PK htiw klaw eriF

I was more referring to the "Well, I would prefer to do something else, so I'll just shut the game down and delete the save." I consider that unsatisfactory, although you seem to indicate that it allows a game like Planescape: Torment to then fit under your criteria. Why can't this work for every game? It can work for every game as long as when you delete said save, the game doesn't contradict anything. I don't think it is optimal at all, but if I come to an impasse where I am forced to do something that would break the PC it is an out.

Perhaps we should find Dr. Who bikinis.

****, this is harder than I thought. Can we just start posting pictures of attractive women?

It depends, if you have to beat everyone you come into contact with off with a stick to prevent them from having sex with you, I'd hardly call that realistic.

Because apparently having 2 moms or 2 dads is worse than being an orphan. Who was this fine gentleman or lady?

IMO, no. In games where you don't know exactly what the PC will say(because the dialogue option you select isn't what the PC actually says) I don't think it works at all. Any games that do let the player know exactly what the PC will say it does work. I do agree that a cRPG doesn't have as much wiggle room as PnP in regards to story or mechanics, because there is not a DM that can interpret a wide range of player actions. I do think that it is possible to provide a good story that works with a wide range of PCs though. I suppose that our differing viewpoints on how a RPG functions is what creates the different preferences. I don't think that romance is required in a RPG(or even needed to have a great RPG), but I think that if the player wants a PC who tries to have sex with everything they see, the player should be able to do that.

I either pick a line based on what the PC would mean by it(rather than what the developer meant by it) or headcanon that the PC did what they wanted and delete the save. I would stick her in the cargo hold and ignore her or headcanon that she left and delete the save.(I found KOTOR 2 very flawed in some regards, more detailed response below) In the respect that nothing is done to define the PC or remove control from the player, I think that TES games are excellent. However between the bad combat mechanics and little reactivity to your choices, TES falls flat. I also think that Torment had fantastically written characters, but I think it succeeds by accounting for a wide range of PCs and motivations. I think KOTOR2 is heavily flawed as a RPG, despite telling a fantastic story. I think Obsidian severely damaged the ability to roleplay the Exile as they saw fit by fleshing out the backstory as much as they did(KOTOR and PST got away with it because the PC was not aware of their past.) They also made you take along the vast majority of companions without any choice in the matter. Main Point: I think that a well-designed RPG should allow the player to create PCs with a multitude of personalities, motives, and goals by letting them decide their PC's story is. I think the way to do that is to create a story that the PC can play several different parts in and not TES, which seems to revolve around letting the player do what they want with little consequence. I don't think that anyone will ever be able to cover every motivation or goal(like seeking to become a god by pelting peasants with kittens or some other insanity), but I do think it is very possible to write a compelling story without forcing a motive or goal on the PC. Perhaps my view is different from some because my background is PnP, where using headcanon is essential because the PC doesn't really exist anywhere but the player's head.

I think Baldur's Gate managed to let the player tell their own story while still providing a decent story. The PC wasn't forced to care about Gorion's death, take a step into Friendly Arm Inn, etc. Perhaps a stronger story could have been told, if the protagonist was a pre-generated character rather than the player's creation, with every choice automatically made for them, but I doubt that BG would have been as enjoyable if they did go for less player control in favor of a better story. Also, I don't see how you can have an RPG without at least a little bit of headcanon, because everything the PC is exists only in your head. Perhaps that is why I have a different few of what make a RPG work than others.

Today I was off work so I decided to get pleasantly drunk.

No you're cool. That comment was not aimed at you. Nobody on this beard is seriously invoking Jesus to this discussion. But it is happening a lot in other forums and the press. My comment was just a general one. GD, that typo makes me think of people sitting on a giant beard.

You design the characters personality, decide what their intent is when you make choices, and end the story when you want. The story of the game is more than just the dialogue choices the PC makes, it also includes travelling, combat, haggling, etc. The problem I have with Gaider's view on narrative is that I don't believe "a reason to care"(which I took as motive) should be supplied by the writer or even assumed at all by the writer. I believe that in a good RPG, who the character is(motivations, emotions, temperament) should come from the player. From his comments in the video that those quotes come from, he doesn't seem to believe that allowing the player to decide who the PC "is" and what they intend with their actions is a valid way to play games. I much prefer Avellone's view, which I take as creating a foundation(mechanics, dialog choices, etc.) and letting the player go from there. TL;DR: The narrative should come from the player deciding who the PC is and implementing that character in the game, not the designer allowing certain narratives. I agree entirely. The only way to ensure the player has a reason to care is to let the player create the PC themselves(with no contradictions to whatever design they may have come up with by the writers) and decide what that characters story is. You may nope be able to tell an EPIC saga or a deeply personal story, but that task is better suited towards film or literature than RPGs. I think that this is the main problem of KOTOR. You aren't offered a choice on the critical matter on whether your character decides to train as a Jedi or not. It gets forced on you. RPGs shouldn't be like that.

I believe that is because TNO was created by the player. All of his motivations, emotions, outlooks came from the player. That is how a RPG should be IMO, give the player control over who their character is don't tell them. I disagree with you on both counts and I think that just shows how good of a job Obsidian did with those games. The issues are not black and white and don't have a universally good choice. They are divisive and require the player to think about them deeply, instead of picking between an obvious good or evil.

It's me again! I liked Highcliff and dealing with the lizard folk quite a bit. I hate Elanae's guts, because not only is she an Elf she is also pretty damn creepy to boot. Neverwinter is a bit boring and cliche, and while the City Guard and Thieves Guild choice could have been explored better IMO having more than two factions would have been a better way to go. What PE could take from NWN2 OC: 1. Have a more interesting early game. Nothing kills my desire to replay something more than the thought of having to slog through some pretty uninteresting situations. NWN2 OC(while not as bad as some like to complain) is pretty bland and not very fun to rub through. 2. If it is possible to have a PC join a faction, have the choice relatively early and do not make it a mandatory choice. 3. NPCs need to be diverse and well-built. Nothing is worse than not having access to a (insert role here) till later in the game. NWN2 would have been greatly improved by having access to a mage earlier. Also try to build the companions a bit better, Khelgar and Neeshka were actually done well, but Elanae's stats made me shake my head. I would suggest starting companions at a low level and letting the player level them as they choose. I agree with PrimeJunta that the influence mechanics need an overhaul. The problem I have with romances in games(and I don't even hate them) is that due to a binary influence system if you do not choose to have the PC romance(or be friends with them for that matter) a character, you lose out on a good bit of content and often useful special abilities. I would cut out the special abilities of the relationship and try to implement a relationship system that allows multiple types of relationships with an NPC, and have each relationship have a similar amount of exclusive content and flavor a similar amount of existing content. YMMV, but I think that having NPCs have different types of relationships with different NPCs should be a prime goal of a RPG that encourages players to create their own characters.

Which one would that be? In PST, you can decide what the story of TNO is. In KOTOR 2, you can decide what the story of The Exile is. In NWN2, you can decide what the story of the Spirit-Eater is. In FONV, you can decide what the Couriers story is. The way I see it, all of the games he has worked on that are hailed as "RPG Gold" do that.

Nonsense, a lot of talentless women still depend on child support payments to make a living. Why do you want to force them to work? Because NKKKK is an evil misogynist who serves the High Council of the Patriarchy. I don't serve the high council. I am in the High Council.

I think that Avellone's quote is golden advice when designing a RPG. Letting the player decide what the story of their character is should be the direction taken, not showing them a kewl EPIC story that they have no control over.

You could always buy more copies and gift them.

Nonsense, a lot of talentless women still depend on child support payments to make a living. Why do you want to force them to work? Because NKKKK is an evil misogynist who serves the High Council of the Patriarchy.

That is actually uncannily accurate.

When you finish a round of bashing, do you "romance" the sock puppet? Oh yes. Yesssssss. Well then, carpet burn must be a real bitch.

Hmmm, I'm at an impasse. Should I replay BGT or try my luck with Sacred 2, after I wrap up my NWN2 OC/MotB play through.

When you finish a round of bashing, do you "romance" the sock puppet?

Yeah, it took me forever to find a Canadian one that was worthy of this thread and was clearly Canada. Perhaps we should go into the business of producing flag bikinis?

I'm beginning to suspect that Monte Carlo is actually David Gaider.