Plano Skywalker

not sure how this fits into the current discussion but, back in my PNP days, a "party member" is someone who got a cut of the treasure at the end of the adventure. a "hireling" received a wage, regardless of the actual treasure. and that is also how I think party-based cRPGs should do it...the PC (who is also the party leader) has a button that says "Divide Party Treasure"....everyone who is an actual member of the party gets their cut and some might actually leave and never be heard from again. hence, one reason to have hirelings is that it is an interim solution given that some of your party members are off spending their cut and may not return. anyway, I'm all about there being different designations for followers, especially in dialogue-heavy games...the ones with the big dialogues are full-blown party members and will always come back.....the ones who may not come back can also be fired at any time as they are non-essential to story progression. anyway, that is what I would prefer to see....I like the trend in having essential party members but I don't want them all to be essential. there should be a finite number of hireling slots (independent of party-member slots) and these slots would also be used for mounts and pack animals.

in addition to making the mechanics more "realistic" and introducing more opportunity costs, I think it would be great to have an "archrival" who is constantly trying to waylay you. now, here is the thing: KOTOR had the 3 Sith adepts (2 different groups, I think) plus an encounter with Malak's apprentice plus Calo Nord chasing you. but I'm talking about something different.....maybe you have a rival from way back in the PC's backstory....a rival Youngling who never did get a chance to finish his formal training (and, rightly or wrongly, blames you for that) and is not working for Jedi or Sith but is kinda freelancing it....and he doesn't always come at you with a full-on assault....he plays pranks...damages your ship when you are in port...maybe attacks a Republic ship while using your transponder codes, etc. He is trying to wreck your life in any way imaginable....towards the end of the game, he may end up working for whatever faction is on the other side, not because he is a true believer--just so he can get at you easier. basically, a Calo Nord subplot on steroids.

you are pointing out the fact that the Dark Side path in these games is really just the path of a disgruntled ANTI HERO as opposed to an actual power-hungry villain. I agree that these games could use a proper Dark Side path....but that effectively makes it 2 games instead of one. still, it is worth pointing out that the DS path is little more than a joke so far. hopefully, they will address this in some fashion or other.

dismemberment (caused by lightsaber) is not possible with Big Bad lightsaber duels for reasons already mentioned unless it is a scripted (i.e. cut scene) type event....maybe you walk in on a duel already in progress and somebody gets hit in that fashion. still, I think a hit from a lightsaber in a Big Bad lightsaber duel should either kill the person or leave the person totally at the mercy of the other party (randomly determined). essentially, we need the game to have 2 different types of combat mechanics: * normal (your party against opposing troops). * boss battles (mano e mano lightsaber duels). boss battles need to have clear lines of demarkation as to when to buff up, when to Force spam, and when true "melee" occurs. if you are a consular, you might use feats that are purely defensive until you can break out of melee range and Force spam again....but it needs to make sense....and the Big Bad should be using an adaptive AI, not just cheat healing and the like. while I agree that dismemberment is not a realistic thing to have in the game, I do think it would be interesting to have it so where everytime you get hit with a lightsaber blow (again, any such hit would be incapacitating) in a boss battle, that leaves you with an appearance-altering scar that characters actually comment on as the game progresses. cortosis armor? fine, it will take the first hit and then start to break off......etc....it also slows you down.

well, I agree that there should be a clear line of demarkation (at least as far as the system goes) as to when "melee" occurs in a Big Baddie lightsaber duel. You should NOT be able to Force Spam (Force Storm and that sort of thing) or Heal yourself if you are standing 3 feet away from a Big Bad. (I also think Big Bad lightsaber duels should be so where using the right defense is very important and to have actual parry feats because, yes, in this kind of duel, a lightsaber blow kills or seriously incapacitates [for story reasons they might have it so where you are captured if you are incapacitated from a Bid Bad lightsaber duel]. Also, they might have it so where, if you incapacitate a Big Bad, the Light Side thing to do would be to restrain the person and take him to Coruscant for trial...the DS thing would be, obviously, to kill the person.) however, I don't see it the same way when you are with your party encountering overwhelming numbers of mediocre troops and/or Force-wielders...force-spamming is an acceptable thing to do in those situations. But, to provide a bit of gameplay balance, maybe there should be a "Stamina Bar" in addition to Vitality and Force. If you are low on Stamina (i.e. too tired), then that could affect the saving throw of the target, even if you had plenty of force points. I think adding Stamina and the need to rest would be an important game-balancing mechanic.

I prefer the first one for a variety of reasons. The main reason being the fellowship is together. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I actually like the first one the best myself....partly because it is all about establishing the world....and a very mysterious world it is at that point. still haven't seen the extendeds for any of them though.

well, it's all about choices....choices create the illusion of a vast, open world. I find it odd that we are still seeing cRPGs in which you can build a castle but can't even buy a horse or carriage or even a pack mule. I agree that those things are somewhat off-topic to whether a story is non-linear or not. But that is my point: create enough choices along the yellow brick road and people can help suspend belief that it is a yellow brick road.

I agree that there is a difference between "non-linear" and "open-ended". Open-ended games are generally sandbox-type games, such as Morrowind where you can log over 80 hours and not even work on the main quest. As to "non-linear", I don't think it really exists in a story-based game but some games, because of their mechanic, can create the illusion of non-linear easier than others. Both KOTORs had a "middle game" in which you had to find clues on different planets. Because the PC had control over which order this was done, it made it feel like it was non-linear but it was really just an illusionary non-linearity. And that is the best we can hope for in a game of the quality of a BG or a KOTOR....creating the illusion of a vast, open world with lots of choices but it still comes down to Intro>>Middle Game>>End Game. But, indeed, having some say in the order in which we perform the middle game tasks, along with having releasable party members and joinable factions, rideable mounts and upgradeable vehicles, side quests that you just happen to stumble upon along the way (it was buried so good you didn't even know it was there the first 2 playthroughs)....all of these things help create the illusion of non-linearity and that is a very good thing.

I tend to agree with you, Rosbjerg...the religious stuff is the best stuff they do. If they keep the writing that strong, I don't think they have anything to worry about. Before I saw Eye of Jupiter, my favorite episodes were the ones when they were down on Kobol looking for the Tomb of Athena (and the whole bit about a "dying leader" who sees visions of snakes, etc). That was, simply put, stuff you just don't see on television (anywhere, really). It's interesting to note that the main subplot in classic BSG before it got cancelled was the whole bit of coming into contact with bits of the 13th Tribe on a planet simply known as Terra (though this was not Earth) and how the Galactica used its weapons to prevent a nuclear holocost between the free peoples and the Eastern Alliance. I don't know what Larson really had in mind if they found at least some settlements of the 13th Tribe in the first season...seems like it would have been hard to keep milking it. But, anyway, I'm thinking the writers will establish some contact between Galactica and at least the outer reaches of the 13th Tribe either in the 2nd half of this season or in the next season. Having 2 groups of humans to deal with might provide enough intrigue to keep it going (i.e. without bring in aliens or weird phenomenon of the week type stuff). And I definitely want to see what actually goes on at the very top levels of Cylon society...in classic BSG, there was actually a planet Cylon. I suspect there is supposed to be an actual home world in RBSG that serves as their capital....wouldn't mind seeing that revealed...maybe some Cylon infighting on the home world.

I pretty much agree with that. The idea, as I see it, is an organic, believable and dynamic economy between the party members. I like the idea that, if you don't take the romance lines, there is always a chance that some other party member will. For instance, if your Exile latches on to Handmaiden, then Atton might start talking more with Visas. Atton will not move in on your girlfriend (he doesn't want to get kicked off the ship) but he might flirt with someone that you haven't shown interest in. I know that all amounts to a lot more design work and all but that is the Holy Grail as I see it.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with the over-the-shoulder perspective of KOTOR which is really just a combination of 1st person and 3rd person perspectives. The biggest problem with KOTOR's combat, IMO, was just very poor AI and pathfinding when it comes to your followers.

actually, Beast Trick would have been fine if it had its own tree (i.e. the 2nd or 3rd level effect would have it so where the animal actually fights along your side for a period of time) but with it only having a 1st level effect that was just a variation of Stun, yeah, powers like that aren't needed...again, not unless they have their own tree progression.

I absolutely agree with you on balancing Force Powers. There really isn't much of a reason to play a Consular in the current structure. Also, there should a much steeper crossover penalty for LS/DS powers. For instance, DSers should not really be able to use Heal effects and LSers should not be using Drain Life-type effects. If you must crossover, then it should really cost you (though it would not involve an alignment shift). Manipulating the environment (i.e. a Force Throw tree) is a SW staple and should be included as a Universal Power in the next game, I think. And, frankly, there is just too much "clutter" when it comes to the Force powers. I think the power trees should fork as you move into the 2nd and 3rd level effects...needs to be more opportunity cost.

ah, well I missed a number of Season 3 shows as I did not have the Sci-Fi channel at the time. Now, I have that channel and a DVR. DVR is sweetness.

well, if you think about it, it is kind of odd that they allowed K2 to be published with such an enigmatic and ellusive view of right and wrong. or, perhaps, they aren't as particular as we might think.

I agree that it will always come down to helping the Jedi or helping the Sith and that those will always be the predominant factions. But the Ancient setting is the perfect time for factions....for instance, we still don't know if there is a difference between the Revan/Malak Sith and the True Sith. It would appear that there is but that has yet to be revealed. The Ancient setting is always in a state of flux and is the perfect time for splinter groups (as long as it always maintains Jedi and Sith as the main factions). EDIT: Neutral factions would be the most problematic canon-wise but as long as they are given steep handicaps (such as no prestige classes), I think it could work. Make it too accessible and you loose the epic Star Wars feel.

the Sith are effectively Chaotic Evil while the Jedi are effectively Lawful Good. what might be interesting would be to see joinable factions in the future games. It would still have the Jedi/Sith axis but with a Lawful Evil splinter group for Sith and a more Chaotic splinter group for Jedi. Plus a tree-hugging Neutral faction for good measure. that would make for a much more fleshed out world...Jedi putting out Jedi brush fires and Sith putting out Sith brush fires, at least early on in the game.

that last episode was indeed a good one....my fav so far.

I also think that romance options for a very essential (storywise) NPC can be more trouble than it is worth because you might start thinking (whether true or not) that you have to pursue the romance to advance the main story. I'm all about keeping it simple: * don't link Influence with alignment (party management is the best way to deal with incompatible alignments). * don't link romance with the "main story" or even create a whiff that this might be the case. * yes, and no overt "sex conquest"....if there is some of that, I think it would be best if the NPC is the one who is the aggressive party and that fending the person off will get you kudos by the rest of the bunch...if you give in, everybody ribs you about it for the rest of the game.....if I want overt pandering, I will find a Japanese dating sim.

I can see the wisdom behind limiting the power of ranged weapons in KOTOR, in general. However, there has to be a context in which they are worthwhile. I think the answer lies in having prestige classes for NPC followers. Take, for instance, Canderous/Mandalore. He is a Soldier-classed individual. I think, at some point, you should be given the option to give him a prestige class such as (doesn't really matter what PNP KOTOR says IMO): * Heavy Weapons Specialist * Sniper * Demolitions Expert * Skirmish Expert (skirmishing is using ranged weapons in close combat) <etc> I want to see missle launchers in KOTOR, but I only want the Heavy Weapons Specialist to be able to use them. I want sniper rifles (that act like sniper rifles) but I only want them to be effective in the hands of a Sniper. Ranged weapons should be marginalized in general in a game that focuses on lightsaber combat but there should be contexts in which they can shine.

this is also getting mighty close to a K3 topic but, yes, I see the point. in the game Pirates!, you get to choose between Rapier, Longsword, and Cutlass as your fencing weapon. I wouldn't mind seeing it so where there are 3 basic types of saber chassis, each one corresponding to a certain style: quick, balanced, or power. And each type could be colorized in any number of ways. Also, a choice of force-draw animations would not go amiss.

yes, but there are the Lost Jedi that K2 alluded to and folks like Jolee still out there. there could be some sort of rag-tag academy teaching the new batch of force sensitives (the PC was a Youngling on vacation when the purge happened, etc). anyway, I'd be happy to continue this in the K3 thread.

well, you can "handicap" yourself by not using a lightsaber. I'm just saying that the devs will probably not stop using the lightsaber as an important story hook. now, it would be nice to have the kind of lightsaber that they used in Epi III -- you know, cutting through the roof of an elevator! but if they give us that, they have to make us pay (big time) to get good at it.

oh, yes, and that was pure gold.