Slowtrain

The nice thing is that every game's hype machine (or lack thereof) runs out after a few years. Once nobody cares any more, once there's no more money to be made, no more axes to grind, no more mags to sell, games can be seen more clearly for what they really brought to the table ( or didn't bring).

WoW was one my one potential nominee that I considered, even though I don't think too highly of it personally. It's had to great an impact on gaming really, it seems, to not be a classic. Still, I think it needs to be over for a few years before we can really say.

I said, cult classic, not general classic. The Witcher has too specific an appeal, and its audience is too small to carry weight in a fight against trash like Halo, Gears of War etc. Bioshock will probably gain the title of mainstream classic, but only because its the very highest point of very low times, so to speak. I would also nominate Shadow of the Colossus. Otoh, some classic games like System SHock never had mass appeal. Yet, over the years, they continued to endure and gained the respect and admiration of many. I don't think mass appeal is neccessary or even required for a game to be a classic. Nor does a game with mass appeal have less chance to be a classic. That's why it takes a while to really evaluate the lasting impact of a game. ALl the dust needs to settle out.

It would be helpful to know ahead of time what numbers Sega is putting on AP as being successful numbers. It could be that, especially given AP's troubled development, Sega has low expectations and just wants the thing done and released and whatever money it generates will be a bonus. SO if it sold 500,000 copies in the first month, maybe Sega would view it as a huge surprise hit. Some of the value of these numbers is all relative to expectation.

Yeah, I agree. I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. Personally, STALKER:SOC is a absolute classic of gaming and one of my favorites ever ( and ever is a long long time for me). But, however highly I may think of it, does STALKER do something so awesome or so new or so perfectly that is merits status as an all time classic of gaming. I don't think so. Otoh, I personally think Bioshock is a chunk of poo, but I can see the viewpoint that is has some hallmarks of what makes a classic. So I am rwecpetive to the idea. I think, with a little thought, its possible to greatly reduce personal bias when evaluating games.

Let's not go overboard. That's a tad harsh and pessimistic, no?

I don't think enough time has passed on either Bioshock or The WItcher that we can yet know how they stand in the pantheon of gaming. At this point, to me, neither one qualifies as a classic. But that could change in a few years.

Well, I don't think either Sega or Obs WANTED AP to slip as it has. So while unfortunate for AP perhaps, there really isn't much point in being to hard about it. There originally was not the intention to release AP in late October 2009. Just the way its all turned out. Considering what happened to Alien crpg, it may be lucky that we are seeing the game at all. If it had been further back in development, maybe we wouldn't.

Of course. Take things down small enough, and you'll find places where an open homosexual is perfectly accepted and not treated differently. Move somewhere else, and you'll find a similar sample size where an open homosexual puts his life in jeopardy by being open about it. The joys of macro-level vs micro-level sociology. All things take place in a sociological context. My inquiry was just a supposition, but obviously it comes from my own personal experiences and impressions of the sociological contexts I am familiar with. I am a big fan of empiricism however. Are there examples of places (preferably macro) where young women acting masculine is MORE ostracized than young men acting feminine? I basically would agree that gay men generally provoke a stronger and widespread reaction than gay women, although I have heard people say some really unpleasant thing about gay women. I'm only hesitant because I think there can be so much variation that it renders generalizations difficult. But effeminate young man and tomboy are not the same thing as gay men and women. The football club might beat up the young man and the cheerleaders might ostracize the tomboy, but that maybe more just a product of being a kid than anything else. If we want to discuss gays men and gay women, we should probably talk about gay men and gay women and not effeminate your men and tomboys, neither of whom may be gay to begin with.

Nothing I can think of in the last few years. Not there haven't neccessarily been any; I just don't think I've played them. But its hard to say; a pretty decent chunk of time needs to pass before games can be evaluated as to their impact/importance/etc on gaming as a whole.

I think the amount of acceptance for either of those examples is going to vary a lot by enviornment and peer group.

Simply because you weren't able to see them, doesn't mean they aren't there. I do find it absolutely delightful that you make a snide remark about how he only sees them because he wants to see them. However, given your rather obvious love of the Witcher, I'm not at all surprised you were never able to see it. You didn't want to, because it'd taint your perspective of it. See, it's easy to have fun like this. I loved the WEitcher but never noticed any of that stuff either. Of course, tbch, I never really looked that closely at the cards. Now that Enoch and HK pointed some out it's fairly obvious. The tree is anyway. It's pretty funny.

I don't think they're coming back. Your elitism must have offended them right out the door.

lol. Haven't heard that one in a few years. Anyways, I was tired of people assuming I was female.

Either way, every game I've ever played has at least a couple wonky animations. Or texture art. Or modeling. You just become used to them and move on.

A year ago, I though this game would sell great. Now I am less hopeful. My fear is that it will be like System Shock, a great game that eventually becomes a classic that every recollects fondly, but very few actually played when it was released. SOmetimes the most interesting games seem to slip through the cracks. Probabably because they are somewhat harder to categorize and somewhat different to play. AP just doesn't seem to be getting the play of some of the competeting titles. WHich is a shame because right now it looks like the best game of the year. Of course, can't say for sure until the year is actually over and all games have been released. edit: Although with good reviews and word of mouth, I'm sure the game can sell a lot of copies over time. I just don't know if it can blow out 2 million in the first couple weeks. It would be interesting to know exactly what level of expectation Sega has for the game. How many copies does AP need to sell how fast to be qualified as a "success"?

This word, it does not mean what you think it means. Actually misanthropy is "a hatred of humankind". What you're talking about is misandry, or "a hatred of males". Misogyny is actually misanthropy, unless your implication is that women aren't human beings the way men are. Perhaps it's best that I don't ask you to clarify. Thank you for that clarification. Misanthropy did not seem directly analagous to misogyny and I was wondering if there was a more directly opposite term. Now I know there is. Please take my previous uses of misanthrory and substitute misandry. Thanks. If all of this fuss is strictly due to the achievement, then it would seem a whole lot of fuss over nothing, which it already does, since there is an achievement for the opposite as well. As has been previously pointed out several times.

No he's a misogynist because he has sex with women. In a game. If he was gay he would be a misanthrope. Because he had sex with men. In a game. edit: He also dual wields SMGs. In a game.

Post of the week.

misogyny

Not to mention, that it features some great swamps I thought the swamps were the best part of the entire game. By Far. WHich lead to a somewhat disappointing experience overall. The faction war concept could have worked, but the maps weren't really large enough to support that level of conflict. If there had been triple the territory perhaps, and the factions had been less static, the whole thing could have been pretty cool.

Don't we do that all ready?

I don't buy the reductionist argument. Not because I disagree with it, but because people tend to agree with it only when it suits them. Roger Ebert frequently makes this argument and gamers tend to get mad and disparage him. Take a game like Torment, a game that people around here and on many other outlets across the internet tend to hold up as an example of intercharacter relationships done right, or "as right as games can get". It seems to me that the reason people love it so much is that they actually believe Torment achieved something that the reductionist argument posits is impossible. The gameplay certainly wasn't exceptionally fun. The C&C was okay, there was certainly some freedom as far as feasible character builds are concerned, but you don't really hear about those things as much as you hear about Dakkon's oath, or the ghost woman's (I forget her name) storied love of the Nameless One. I don't really think people who cherish these things think that games are incapable of portraying meaningful relationships. Doesn't mean that Torment isn't as socially retarded as any other game of course, but people certainly want to think it's special, and that's a hard thing to admit when games are "just a form of entertainment". Sure, any creative human endeavor can aspire to be more than a entertiniment product, but it hasn't really happened with games yet. Books and mvoies have there big commercial products and their smaller non-commercial releases. Gaming still hasn't been able to incorporate the latter to any great degree. ATM, Torment not withstanding, games are shallow products aimed to provide entertainment. Any misogynism that ends up in them is simply subconscious overflow from the cultural pool, not an attempt at putting forth a misogynist agenda. (Although there may be exceptions to that. I haven't played all games)

I jsut logged into the Bioware forums for the first time in, I dunno, a long time. Amazed my accunt is still active.