Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

Two different games can both be good

The first ten levels or so (up through Neketaka and Hasongo) is pretty well balanced now on PotD -- difficult and I find I need to use consumables consistently and intelligently to progress. What I suspect is happening is that the 'upscaling" maxes out at about a six-level shift, so once you get very high level (14+) you start out-scaling a lot of the game content, even after "upscaling." So the problem isn't so much any particular fight -- each map in the game has been adjusted fpr PotD, as per patch notes -- as it is players out-levelling the content. A lot of side quest stuff is set to be relatively low-level (because they don't know when you'll tackle it) and it can't fully upscale due to the cap, so once you're past level 12 or so stuff starts getting easier because you're outlevelling content.

That screenshot looks like it was taken in the lighthouse in hasongo (I think that's how you spell it) Right yeah I should have clarified -- I generated that item with the console to take the screenshot (while standing in the Hasongo lighthouse)

CAn anyone tell me where the Pathfinder's Boots are? Not on the cobbler! https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/954084010613368631/31DA4BCAE61E3522951320481D6592363B428506/

I've run probably four or five games up through Hasongo at this point and I'm having repeated issues, across multiple playthroughs, with the "gift from the machine" (and, sometimes, the "effigy" bonuses) not correctly importing, even when I carefully selected the appropriate background in the in-game Deadfire history creator. I have had one or two where it's worked correctly, so I know it's supposed to import, but. . it just ain't happening right. Here are two separate save games of two playthroughs that got stopped dead in their tracks by this bug; saves are immediately before triggering the lighthouse conversation in Hasongo where the "gift from the machine" bonus is supposed to carry over; in neither case does it, not even in the current patch. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j71cIwdBqucJ8q0kP98FncCFFN5p5Vnh/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1A2Cl_rYVjkzBdLaH9ZFkqcnznBLrx0xC/view?usp=sharing I'd really appreciate a fix for this because there's no way to tell before reaching Hasongo if this is working correctly or not, and I'm getting really sick of putting in 20+ hours into a playthrough and then having it derailed by this bug; it's happened more than once.

All the figurines I've seen have 8 charges. Some of them summon 3 creatures, may be the confusion.

pro-tip: you can stack the effect by killing destructibles

I've played about 10 levels' worth of content on the beta-branch version of this patch now, PotD, Cipher. Overall feedback: At least up through Hasongo the PotD changes feel great, challening difficulty and I have to use consumables intelligently to succeed. On the whole I really like the changes to Cipher. The class still needs work, but if before it was just a pile of loose rock, now it's starting to look like a Rodin sculpture -- not quite finished yet but you can see where it's going. Still needs finishing and polishing, but there's a class there. Suggestions: Haunting Chains [tier 9] is single single-target-only and thus objectively worse than Wizard's Ryngrim's Enervating Terror [[Tier 5] Defensive Mindweb still breaks on any damage taken, i.e., including grazes, rendering it useless on higher difficulties (unless you are munchkin-building your whole party to an absurd degree) Wild Leech is still tier 1 / tier 1 and thus not worthwhile ; it needs to be tier 3 / tier 3 Body Attunement [Tier 4] is still single-target and thus objectively worse than Hel-Hyraf's [Tier 1] or Expose Vulnerabilities [Tier 3] (And no, the "spirit shield, but weaker" self buff does not balance this out; I'd suggest bumping the effect to -3/+3) Cipher high-level power roster is still fairly short and could use a fourth active power option at tiers 7,8, and 9 (some lower-tier abilities like Antipathetic Field could also use later-tier "upgrades" similar to the Chanter invocation upgrades). Cipher abilities still lack appropriate keywording (i.e., "Acid" on antipathetic field; "fire" on Soul Ignition); alternatively, where are the items with bonuses to "Shred" etc? Mental Binding is much improved but could still use a couple more seconds on the paralyze effect. Also, importantly, unless it is fixed in the current new final patch version, as of the beta branch at least the Gift of the Machine trait still does not import correctly at least some of the time in "created" backgrounds. I am getting really sick of playing through to Hasongo only to run into this bug and wish it would get finally ironed out.

Yeah, this isn't importing correctly again in manufactured saves -- I believe it was fixed previously but for some reason in the current patch at least it's not importing correctly again. Someone PM me when this gets fixed, it's gonna put my PotD replay on hold I think.

It goes away on exiting the game.

Curious about this as well. It doesn't seem to but I haven't 100% verified.

Good thread. I had tried to put a similar list together a while back in this thread: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/101096-how-many-quests-can-be-resolved-without-combat/ but looks like your analysis is much more comprehensive. The one thing that might be worth adding are the various expensive weapons and gear items you can steal early on via effective use of sparkcrackers etc (scordeo's trophy, devil of caroc breastplate, red hand arquebus, etc.)

Yeah, thirding this, I am extremely confused and I do not believe I am the only one.

That's how I play with them already anyway. The real change will be that now I'll fret a lot about "wasting" charges etc. It's similar to the way some people hoarded per-rest resources in the first game. It's a psychological thing. I don't use figurines that often but when I do use them I don't want to fret about maybe needing them worse later in the game.

I would have preferred that figurines be per-rest and that the summons scale with summoner's power level instead of popping into existence at high level automatically. Charges seems like an over-nerf unless there is a way to replenish charges. I hate charged items in games like this because using even a single charge feels like "breaking" the item.

I'd have preferred to see figurines just per rest rather than per-rest AND charged. I hate using charged items of any kind in games like this, it makes me feel like the item is "damaged" as there is no way to replenish charges.

A lot of those cipher changes are positives BUT Haunting Chains [tier 9] is single single-target-only and thus objectively worse than Wizard's Ryngrim's Enervating Terror [[Tier 5] Defensive Mindweb still breaks on any damage taken, i.e., including grazes, rendering it useless on higher difficulties (unless you are munchkin-building your whole party to an absurd degree) Wild Leech is still tier 1 / tier 1 and thus not worthwhile ; it needs to be tier 3 / tier 3 Body Attunement [Tier 4] is still single-target and thus objectively worse than Hel-Hyraf's [Tier 1] or Expose Vulnerabilities [Tier 3] (And no, the "spirit shield, but weaker" self buff does not balance this out; I'd suggest bumping the effect to -3/+3) Cipher high-level power roster is still dramatically shorter than any other casting class Cipher abilities still lack appropriate keywording (i.e., "Acid" on antipathetic field; "fire" on Soul Ignition); alternatively, where are the items with bonuses to "Shred" etc?

Heyyyy, I could swear I've seen some of those around before... Unfortunately "Frank Exchange of Views" doesnt fit

I use every blessing except the stat and skill ones. REAsoning being, everything else alters speed of play (i.e., you can get to X thingy faster with faster ship gear and more cash) but doesn't alter difficulty directly in the same way.

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But I want to reiterate that this isn’t a problem with focus itself, rather that the abilities you can use with focus tend to be boring and are mostly weak. You brought up spirit armor. If ciphers had a spell like spirit armor, it would essentially be a passive for them, since past early levels the cost would be trivial and they could keep it up all the time. A wizard that casts spirit armor is making a choice and a cipher wouldn’t be. Wizards can cast this spell and only have one use thrust of tattered veils, slicken or chill fog left. Then they could cast fleet feet or Eldritch Aim as well and give up all their offensive and utility powers at that level. And then they could be hit with arcane dampener and have to burn an empower to get just one more cast of a level one spell. If ciphers had spirit armor as a level one spell, they could simply recast it immediately if it were dispelled and the cost of using it would effectively never interfere with using any of their other powers at any level. That’s why obsidian has to be very careful designing cipher powers, because if a lot of other class abilities were just transplanted directly into the cipher class, the ability to cast them with focus would make them overwhelmingly powerful. I strongly disagree with the notion that focus is a weak mechanic in Deadfire. Ciphers don’t need a redesign of their resource system. They need more impactful ability choices and more instant cast or zero recovery spells to make up for the fact that weapon attacks are essentially their “recovery”. If the spell list were better, everyone would be saying ciphers are overpowered because of their resource mechanics. I don't want to get into too much of a dead-horse-beating contest on this because you've stated your position well and it has some validity, but I think you're overstating it slightly. A cipher is limited by a resource: time. Cipher casts aren't "free": they're paid for in time spent autoattacking (or, at best, using item-based per-encounters) and any given combat only has so much time in it. For everything below PotD at least, time is the real limiting factor; the wizard's or priests' or druid's spellbook limitations are purely theoretical because the combats don't last long enough for them to actually run out of spells, while conversely the fights also aren't long enough for Ciphers to actually cast all that many powers. One reason I keep harping on Wizards is that wizards' self-buffs are mostly instant cast, whereas for a similar buff a cipher is paying a double time cost: once for the autoattack that got the focus, and then again for the actual buff cast. The net result is that a wizard can auto-script a few buff spells like Fleet Feet or Eldritch Aim at the start of the fight and still be dropping bombs on the enemy faster than the Cipher can, because the cipher has to garner focus first. Like, in my whole run on Veteran, it was *very* rare for Aloth or Maia to even need to use an empower for more spells, and the only fight I remember actually completely running out of per-encounter casts to the point that focus gain became an advantage was when trying to tackle Nemnok while drastically under-levelled; even there, Pallegina as a Herald was far more directly useful because her Chanter heals and summons and resurrect kept the whole party going in a way that Pain Block and charms by themselves coudn't (Cipher's lack of self-heal and charm's ability to miss against higher-level targets really hurt in that regard). This *might* change a bit on PotD I'll admit given the recent patch changes. I'd have to do a dedicated playthrough though and I don't really want to given the various cipher issues EDIT: I will agree with you insofar as your statement that " Ciphers don’t need a redesign of their resource system." That's at least mostly true. I think a generalized reduction in Cipher cast and recovery times could address this problem without changing the focus mechanic, especially if there was some effort made to "graduate" the casting time scale, so higher level cipher powers took longer but low level powers remained relatively "spammable." Alternatively, significant increases in the effectiveness of Cipher powers could also solve the issue (making them "worth the wait," as it were). It's all a matter of relative scaling.

There was a lot of good discussion of specific cipher power changes in this prior thread: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/101756-cipher-class-general-feedback-discussion/page-3 Really though they need a lot of new powers, the root issue is just that the power roster needs to be expanded by about a third. You could make up a big chunk of that by giving Ciphers "upgrades" of some lower level powers, like Chanters get. This is one reason the issue is hard to fix with just a mod -- the class needs a comprehensive rebuild, not just tweaks.

Ok, yeah, I can see how a crit-build with the beams and Complete Self talent could be fairly effective. (When you said "powers" I thought you meant actives.) If you did that pre-patch, the effectiveness of Time Parasite got halved, so that's a thing (honestly, there should probably be some sort of upper limit on how much the TP effect can stack). The two main issues with time parasite builds are that 1) in each fight you have to get the focus built up to cast Time Parasite a few times first, so you can't open strong, and 2) by the time you get Time Parasite the game is mostly over -- you've played 80% - 90% of the content. I don't really like to rely on any build that isn't "feature complete" by level 8 or so, 10 at most. Levels 16+ you're basically on your endgame victory lap by that point. Re: Echo -- yes, echo is actually a decently strong power, probably one of the better ones in the Cipher's roster. I make the comparison more to show the disparity in itemization and versatility and power selection between the classes than anything else. Having to get a power like Ninagauth's Death Ray from a loot grimoire isn't a hindrance, it's a freebie, the net result is that Wizards get one of the Cipher's best party tricks, for free, with no sacrifice, while Ciphers have to surrender a power slot for it.

Is this something you've done yourself or just theoretical? Because it really doesn't match up with my experience playing a high level Ascendant at all -- like, if you have a build that can do that, I want to know about it. The only real high level "focus generation power" is Reaping Knives and it's pretty marginal unless you're a fast-casting Ascendant with a monk or other dual-weilder in the party; the problem with it is you have to spend a lot of focus in the first place to cast it, so in most situations you're better off just casting the thing you want to cast rather than casting RK first then waiting for your monk to do his thing. It *can* be useful in some situations though if you build your party for it (I used it a lot with Zahua in the first game) That's still an instance of the focus mechanic acting as a disadvantage, it's just a disadvantage you can work around with a lot of planning and setup. But the whole time you're setting up that combo, the vancian casters in the party are just droppin' spells boom-boom-boom. I will grant that there is a slight advantage in that Ciphers can chain-cast their good powers; there have been fights where I've cast four or five Amplified Waves in a row, or given the whole party Robust inspiration via chaincasting Pain Block. I'd argue that the reason Ciphers so often do that though is because of the very short power roster. If there were more effective powers in the roster, Ciphers wouldn't *want* to just chaincast Pain Block or Amp Wave -- there would be something else they wanted to cast instead. I had Pallegina spec'd as a Herald in my Deadfire run and while she theoretically could repeat-cast the same powers over and over again, I very rarely wanted to, because there was usually a better alternative available.

It's even worse than that. Defensive Mindweb now breaks on *any damage*, i.e., including grazes, so on PotD it's basically a soap bubble -- one Chill Fog will wipe it from your entire party in a couple ticks, every time, gone before you finish the recovery animation. It's in the same practically useless category as Ancestor's Honor and Wild Leech now.