DCParry

So wait - casting 100 spells before becoming too tired is not enough for you? Fatigue makes sense and isn't tedious. And b.t.w. - I invite you go walkign for half a day with full battle gear AND to fight in that battlegear. Then go ahead and tell me you ain't tired. I DARE you. If I can't make the bathroom button comment, you can't keep making these "real world" argument. Fair? This is a role-playing game, not a camping simulator. Nope. The reason you can't maek the bathroom comment is because it makes no sense and is a false somment. I could use your own (flawed) logic to denounce pretty much every single realistic thing in the game. Ya know..because it's not a simulator...so why have any limits at all? What does a bathroom break add? Absolutely nothing. There is nothing to manage, there is no tactical impact, there is NOTHING to think about. It's an action that takes a minute and can easily fall under "camping". Rest on the other hand does have a strategic/tactical impact. It does open new possibiltes and avenues. No, see, this just proves you don't particularly care for any sort of real discussion. That is fine, just be honest with yourself. First, resting in and of itself MEANS NOTHING. It only has relevance if the designers have made resting necessary for the setting and mechanics. Your poorly edited posts about the relevance of the real, biological need to rest add no more to the argument than making jokes about a bathroom button. I can invent strategic scenarios for the bathroom if you want. Should you go in pairs in case of owl bear attack? What if the camp is attacked while two party members are off doing their taxes in the woods? Did you buy rations with enough fiber? If not your bathroom visit will be shorter for a couple days, but super long for on day. Also, what about fruit? Does scurvy have any effect on combat effectiveness? Stop acting like one argument to realism is better than another, it isn't. You can use it as an example , but you have spouting off about real world this whole thread. I know, setting up camp can be important in an RPG, but if you were playing a PnP and had to travel three weeks to edge of another country, would you stop and play out every night's camp? I sure as hell hope not. You could play out a specific one if there was an encounter planned, but having to only march 4 hours because your wizard passed when he cast a cantrip to clean the lunch dishes just sounds like a waste of programming to me. These sorts of things can be mitigated in a PnP by common sense and human intervention. They can't in a cRPG. You could have an encounter while traveling a long distance that spawns a conversation where you decide who will stand watch for a specific incident and that is fine and cool and interesting and such. Doing it every night for a 3 week journey would make any travel take an absurd amount of time. Stop fixating on mechanics for mechanics sake. The mechanics are a tool for telling a compelling and interesting story. Are the important? Hell yes. Are the integral? Definitely, since they provide some of the bare bones for story telling. They should not, however, be such a barrier to telling a story. Resting, and a resting mechanic, is not necessarily a barrier, but there are other things to do in an cRPG.

It's an abstract. Your body has its basic ability to take damage (constitution) and the HP gain per class level is meant to be representative of the kind of training or experience you likely had. If you're a fighter and you level, chances are you've been getting hit alot more often than the wizard who leveled and was mainly just looking at books the whole time. I see what you are saying, but then can't that just be accomplished by concentrating on increasing said physical stats as opposed to something intrinsic? Maybe at first warriors can have a HP bonus, or there could be a background choice that gives a bonus to HP (local militia training) or some such. As an aside, it cracks me up how many names I keep seeing from the Bioware boards over here now, my tag was Rylor Tormtor over there and I didn't post much in general, but it is nice to see the same names and people give good input over here.

See, here is something we can agree about. HPs should be standard modified by stats, in my opinion. Spend more on endurance/constitution or whatever, more health. I suppose they could have a health stat, where you could invest directly into your health pool. I am not such a fan of that particular approach thought.

Well, they could got a DAO route. You can wear anything you want, as long as you meet the base attribute requirements. If your wizard wants to wear plate, then if he or she has the strength and/or proficiencies (not actual 2nd edition things, just a generic name for skills that could determine armor type equip-able) then boom, go for it. However, the downside will be that having spent attributes and/or skill slots on using said armor, his or her spell damage/spell choice/mana reserve/spell pool or whatever will be less than someone who concentrated solely on the arcane abilities. For those who think artificial stat requirements are not desirable, how about an optimum use stat? Say to use a chain shirt, you need a strength (or other random attribute) of 13. You can put on a chain shirt with less, lets say a 10 strength, but there will be penalties to actions (attack, maybe some spells cost more soul, or whatever). Conversely, this could reward high strength who choose to wear less than the heaviest armor possible with some minor boni to physical activities like running or climbing.

I support this but i would also like to see flaming kicks! AND SOME CHEST HAIR PLUCKING! I assume his punches, they have the power of kicks.

Very well...... barbariaaaaaaaaaaan. I want a sunsword. That is all.

Please say there are evil deer with human hands who will break our legs and lick us for the vital sugar in our bodies.

See, it sounded like Paladins would be part of the priest class and Bards the rogue, at least to me. They specifically mention diplomats in the rogue description. It seems that the class system is divided along some sort soul mechanic lines, so fighters focus their soul power on enhancing their physical attributes, priests with a direct line to their deity, and so on. As such, it seems Paladins, as envisioned as a holy warrior, would fit into the priest class. The bard might be a bit trickier.

Also on topic - FLAMING FIST SMASH ZOMBIE FACE! Love the new wallpaper.

Just so you know, this is crap. The pankration was a sport, not a combat technique. It can be argued (not very convincingly in my mind) that it developed from some sort of combat training, but besides any secondary benefits of general fitness it was of absolutely no use in warfare. In addition, it was sport that in effect was not widely practiced, and wouldn't have been by the majority of individuals who would serve as soldiers in armed conflicts (and remember, the Spartans were an anomaly, having a captive slave population so they could roll around in the gymnasium all day not farming and such - in addition, their advantage was often more "ideological" than "physical" on the battle ground). Unfortunately most of my library is in storage right now, but if you are interested I would look at Kyle, Sport and Spectacle in the Ancient World (2006) (generally the best and easiest accessible work). Also take a look at Stephen Miller, Ancient Greek Athletic (2004). Poliakoff is a bit myopic in his approach, not taking into enough account, in my opinion at least, social and cultural influences on development, which may just be a by product of his narrow focus on combat sports.

So wait - casting 100 spells before becoming too tired is not enough for you? Fatigue makes sense and isn't tedious. And b.t.w. - I invite you go walkign for half a day with full battle gear AND to fight in that battlegear. Then go ahead and tell me you ain't tired. I DARE you. If I can't make the bathroom button comment, you can't keep making these "real world" argument. Fair? This is a role-playing game, not a camping simulator.

You said a game had replicated my experience. I was just responding that it had not.

Then make it more like resting in a PnP session. Ah here we go. The thing is, you can't. CRPG can not duplicate PnP. They can adapt and try to mimic PnP environments and habits, but in the end (unless playing a co-op campaign) they are solitary experiences. You will not be arguing with your friends about who is watching first, who is cooking, who is going to investigation the spooky amusement park and so on. Games have done what you say they haven't. Well, no, I can promise you no game has ever replicated my experience from PnP D&D.

Deekin thinks that maybe the main character could be a sidekick for a dashing and handsome kobold hero. If not, we could all be DOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!

Then make it more like resting in a PnP session. Ah here we go. The thing is, you can't. CRPG can not duplicate PnP. They can adapt and try to mimic PnP environments and habits, but in the end (unless playing a co-op campaign) they are solitary experiences. You will not be arguing with your friends about who is watching first, who is cooking, who is going to investigation the spooky amusement park and so on.

See, to me, this just sounds tedious. Resting was really only included when it served a functional purpose. A functional purpose that was ported from a different medium into CRPG's. There is nothing inherent in resting that enriches an RPG. Inns and such serve whatever purpose the devs want them to serve. They can still be places to gather and interact, but pressing a rest button has always struck me as a strange, artificial action. Do I have to press the "use the bathroom" button as well? Tedious? Dude, try traveling for the whole day and telling me resting is pointless. It has purpsoe. It has worth. Not only does it make the world more real, it also fulfils a logical purpose and gives towns and inns more character. And that "bathroom" bit is getting old. An argument that never worked because it can be extended to everything. Yes, in real life it is necessary. However, I would rather experience other things besides setting up a camp in an RPG. Again, resting only makes sense if there is a reason for it. There has to be benefit beyond "being able to march another day". Pressing the button to "camp" is not an engaging or exiting experience, beyond the expectation of an attack.

I agree, but we should ask what is the point is resting as well. Does it serve any useful purpose? Do we miraculously heal multiple head and upper injuries after a good nights sleep? Will there be a rules that will send you into a coma if you rest right after a fight where you received a head injury? Is sleep the only way to regen soul energy, or whatever we use to magic stuff? If we are moving away from a memorization based magic system (and I hope we are), then the point of resting needs to be re-evaluated. Resting because we marching for 12 hours means we have to implement a consistent time passing system in the game. Which means actions and quests will probably have to be timed. I know we all like consequences and choices and such, but will those bandits hold the duke's daughter safe for the 4 weeks it takes you to get there because you hit some random encounters and Bob the Mage's eyeball was knocked out and you had to go to the hedge witch and she needed a shrub for her spell to fix it? I think a fatigue bar might add a fun dimension and off the oppurtunity to think tactically, but I think it needs to be an active pool, that is something that you use to quicken or augment abilities. Making it a pool that drains constantly just doesn't sound fun. Again, it invited rest spamming and meta-gaming approached.

Also, for the love of all that is unholy, Gandalf was for all intents and purposes a DEMIGOD. Sigh.

However in most games you don't act this out. It's rare to have a game where you collect arrows from corpses or repair them. A lot of players would complain that this was too tedious. What makes you think it has to be tedious? See, this can sort of tedium can be made less obvious. Instead of looting every shot corpse, you automatically receive a portion of spent ammunition, modified by a flecher or scavenger skill, minus those that break through predetermined criteria (maybe all critical hits are un-retrievable - you can't quite pry it out of the ogre's skull).

See, to me, this just sounds tedious. Resting was really only included when it served a functional purpose. A functional purpose that was ported from a different medium into CRPG's. There is nothing inherent in resting that enriches an RPG. Inns and such serve whatever purpose the devs want them to serve. They can still be places to gather and interact, but pressing a rest button has always struck me as a strange, artificial action. Do I have to press the "use the bathroom" button as well?

Ugh. Why do we need to rest again? I spent the 80's hitting the heal up button playing Champions of Krynn. Can't we get away from D&D now?

See, here is where the problem. I am here not because I want a remake of those particular games. I do not want the same thing. Those games are great, they are fun, and they have their own charm. This project is supposed to be inspired by the experience. The problem is people have different ideas about what that "experience". For me, mechanics and spread-sheets are the least part of cRPGs. I understand their importance, I like discussing them, but I find the near cultish obsession with things like spell memorization and anti-cool down rants fairly strange. I want a new game that captures the environment and feeling of those classic games, not a tribute a spell casting system that has always been a problematic port to computer.

Wait, what? You once argued that using meta-gaming concerns as an argument against Vancian, and said the developers could use resting restrictions to mediate spamming. But now, you are against a system that does JUST THAT THING FOR WHICH YOU ARGUED! Stop being contrary just for the sake of it.

See, an in depth story with tactical and strategic thinking as well as an in depth role playing experience is what I am looking for, which has more to do with the game as a whole as opposed to the mechanics.

Nevertheless, the choice is not a good one. I liked DAO combat. I hated DA2 combat.