Zero

I guess that leaves the question of what ending Deus Ex 3 will use, that is if Eidos is still making it.

I believe he is. The comment about the Mona Lisa, the bit about having a pretentious arguement. Taking the time to pick apart everything I say. I'd say yeah he is. He meant I was a intellectual poser who knew nothing of the subject matter. Maybe thats true. But thats what he meant. Elsewise he would have said "You shouldn't judge it before it comes out." . Imo, ME has shot itself in the foot if it wants to be considered art in this modern society. Its not undermining its subject matter (ala Commodity critics). It has a writer who does Star Wars pulp books. There is a lot there for people to dismiss it. I haven't played Bioshock. But I can say it has a lot going for it. They didn't try to brand their character as if he were special (as Bioware has) which would open him up to criticism/scrutiny. And they are addressing an intellectual movement considered relevant to the outside world. Also they factor in the fact its a game and use emergent gameplay as part of the overall package (little sisters and how the player deals with them). As opposed to ,seemingly, evoking another mediums cinematic quality- which the Bioware guys seem to focus a lot on in their interviews. I'd agree with A. But B , I'm not really sure about. The Bioware guys stated they think Mass Effect will solve the arguement whether games are art or not once and for all. Maybe I have a little grudge because that comment struck me as pompous. Especially when you go to their boards and you see how their marketing strategy is alienating female gamers and a lot of people who don't want to play as their character. Perhaps its clouded my vision... and maybe I don't even know what I'm talking about in that regard and maybe the Bioshock guys said the same thing.. I don't know for sure.. I accept I might be a complete intellectual inferior who just isn't a good judge of reality. I have theories on the questions you asked about violence and about cultural vantage points; but I don't think there of much value.

Why should I mention Ico? You actually were using Ico against your own argument. Not quite... Ico didn't have anything clear to say. I know that you play as John Shepard the first human spectre. There is a race called the asari, blue women, who reproduce asexually. Greg and Casey have used 24's Jack Bauer as a model for their protagonist. The main plot revolves around spectre agent gone rogue called Saren. He is a ruthless turian who has been transformed in the prequel by a ship, which now allows him to control a robot race created known as the geth created by the Quarians- humanoids who have wider hips ,longer necks, and only 3 fingers. You can play as one of 6 classes, and potentially upgrade to one of 6 other classes if ,according to Chris Priestly, you are able to find them. Saren also despises the human race, because his brother was killed in the Turian-Human war that occured prior to the game. There is a very in-depth facial construction system as recently displayed in a 1up video. If you want more information feel free to ask. I haven't seen the end product, but I wouldn't say I know nothing. I've been following it and look forward to playing it. I would argue most movies aren't art, first. Second I think you're right, but can't movie studios stand to take more risks and invest a few million in more off-beat productions, whereas game companies don't have that huge bank account to fall back on? By game companies I mean the ones actually making the games (not nintendo, sony, or microsoft; as the behemoths they are) This is an honest question. I might be wrong on this. *sigh* It sounded that way. This is the problem with message boards , you don't get a good feel for intention. I was trying to clarify why it was considered art by the institutions. Because that guy who posted the pong picture seemed like he didn't know why. My argument is more complex than that. And I don't think games are incapable of being art. When I used the term games, I meant games that have been made thus far. For the record I don't put fine arts on a pedestal. In my opinion, I'd actually argue being a game developer is a higher pursuit. If there is no god or meaning in this world. Than I would say aspiring to bring enjoyment or fun to players is a much higher pursuit than expressing a message that ultimately means nothing and will fade with time. When I explained that painting, I wasn't attempting to give a value judgement. I was just trying to help inform why the instituitions think its art. That was all.

Thank you thepixiesrock, I really appreciate your support Quick question for you Tigranes, do you really want my opinion on the matter? I have one going through my head but not yet fully articulated. I'm not an expert in this area, but I do have some answers.... But if you don't really want an answer or response, and were just making a point. I won't because I don't want to be semi-attacked again for something I didn't mean any harm in posting in the first place.

I didn't care for it when I saw it in person, a lot of people don't. The aristocracy determined a great deal of what is art, and their legacy lasted because they had power. Convenient you forget that I mention ICO. Is Mass Effect a pure shooter? No.. But games are dominated by violence. Thats the whole point. Movies and other mediums allow for other messages to seep in. Games mostly require a certain technology that costs money, that motivates them to cater only towards a certain standard. With some deviation on occasion. Usually seen aesthetically. There are tons of bad movies out there motivated equally by greed; entertaining ones too. But the technology itself doesn't make it impossible for more "experimental" works to be produced. Games its much harder to do. That is if you want the immersion big budgets allow. Low-Budget movie, you wont get special effects, but you get the world around you and actors( you don't need modellers and artists to do that). Did I say that? No. I said it was because Malevich placed it where the cross was placed. Did I ever say it wasn't about the event? I seemed to be pointing it out. wtf did I say that warranted insulting?

Unless I'm wrong I'm pretty sure the main reason The Black Square was considered art was because Malevich placed in room (I forget the specifics) in the top right corner, where typically the cross was placed (in Russia at the time, I believe). And his statement was that it(the Black Square) was of much worth worshipping as the Cross was. Which I think is part of where games fail; they ultimately don't have much to say. I don't believe many developers really try. Look at Gears of War and Mass Effect( from the impression I get) or any major game; most of them are trying to be the BEST or coolest.. but are the creators really emotionally involved with the message of game? Imo, ICO is probably the closest in terms of being art... and mainly in sorta surrealist fashion(not quite the right description, though). Shadow of Colossus expanding on the plot and adding to the combat took away from the surrealism that allows ICO to be argued for.

I didn't play through Deus Ex, so I couldn't compare I'll say what I thought about the endings.. Their length is one reason ( http://www.youtube.com/results?search_quer...p;search=Search ) they range from a minute and 7 secconds to a minute and 31 seconds. So they aren't that long. Another reason is they don't follow up on any of the allies you had (if any). Say Leo. And they all have creepy undercurrents- I won't spoil it. But in one way or another humanity is basically screwed, or is that the basic feeling Deus Ex goes for? That whatever you do, whoever you side with, you're screwed? (in one way or another) The Apostlecorp ending could be optimistic , I guess. Illuminati maybe also... depends on your views. Edit: I'm guessing the fact that they couldn't render the endings in-engine(as they can now a days) limited their length(budget and all). And also the fact that you could basically kill anyone you wanted at almost any time, probably kept them from following up on relationships.

I just played Invisible War...long time coming- yeah. But I got it for $3.99 which is quite a deal- used but everything worked and it had the manual. Anyway I was wondering for those who have played it and I'm guessing paid attention to its development. Was there a lot of internal strife that caused the game to not be quite up to standards? I read a glib about it on Wikipedia but it didn't have any links or any actual information (really)- just vague wording. I enjoyed the game, especially since I didn't play through the entire original Deus Ex (I was too young to fully appreciate it at the time). So I didn't have high expectations. It was fun, and the setting was interesting. Although all the characters were pretty 2 dimensional, I found a few interesting moments (its funny that I think the most honest interactions in the game were with Holograms). Anyway was wondering if anyone can fill me in on the details of any problems the development had? I'm curious because the endings seem either rushed or like an insult - all have a creepy undercurrent. Not to mentions parts of the game didn't seem like they reached their potential (npc interaction, especially amongst the Tarsus alumni).

Recently (past month or so) Hot Fuzz: really, really good, in my opinion. Probably one of my overall favorite comedies (even if its is a bit premature to say that) The Host: Which I thought was good and well paced for the most part; the characters aren't necessairly the most developed but you learn to care about them through the actor (who are all very appealing). I found the ending though, The parts that work best are the mostly early that have a very distinct dark humor element to them. Pans Labrynth: I'm sure a lot has been said about this. Simple story which is fitting since it comes from a child's vantage point. Amazing music, photographed well, and the acting is amazing. And the movie is very well paced- I think Del Toro has really grown as a film maker , after seeing Hellboy and the Devils Backbone - both movies had their strength. But PL really shows how far he has progessed . The movie also has more heart (hate using that term) than his previous outings, perhaps due to the performance of the young female lead. Casino Royale: Finally saw this, they get the setting right. And Craig does a great job as bond- I didn't dislike him as I disliked other Bonds. But the movie just drags and drags- ultimately I was disappointed. And the opening scene in Africa was a tad ridiculous. Performances are good though. I'll also add , I'm another person who thought Bringing out the Dead was a great movie- it really captures certain elements (I'm not sure how to describe) , but that kinda just have a value in and out of themselves as an experience.

I think its doomed and its a really sh*tty arguement why; their website ( http://www.interplay.com/ ). Just look at it... can a gaming company with such a horrid website possibly make a good game? I think not.

Not sure if any of these have been posted but here we go: Bruce Campbell on Ash Vs. Jason Vs. Freddy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11o6MCB0bx8 Deliverance skit from Kids in the Hall: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cOZk0gXLQc Yugi-oh: the Abriged Series Episode 1 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eqNi9Y4Vrw

I must have odd tastes- my favorite companions were Bishop and Qara. Sure Qara was spoiled but she was also very non-preachy and went with the flow (which I can appreciate). And I agreed with most of what Bishop said and he had a cool voice/look. Though I found Khelgar the most likeable, followed by Neeshka. (they aren't my favorites though). Sand and Grobnir had their moments also. Was pretty much neutral on the rest of the cast.

Currently playing a pretty old game- Batman :Rise of Sin Tzu. Kind of a simple beat em up, but its not bad for a Batman fan. Also Resistance: Fall of Man, since I recently got a PS3; its pretty fun, and its great for what it is . But so far Gears of War is better

At the moment, I really enjoy the 360. It has its problems- mine is very loud. But it has a great selection of games and online play. I can understand the strengths of the other systems. But for me, keeping up with all the upgrading that a pc requires is too much of a pain, and the PS3 is nice and quiet but lacks any real quality games atm. The Wii is a lot of fun, but in a much different way than the other platforms.

I didn't even know it was out..... *goes to store* edit: oh wait it isn't...should have read the whole post.

......i love you

You make it all sound so depressing :'(

Another vote for Father Grigori.

Thinking about picking it up. Can anyone who has it tell me how it is so far? edit: ergh sorry thought it came out on tuesday.

I'm going to give it a rental; just because I heard its a pretty short game (10-15 hours), and I've already bought enough games this month....with Jade Empire and the like. Yeah I kind of doubt it will sell terribly well (I think it will do ok) because it hasn't gotten triple A reviews (from the major sites), isn't part of a platforming genre franchise (like Mario) , doesn't feature a ninja protagonist, and lacks glitzy violence to satiate the bloodthirsty youths of America

Yeah I think cover b also. Cover a wouldn't look bad if it was the dragon logo overlayed on some other (action maybe ) imagery, but I don't think the pure black background is flattering. edit: Actually (looking at your site) the black doesn't look that bad when coupled with the back of the book.

I don't think its half bad.

I'm not into the EU, but I know the game introduced them

Pokemon and Yugi-Oh are ok for fluff ; I find it relaxing when I know the creators main intention is only to sell the viewer products as oppposed to infusing any sort of deep message into their cartoons (which a surprising amount of people do, and a lot of times not sucessfully for me at least). I liked Samurai Jack a lot.. the graveyard episode and the techno one were great. I didn't care for the last few , it seemed like they strayed away being more action oriented to something else. It was as if the creators had a boner for the main character and were just telling you he was the greatest without even really showing you why (like they didn't go into elaborate fights , they just have jack win in one slash against a race's champion or immediately know where someone was hiding) . Seemed kinda lazy , the art got better though. I watched that Clone Wars cluster two days ago, I still don't get this whole signs of Anakin going to the dark side. I mean I understand what he is doing isn't necessairly evil; its just signs that he has anger. But it still seems convoluted, I mean *spoilers* . . . . These techno dudes turn a whole male population of a species and turn them into horrible mutants things. Who wouldn't kill those jack $##s? I sure would, I mean the poor women of that village have to have sex with those things , now ? Uggh... they goes deserved to die. Yeah but I know jedis arent suppose to have anger...ya ya I just think they could do a more subtle sly way of conveying his fall .

Egomaniacal drag-queen !