BruceVC

I haven't played it but there are several people at one of my customers who are addicted to it and say its the best tactical shooter they have ever played. They want me to join there group and MP with them.

Well I wish you a speedy recovery How did you say you broke your hand again?

No, Bruce. Wrong country. hahaha. I know different countries are confusing to you but what you're suggesting has nothing to do with Australia. That's a different country you're thinking of altogether. Nice try though. Nothing like someone who tries to make a joke and fails dismally by confusing it with another country. But it was still funny right, at least it made you laugh. It made me laugh I'm not avoiding this discussion as I'm really enjoying it but I have things to do today. So lets continue this debate later where I can respond accordingly to your questions?

It's not inappropriate or irrelevant. I think I can sum up that you yourself have to be able to connect physically before any emotional involvement and not the other way around. There's no way you could connect emotionally first with an 'unattractive' woman in your eyes and then later feel attracted to that person later through deep and meaningful conversation. At least that's how it comes across. You would avoid that person on looks alone before it even got anywhere. Nothing like superficiality at its finest. Strange that the beauty and the beast concept is just idealistic to you. The message to me is that it's one's heart, rather than one's appearance that matters most. It's also striking that you couldn't romance a cat like person in a game like Skyrim which you've mentioned in the past and yet the TV show with Linda Hamilton has something very similar. She's romancing a cat like man. And during that time when the show was on, it seemed a lot of women were infatuated with Vincent on the show. Your view of 'Beauty and the Beast' and how you couldn't connect with an unattractive women most likely viewing her as the beast and you as the beauty makes me wonder if that unattractive woman actually sees you as the beast. As you've said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You see what you want to see and you see yourself as 'beautiful' when in fact you could very well be the beast to everyone else. I'm confused, are you asking me what I find attractive in RL or what I find "attractive" in RPG? You have been asking me some unusual questions, things like "can you Romance a semi-humanoid creature", "beauty is not what you see", "what is the definition of attraction" ....and then it occurred to me what you really asking. You want to know if Obsidian will allow you to Romance.... a sheep And unfortunately the answer to that is an unequivocal no !!! I know in parts of Australia this is acceptable social behaviour but for most of the rest of the world its just not considered normal so we won't be seeing that in PoE. But good trying to generate discussion around potential Romance options

I've never brought up multi-tentacled aliens Bruce. The non-humans including aliens I have brought up have been humanoid. You know arms, legs, torso, head, etc. No tentacles. So your realism of romantic expectations are to have beautiful sexy females that you're attracted to. Anything you deem unattractive you'll avoid, because you know, 'realism'. LOL. Oh god. that's hilarious. I'm just wondering what you do consider 'unattractive'. Is it more than just what she looks like? eg. Do you see a female that's stunning but in a wheel chair 'unattractive' and therefore avoid the notion of going out with her? Lets not confuse RL with Romance in a game, we are talking about a fantasy RPG here. So your question around someone in a wheelchair is inappropriate and irrelevant to the discussion I am not saying you need beautiful females or good looking males, I am saying you have to identify with a person to Romance them. And part of the identification is an appeal on the aesthetic level. And your photos of aliens and orcs and then asking if these are suitable Romance candidates is not going to be acceptable because most people don't identify with them? Its not complicated

Attraction can be something else other than sexy physical characteristics. The NPC may not be physically attractive to you at first, but over time you develop an attraction for them. This often happens in real life. Who would have though? And No, I'm neither surprised nor disappointed that developers are pandering to players fantasies. But nice to try make out that I was when I wasn't. I'm merely stating the obvious that developers do create unrealistic NPCs with anthropomorphising and sexualising those non-human NPCs to appeal to gamers to romance them. That's the unrealistic part that you think is realistic and based on realism. You are absolutely correct that attraction can grow in time but that applies to attraction amongst humans. But when we are having a hypothetical discussion around whether the main character would develop Romance with a multi-tentacle alien I find it hard to believe under any circumstances The concept of Beauty and the Beast is a sweet story but its idealistic and not relevant to modern Romance implementations. So once again I am dwelling in the world of realism with my Romance expectations and I find your ideas fanciful at best?

Yes they do. Developers do anthropomorphise and sexualise non-human NPCs for romance options. Otherwise players and promancers like Bruce wouldn't romance them if they were ugly. They have to be attractive for players to romance them, hence anthropomorphise and sexualise non-human npcs. You're right in that The existence of humanoid characters, does not shatter realism if developers don't anthropomorphise and sexualise those NPCs. What shatters realism is always having those attractive non-human npcs because the developers are pandering to the players. And I'm not painting everything red. If you bothered to read my posts, I said have a cross section of those races from butt ugly to attractive. It's the same with humans. You should also have attractive and non-attractive humans. Same with non-humans. Having entire non-human race in games anthropomorphised and sexualised seems far from reality as you can get. They say "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" But we also need to be realistic, a Romance experience is also about the fact that for most promancers you have to identify with the person you are Romancing. Part of identifying is being "attracted" to your potential Romance partner. So those photos you posted of the orc's are the same as the photo's of the aliens, they are just not attractive. And I would be surprised that any promancer would consider them a prospective Romance partner? That's what you seem to be missing, you keep being surprised or disappointed that the Dev's are pandering to players around NPC aesthetics. My point is its not pandering as part of the foundation of Romance is attraction, so in fact the Devs are doing the prudent thing around game design in this respect. We shouldn't be criticising them but acknowledging this as it makes perfect sense?

Yes. Also of course you can get lost. I was totally lost so I went with level 11 to hunters Edge and had a hart time there. After Silvreglen I did not know where to go so I went exploring XD But I think you guys are misunderstanding Monte, he doesn't mean lost in the literal and negative sense. IMO he is making a metaphorical point around getting "lost" and its more about exploring and seeing exciting things outside the main quest, its a positive experience

Oh so romance is all about looks eh? Ugly aliens do not deserve love? THIS JUST PROVES THE SHALLOWNESS OF THE PROMANCERS. I may not be totally serious there.

I think it depends on what your definition of immersion is, for me MMO do offer an immersive experience. And I'm not intentionally being argumentative, I truly believe that

False. What you claim is a fallacy. No on is forcing Israel to bomb houses. To claim tis' the ONLY outcome and that someone else is responsible for you pulling the trigger is nothing more than guilt projection. "You made me do it" is the worst argument when it's clear that you didn't really have to do it. Are you honestly claiming that bombing the area the rocket came from the the ONLY reasonable response one can take? Really? By using THAT logic Isreal FORCED those people to shoot the rockets. Wanna go further down the guilt chain? Also, palestinans are not Hamas. I agree with you in the sense the bombings are not the right strategy. They should have sent in ground troops, more difficult for them but ultimately the right way to minimize casualties

That sounds really fun and is something I don't think I have experienced in ages, the idea of being "lost off the main story" and not really even caring that much

I was also talking about crpgs in general and the same principal applies to PoE. Another race in PoE would be alien to you. We can only guess at the biological nature of the races in Eora. Perhaps Josh can enlighten us with his world building and inform the community if a Human and Orlan have the capacity to mate. Perhaps the Orlans have a different physiology underneath their clothes and humans can't have sex with them. If you're playing a human and you have an Orlan in your party, that Orlan would probably be alien to you in terms of sexual intercourse, if it is even possible. And the Orlan probably wouldn't want a human trying to have sex with them. Romanceable NPCs are usually anthropomorphised and sexualised for the player even if the NPC isn't human. This is very common in crpgs. They always have 'human features' to try and make the player feel attracted to that NPC. That's not realism. If you were to try and make a game more 'realistic', you wouldn't always have the most attractive types of races in your party. That's just pandering to the player. You should have a cross section of those races from butt ugly to attractive. In D&D terms, the picture should reflect the Charisma of the NPC and their interactions in the game world, including the interactions between party members. I'd like to see NPCs reflect a cross section of their races and not the idealised and attractive. You would have a deep friendship with your companions, you would care for them and they would for you. But romancing wouldn't come up. But the friendship is there. Deep and meaningful. There's even TV shows and movies that have this theme with the human and some other race working together. Of course friendship should always exist amongst the party. But you and I have had this debate before where we agreed on what would be acceptable Romance options based on the physiology of a potential Romance partner and I explained the Romance interest is normally based on humanoid creature. So no centaurs, broodmothers, beholders or similar creatures as they aren't humanoid so the intimacy part of Romance would be illogical. But dwarfs, elves, orcs, drow, fairies these are acceptable Romance options Also the main reason I don't like those aliens is that they are ugly, that's the reality. I have nothing against aliens as we know from the ME games where there are loads of attractive aliens. So this is more a questions of aesthetics when it comes to humanoid aliens and can you Romance them

One of the problems with crpgs and romances, especially with romance with aliens is the anthropomorphism and sexualisation of those aliens. This is not realism at all. We have no idea what an alien would look like. Also, having sex with an alien would likely be just as repulsive for the alien as it is for you, unless you like sick and twisted sex. But then that wouldn't go down well for the promancers if those aliens weren't made to have human characteristics would it? If aliens like the ones below were in your party, would you feel attracted to them, romance them and have sex with them? Because these NPCs could be just as 'realistic' as any other type of NPC you come across in a game. Nope I don't find those aliens attractive at all, but what have aliens got to do with Romance in PoE?

"Survivors are unlikely"......the plane was shot down 10 km up by a missile Come on guys, this may be a forum dedicated to a fantasy game but lets try to sometimes discuss things that are at least feasible..at least in the Off Topic section?

Don't be silly Hassat, there are no survivors and these search parties are normal to get everything associated with these types of crashes.

Don't joke I'm sure that's exactly what will happen if the Russians get to it first You've implied far more than that. And you don't know what you're talking about. I never justified anything. A plane shouldn't have been where a Buk-M1 was lost by Ukrainian millitary weeks ago. It's a fact, not a justification. Someone in charge of this messed up, it's not just the rebels who predictably shoot at everything that flies over them. So lets focus on your accusation, what exactly "do I not know what I'm talking about " That's the plance was shot down by Ukrainian separatists or the Russians have the flight recorder? The implication that which you agreed with that Russia will take the black box and do something nefarious with it like hide it and what's on it. Not only you don't know this but it looks like Russia doesn't even want to keep it at least officially. So perhaps hasty conclusion even there. Fair enough, I did suggest that Russia may have ulterior motives in keeping the black box. But now I don't see why they would keep the black box as the shooting down of the plane was done by Ukrainian separatists. But lets see where the black box ultimately ends up and who analyses its contents. All interested parties should have access to it

I saw this on Steam on special and I'm thinking about buying it as well ?

I don't think anyone has ever said or suggested that every single party member will be romantically attracted to the main character. All I'm saying is that adversity can bring people closer and its not unrealistic to suggest this won't necessarily lead to a natural Romance Are you sure that there is no healing magic in the PoE world, if so then yes one would have to be cautious around inordinate sexual behaviour And it's also perfectly natural to not be attracted to somebody whom you are travelling with. Yes Nonek but if you are attracted to a NPC and vice versa and you are living with the reality that each day may be your last during some epic quest where the fate of the entire world possibly rests on your shoulders and you spend many nights around a campfire discussing your own mortality and the vicissitudes of life would you concede that Romance is going to develop...or at least be very likely?

I don't think anyone has ever said or suggested that every single party member will be romantically attracted to the main character. All I'm saying is that adversity can bring people closer and its not unrealistic to suggest this won't necessarily lead to a natural Romance Are you sure that there is no healing magic in the PoE world, if so then yes one would have to be cautious around inordinate sexual behaviour

STD would always be a concern due to licentious behaviour but this is mitigated by the fact that magic can basically be used to heal any ailment....so no need to worry Nonek

So you're for the 'lets have sex now as this might be our last day living' type of cliché. lol. And that's all it is. A cliché. No thanks. Well this is one part of a Romance arc. Having sex with party members on an epic journey is not unreasonable considering the bonds that would be formed around points like the fact that party members are prepared to die for you, have faced death with you, you have an emotional connection with them and you are attracted to them. In fact I would argue that to suggest there wouldn't be a physical connection is unrealistic? And you know me Hiro. I'm all about realism, where possible, when it comes to a RPG

Wowzers dude that was quick, do you keep website links in your favourites folder for your browser for exactly this moment so that you can destroy someone's dreams and aspirations

finally, now it all makes sense. I can just ignore everything you post from this point on, thanks for clarifying that. Why would you ignore what he is saying? If you disagree with him then explain why....that's the purpose of debate and forums

I am the eternal optimist, what if Obsidian is actually going to include Romance in PoE and they just didn't want to spoil the excitement? Like the fact we know nothing about the story of PoE?