start grazing and missing you and you'll start hitting and critting them. Stack that with some other debuff and you've functionally ended the fight.

I like the overall system design but the problem is one shared by Paladins -- Barbarians need ALL their stats at high levels and thus can't specialize effectively. A weapon size modifier for Carnage AoE might help. I wouldn't suggest eliminating Int's benefit to carnage but it might not be horrible to base the Carnage AoE base value on the weapon size, perhaps with larger areas for two-handed and reach weapons. EDIT vvv ok, I think we're arguing semantics. By "specialize effectively" I meant what you seem to mean by "unable to minmax." vvvv

Hey, I said "might". Let me actually get to the higher levels with this playthrough and I'll give a detailed report then. For Now though I am still using "higher level" powers about as often as I did before, just further into the fight. I do expect to use the highest level powers quite rarely given the cost tradeoff. The single biggest change I've seen so far is that now Whisper of Treason is far more useful than Puppet Master. Before it was sortof a tradeoff because there were so many other good level 1 powers. Now with the cost difference you should just take Whisper instead, flat out. Puppet's a really good example of a power that needs its duration significantly lengthened now.

Actually I'll admit that for the higher level powers at least that might actually be a concern if you aren't playing on PotD. On PotD though so far it isn't an issue. The Cipher is just the closer instead of the opener now. edit: it might not be an issue, I just haven't played with these changes on Normal or Hard so I can't speak to them. I can say it isn't a concern on PotD.

Yeah, this is why the high level powers need longer durations now. It is a "real nerf". I won't say the high level powers "needed" a nerf because this is a single player game, but some of them did trivialize gameplay. You could just slam Amplified Wave every fight without limitation or thought. So I understand why they're making this change. (And don't forget, they've already cut initial starting focus too, down from half of max focus like it was at release, to a quarter). But the secondary effect -- as you point out -- is that now some of the higher level CC and buffing powers cost so much focus for such short durations that it's impossible to really use them effectively. The pacing of cipher fights has changed. You work for a minute of gameplay to build focus for something, you want a significant duration to that effect.

High level cipher powers have always been a little strange because two-thirds of them were useless or weirdly situational, and the remaining third were so powerful it almost felt cheap to use them at all (amplified wave, Ringleader, etc.) Most of the really good cipher powers are low level and thus still fairly cheap (first level powers are unchanged; Mental Binding costs 15 instead of 20 now; Ectopsychic Echo is 30 instead of 20). Last time I did a cipher playthrough I barely even used the high-level powers; i expect this change won't change that all that much. What I *do* think they need to do is lengthen the *durations* of some Cipher powers. They've cut down the durations on a lot of them already, but coupled with the cost increases, the pacing of Cipher fights has really changed. If it takes you a minute to work up the focus to cast something, you want it to last more than ten seconds. I agree that the drug changes are bad. There's little reason to use any of them now.

I've been playing a cipher in the new beta and so far the changes aren't that bad, but I'm only up to level seven so far so it'll take me a while to evaluate the high-level gameplay. Most of the cipher's staple powers are low-level anyway -- eyestrike, mental binding, soul shock, whisper of treason -- so still are fairly cheap; ciphers have already been mostly about the low-level powers. And you can still get fairly big chunks of focus from Leadspitter hits. So the real difference is just that now you can't open with your biggest spell like a Wizard can. You have to choose between either opening with a low-level power, or opening with a physical attack and then working up the focus for a higher-level power.

Ok, Great, this is *exactly* why I was asking -- I was planning to rush Act III for some specific gear, then run all the Act II sidequests and White March, then come back. Thanks!