BruceVC

No idea. What's wrong with your donkey?

Sorry if I misunderstood you, no hard feelings

This is one of the points I wanted to raise. I will watch the Winter Olympics because there is a greater good here but I am generally just appalled with the Russian social conditions and how minority groups are treated and how Putin runs his government. Some of the issues for me include the unacceptable rise and legislation of homophobia the working conditions of migrant workers getting the Olympics ready Russian disinterest in accepting American help with preventing any terrorist attacks. I know this is a point around pride but they should have no issue with accepting unconditional help that may prevent loss of life

So is north Korea It's not about who is more stable or less, its about preventing the spread of nuclear weapons everywhere.(and reducing the stocks that we already have) Everyone want them, especially the "underdogs", if Iran get them its only a matter of time until Turkey and Saudi get them(they are already thinking about it) etc etc etc Ahmadinejad?! don't tell me you buy this whole Rouhani the liberal crap. Iran has been misconducting well before Ahmadinejad read this The figure head change is purely political move, underneath it still the same supreme leader Ali Khamenei... Their policies hasn't been changed. They still playing for time hoping that with time public relations will allow them to pass the sanctions and keep at what they do. You've raised some good points but we differ on Iran's international intentions. I believe that they want sanctions lifted and they want to be part of the international community again. In order to do this they are prepared to make serious concessions around there nuclear program, these concessions are tangible and needed. Now they could be lying and planning to somehow develop nuclear weapons, not nuclear technology needed for a source of energy, but we will have to wait and see.

We need more people like you on these forums, BruceVC! I really think this is a great candidate for the post of the year! This is exactly how I feel. That's a nice thing to say, thanks Indira I also want to say you haven't typically been involved in too many complex Off Topic discussions and I'm really enjoying your perspective and insight into various topics. Keep up the good work.

I've heard some stories about South Africa, particularly the ones about the myth of virgin blood being the cure for aids and what ensued after. Not pleasant tales. I do realize that sexism, discrimination, and aggression towards women exists but there is a world of difference between some third world country village where the chief orders the rape of woman and someone saying that Dragon's Crown is bad cause is sexist. The thing about the changes is that some of those things are part of the visual style of the game, Frazetta created a style that explored sex and fantasy; what if he had compromised his vision to quell malcontents? There is a difference between art and taste which is something that a lot of people have trouble separating. PS; you seem to like a lot of posts from this thread and from both sides of the argument. What gives man, pick a side? Well I try to not let emotion, or the fact I stand by what I say, cloud my recognition of a valid point even if that person typically disagrees with the sentiment of what I believe

Mor I have been following this story for a while now and the one point that I missed through the years about Iran's right to develop peaceful nuclear technology is that they genuinely feel that they haven't been treated fairly by the international community. There are countries much more unstable than them like Pakistan and NK and they have nuclear technology and weapons. So why can't they be allowed to get this technology? Now I know under Ahmadinejad Iran made several statements and committed several deeds that were very concerning but I really feel the country is following a more liberal and reasonable direction under Rouhani. So we need to give them the benefit of the doubt, we don't really have a choice as the USA is not going to go the military route unless all options are exhausted. And we are seeing Iran making the agreed on changes to there nuclear program so its looking good

I can't tell but from your tone it seems that I'm getting a rise out of you, I assure that is not my intention and I apologize. If what I understand from your post is right then we should analyze the context of modern feminist philosophy which can be summarized as: Women are being oppressed by a system that devalues them while simultaneously promoting aggression towards them (aka. the Patriarchy, rape Culture). Even if you ignore the fact that those two concepts could be the result of a conspiracy nut delusions, those notions have an effect of radicalizing feminists who take the concept to heart. I can't take someone who presents those concepts as self evident proof of the oppression of women (which they aren't) seriously. The reason why I brought that picture and quote forward is because there is no solid evidence on either side that there is a conspiracy against them. So it amount to nothing more that opinions rather than facts. I have thought of the importance of a re-branding of feminism who don't subscribe to the same philosophy that those fringe elements; which it has somewhat occurred with the Sex Positive Feminists. Otherwise any genuinely rational idea that comes from it would be regarded as fruit of the poisonous tree and dismissed. I am totally OK with that, as I said before I believe that the industry should grow. It is just that I see that particular market heading in no direction since no one seems to know how to approach it, myself included. But as long as the rhetoric remains blaming publishers for targeting male demographics and shaming men for their enjoyment I doubt anyone is going to figure it out. Which is the problem with the whole affair, their rhetoric is confrontational and seeks to antagonize rather than cooperate and contribute to the growth of the industry. IMO this is due to the aformentioned concepts which create a divide between feminists and the systems that are perceived to oppress them. I just see a lot of people throwing that study as concrete proof of a female gaming audience which could turn out to be the new COD crowd; which is a mass of people that just buys a few games a year, or it could possibly be the result of an overlap in demographics. Either way it couldn't be replicated and it spawned a series of COD clones. The case could be that there are women who are active in social sites that enjoy playing those game while browsing but aren't necessarily interested in gaming. I don't require a study just proof that there is a demographic, which is hard to say since there hasn't been a game solely targeting women. Instead publishers opt for the token character as a means of attracting said group. Which is really counterproductive as it is the equivalent of asking for a seat at the table and instead getting scraps. I don't believe that a study that is directed specifically to figuring out the buying habits of female gamers counts as a defensive perpetuity, that's the study I would like to see. It would give a more clear direction on how to tap said market and in turn it would be proof that said market exists. That's a good post and I can appreciate the fact you have taken the time to articulate your point in detail. I agree with several things you've said But one thing you need to realize is that sexism and discrimination against women is not some fantasy made up by bored liberals, its real and exists all around us. Sometimes its surreptitious and underhanded but it is real. I can tell you stories about living in South Africa that will shock you You can often see the true views of people when it comes to discussions of social justice not so much by what they say but rather what they don't say. For me end of the day what I don't get is that you can make certain changes to some games without impacting the gaming experience, so if we know that some things people object to why not just make those changes? Now I'm not suggesting every change that every person demands should be considered but I think you get my point

Funny enough Malc but I've supported numerous KS that are your typical party based RPG where there are male and female characters But in most cases I won't support a KS that doesn't have some sort of female representation or is dismissive of social issues, for example a game that has homophobia or racist undertones. The good news is these games nowadays are few and far between as most publishing and development companies are aware of what many people expect or don't think is applicable. You probably think this is an extreme view but that's my stance on what games I'm prepared to support. Of course there are games where my view isn't relevant like RTS

Normally that would be a valid point accept for the fact that with stretch goals allowing the budget to reach double the original tier to allow some form of female representation I don't think that is applicable. In other words they have effectively raised enough money to create 2 games based on the original target, I fail to see how they can't incorporate a decent female footprint if the issue is just about resourcing?

Its not really that funny because its a game end of the day not a medieval simulator so the Developers are allowed to use artistic license in creating characters that people like to play

Guys I have a good idea, why don't they make the game with a female only protagonist who can be a bard or outlaw, or any other historically accurate profession? Then they make a stretch goal of 2-3 million to allow us to play as a male. This way we can see if the community wants proper gender representation. Now before you say " that won't work" think about all the social issues like discrimination that the female character will face apart from all the trials and tribulations that would be normal in a medieval setting Who is with me !!!!

Indira is really polite. You are coming across as an uniformed sexist, there is no reason that a company can't make a game where a women is an outlaw, mercenary or bard...or one of many other profession that existed in the medieval ages . But its really annoying to keep hearing people say "well we can't have a women character in a medieval game because that's unrealistic". If you actually want to learn something please read this link I posted earlier http://fozmeadows.wordpress.com/2012/12/08/psa-your-default-narrative-settings-are-not-apolitical/ I am not saying having women in 15th century is unrealistic, I am saying that having women blacksmithing and fighting bandits, soldiers and ploting with/against kings in armor during this period in central europe is plain stupid but thanks for whiteknighting (first time I am inpolite during this disscussion because you call me sexist for some unknown reason) Oh no you don't understand, I'm not whiteknighting. This is exactly what I think, it may be a language translation problem but your comments come across as dismissive and sexist Your first comment around this topic irritated me but I left it as I always seem to comment about these things and I didn't want to overdo it, you said "Women thing again even here? Really? Yeah you are all right, women in 15th century in central Europe were equal to man, right. Now lets talk about unicorns in space" Do you really think this comment cannot be seen in a sexist way?

Indira is really polite. You are coming across as an uniformed sexist, there is no reason that a company can't make a game where a women is an outlaw, mercenary or bard...or one of many other profession that existed in the medieval ages . But its really annoying to keep hearing people say "well we can't have a women character in a medieval game because that's unrealistic". If you actually want to learn something please read this link I posted earlier http://fozmeadows.wordpress.com/2012/12/08/psa-your-default-narrative-settings-are-not-apolitical/

You've raised some good points around the story and focus being split. I can see you mean. And that could dilute overall gaming experience I would prefer then that they let you choose male or female right from the beginning and they use that extra money to change certain aspects of the story and the reaction you get from people.

Some good news, I see if the game reaches its 600K mark there will be a female character. So its looking much better

It seems like, much like the Witcher games, the protagonists look is set in stone. This would obviously make much of the development much easier, not having to allow for different body shapes, sizes, and looks in equipment design, cutscenes, etc. Also, as Zoraptor stated, medieval Europe was a very mesculine dominated society. Allowing you to play a female character would force extra work for the programmers and designers in tailoring equipment to different body shapes and changing the responses of NPCs to the gender of the character (if you're not going to have different responses depending on gender, what difference does it make whether you play a male or female character?). You can get away with gender choice in fantasy games because you can always just say that in this world genders are treated more or less equally, but if you're going for something historically accurate from the medieval period, then males and females would need to play differently. So the question becomes, is the extra work in allowing gender choice in the budget? Also, is it worth the extra work involved? I absolutely think the extra work would be worth the effort in the interests of inclusivity, artistic license and historical accuracy. Come on guys, those pesky female characters won't bite I'm sure most of you have read this link. But it discusses how the contribution of women and other minority groups has not been represented accurately around fiction and general writing about historical events. Please take the time to read it http://fozmeadows.wordpress.com/2012/12/08/psa-your-default-narrative-settings-are-not-apolitical/

Okay that is unusual, bacon and oats. I may try it some time..but I associate oats as something healthy and bacon as more of a treat and junk food. But maybe I can eat it as more for a special meal

Thanks for the response, you have raised some interesting points based on your observations. I can understand how where you live would be influenced by Russia due to the geography. I have been following this story with interest because its an internal ideological divide between aligning with Russia or joining the EU. Either way Ukraine goes it can set a precedent for certain other countries I know this has nothing to do with what games we are playing so I apologize for those who might have had to read this but we are a global community so I assume people would find this relevant

That sucks. Hmm.. ME3 MP. I suddenly realized why I removed Origin. After I moved to Ukraine it's all in russian. I should really learn this language, but it's too alien aand full of soft sounds. How are doing in the Ukraine with all the civil unrest at the moment?

And yet, I'm glad Spec ops exists because having the criticism of modern shooters manifest in a game will likely have more of an effect than any forum post, single game journalist editorial, Tasteful Understated Nerdrage, Jimquisition, petition, etc. will. I will not say Spec Ops presented its point 100% perfectly, and I'll have my avatar's reaction when somebody argues "But Spec ops' gameplay is designed to be boring!", but god damn did I feel like I needed a cigarette when that game ended, and I hope your preconception of the game isn't heavily influenced by the opinions of a forum where everything, except some really obscure/old RPGs that even only very few fans of the very genre have played, will get tons of snarky **** Nordicus that's why its incumbent on you to be positive about games that you enjoyed or if you feel a particular forum is being overly negative. You can't let people on any forum tell you what games are worthwhile or not, only you can determine that

You right that is embarrassing, and you quite comfortable acknowledging it in a public forum. Have you no shame

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25776836 Guys here is an excellent article debunking many of the myths around WW1

To be honest I really thought that is what I have been saying, I need to work on explaining myself better

I don't understand everything you have posted but that's fine as I think I get what you mean What I will say has been discussed before but I want to be clear about it, and I'll keep it simple. In the context of this discussion there is a difference between objectification and idealisation. The former is a negative and latter a positive. There are games that position women characters so that they add relevance to the plot, look good and are interesting to play as the primary character. This is what is meant by idealisation. Its the same as most male characters that we can form a connection with. Then you have games where the female contribution towards the game is really only about there obscenely incongruous body parts or the visual aspect of what they add to the dynamic of your overall gaming experience. There doesn't seem to be variety and anything worthwhile, outside of the looks, that the character adds to the game. This is the objectification of women in games in my view