Cantousent

That's true. ...But It's not just Americans who call America America. ...And some of them call us Amerika. ...Or is it just Volourn? ...Because he also calls Canada Kanada.

...But there were a good number of folks claiming that we were ignorant before Bush took office. I'm sure the numbers have increased, but the perception that we were swaggering bafoons too full of ourselves already existed. So, was that because some of us swagger or because our policy is faulty. I liked your point about the two office workers, but at some point, the hostility goes beyond what we actually do and what folks want to perceive. It's kind of the same thing as the widespread perception in America that the French are rude. There's nothing I can do to change world impressions other than try to show a more reasonable side of my country. Most of my fellow Americans are decent, hard-working folks. ...At least the ones I know.

Well, good luck. Personally, I think anything to do with pixies is probably unethical on its face. By the way, everyone pay heed to Ms. Launch. The proper way to address me is "Mr. Eldar" or simply "Sir."

So your beef is with foreign policy, not rabid American patriotism. Because we didn't invade Iraq because we wanted to add a star to the flag. The president decided it was the best course of action. ...Or is it the "attitude" that you dislike. Invading Iraq was okay, but don't wave too many flags while we're about it? So the problem is perception of our policy based on flag waving. If we quietly invaded Iraq, things would be much better.

My point, other than you went out of your way to engage in the sort of activity you despise in others, is to ask why you care? So, some folks tout American exceptionalism. So what? The Dutch don't have as strong of a claim for their significance as does the United States. Like us or not, we're at the top right now. If some folks lack the tact to treat this fact with delicacy, then there's nothing to do but grin and bear it. There was a popular song in Britain at one time, "we've got the ships, we've got the men, and we've got the money too." Nations at the top generally have an understanding that they're at the top. You don't see my point? I think yours is irrelevant. It was a good point, but now it's just the same ol' point in a thread that has matured beyond the bashing level.

That was your first mistake, baley. By the way, who was it who asked what an unofficial warning was?

The survey sounds a bit lacking in specifics, isn't it?

How much time do you want to take spitting vitriol on rabid flag wavers? Self love is not so great a sin as self loathing. If folks want to think they're the best in the world, let 'em. Furthermore, some Americans think they're the best for no reason other than where they were born? Some of the most liberal citizens in our country hold to the same sort of rubbish. For instance, tom fools who refer to the space between New York and California as "fly-over country." Some Europeans think they're best because, after all, they're more cultured. :Eldar's shaking his head with a bemused smile icon: Some Chinese believe their best because they're civilization is "ancient." So, I see a natural progression from the very narrow topic of bashing flag wavers to a broader discussion of America and democracy.

I'll point at pixies and laugh in advance. :points at pixies: hahahaha

You've imported a lot of thoughts that haven't been represented in this thread, Commissar. ...And, the original post doesn't matter. For all we know, it was an attempt to troll. The vast majority of this thread is a well reasoned discussion of democratic principles. That's the heart of the thread. Furthermore, the original post was a quote of an exchange between us. Should we have included my original post in full with your response beneath, we would have ended up in a discussion of democracy in the first place.

The thread makes me shudder. Ah well, I'll try to delete individual posts rather than close the thread if it comes to that.

If anyone crashes the censor, I'm putting them on modersated status for the next two weeks. Then I'm laughing at them.

Could this somehow effect our Vampire game?

The original post was about flag waving. The erudite members of this forum have cut past the fluff and gotten to the real heart of the matter... democracy. I didn't join to defend my flag. I chose to join to defend what that flag represented. Yeah, if someone wanted to take my flag and burn it, they could expect my boot across their face. ...But that doesn't make me a rabid flag waver. EDIT: I think folks have a right to burn their own US flags. When I said "my flag" I mean a flag that I, personally, possess

Get back ta dirty little secret, yer scurvy bunch!

Nominally, this thread is all about America. In reality, however, I think it's about democracy. I think it's about trying to keep your friends even when you have a striking difference of opinion regarding a variety of issues. It's about trying to solve your problems with dialogue rather than violence. ...And, because it's about all of these things, it's about Iraq.

Can't fight this feeling -- REO Speedwagon

The Athenian democracy, and Perikles, get's a bum rap.

That's the problem, isn't it? Taking more control will cause an upswell of hatred. Losing more control will cause the Iraqis to lose nerve. It's not enough to mourn our own people. Iraq was a mess, is a mess, and will remain a mess for a long, long time. I will state now, and weather the unkind and hostile remarks I will undoubtedly get, that I'm glad Saddam Hussein is out of power in Iraq. I don't think we were too soon to take him out of power. I think we were 12 years to late. If there is a list of US failings, leaving Saddam in power at the end of the first gulf war must head the list.

Yes, I used to listen to Bach (pixies can give you all the specifics of every song if you'd like) while I played Ultima. Now, if I hear that music, I'm taken back to the time. My first girlfriend was a French foreign exchange student. She wore a certain perfume. Now, if I smell anything that even remotely resembles it, I'm taken back to my time with her. It's funny how the mind plays tricks on us.

The resistance in France was considerably greater than the Iraqi resistence. ...And the Germans treated resistance far more ruthlessly during world war two than the U.S. does now. The resistance in Germany was far more violent than the Iraqi resistance. Let's be honest here, whether we were right or wrong to invade Iraq, how many of you truly believe that most Iraqi's support the insurgency? The United States doesn't act like Saddam Hussein. The citizens could be doing so much more to hamper the coalition. I see the response in Iraq as more or less positive in terms of politics, even though the country remains a mess. The insurgency is a phenomenal failure in terms of creating a real effect in military terms. The United States can afford to lose the same number of servicemen every year, real deaths of real American citizens, and not even blink in terms of actual numbers of military in country. The problem isn't that the resistance will overpower the United States military. The true goal is to force the American public to balk at the loss of life and force a policy change. The resistance movement in countries during world war two wasn't meant to sway public opinion in Germany. It was meant to have an actual effect on the war effort.

wow. If we can keep the flames down, it will be quite alright. My hand is on my thread choppin' axe, though. This is the Obsidian board, not the street. Any hint of real ugliness and I'll tell you to take it outside.

I don't think folks are jealous of our freedom, but I would think that free people everywhere would value freedom. American isn't the source of freedom, merely the proud recipient of it. We've been a lucky folk in many ways, here in the United States. Perhaps some of the folks have been exhuberant in their love of freedom and deomcracy. That's undoubtedly irritating to folks from other countries, especially in countries where, as Lucius rightly notes, the citizens are equally free. Still, if the idea is that I should not have some pride for the great things my country has done, I'll politely disagree. Does that mean that I cannot recognize the mistakes we've made? Of course not. I have some sympathy for folks who've sent me PMs concerning errors the United Ststes has commited. I understand the anger some folks have for us. Nevertheless, if you believe that I should not have some pride for my country, I'll continue to disagree. I know that other countries have reason for pride. I'm an Anglophile. I believe in the greatness of the United Kingdom. I respect the rich history of France and other western European countries. I'm a classicist. I hold the ancient world in the utmost regard. Japan and China have a heritage that extends far into the past and true days of glory and grandeur. Even so, I'll not stop taking pride in those moments of greatness in my own country. I hope, no matter where you live, you can find similar instances for your nation. It doesn't take anything from you that I recognize that the idea and guiding principle undlying my nation is a noble endeavor. It is that ideal that I hold most dear, even when we, as a nation, fail. Reveilled has the right of it. That's the biggest reason I've never been much of a flag waver. The flag is a symbol of our country, but it is only a bit of cloth with some color added. The real heart of our nation isn't the flag. It's our belief in and fierce love of freedom. You know, Lucius, I hope you share that love. If I were an atheist, deomcracy would be my religion.

Wow, tough crowd. Please get back to discussing folks being under water.

Okay, I'll bite. I've always wondered about flag waving. I think I've waved a flag maybe once in my life at a fourth of July celebration. I'm an intensely patriotic fellow. I believe, with my whole heart, the exceptionalism of my country. ...But I've always thought the best ways to show your patriotism were to vote, accept your obligation of serving on a jury, paying your taxes, and, if necessary, serving in the military. Most folks who have flags draped on their cars or trucks or stuck out on poles in front of their houses fail to maintain them. As a result, the flags look bleached and start to tear. That's not a particularly good way to show your love of country or the flag. I don't see anything wrong with being up front about either our victories or mistakes. We are a great and petty people. Yes, I've seen the ugly Americans abroad and thought that they presented a malformed view of the U.S. ...But we've had a lot of friends in the world. We still do, even if the current administration is unpopular abroad. As far as the non-sense of being a suicide bomber, etc. NUTS! I don't think any rational person believes any such thing about you.