BruceVC

I think you are missing my point or I am clearly missing yours Obviously that's not how I speak or how I would speak about a Romance option. This is just an example to highlight how a crass comment around heterosexual sexual innuendo would be more acceptable than a crass comment around homosexual sexual innuendo. I would think this would be obvious so epic fail on trying to understand my post. That's a D- on interpretation Gromnir, D - .....

Ouch, that does look painful...

That's a clever way for them to generate more revenue and have some fun at the same time, play the patriot card Personally I like both types of waffles but I am more use to traditional sweet Belgian waffles...not the savoury type

Its harder than you may realize to find articles that don't across in a way that annoys people more than they encourage debate. Even this article I thought was great but after reading some of the criticism I now realize parts of the message will be lost due to the writers posting style. But I'll carry on looking and post one when its relevant

I have been only active on various forums for the last 5 years so I didn't know about previous attempts on inclusivity like that Alfa example so that's interesting and good to know. But I want to focus on the last paragraph, I don't want to give undeserved credit to Bioware but I also think we should recognize that Bioware has created a popular and well known "safe " zone for gay gamers where they can discuss Romance options without fear of ridicule or criticism. And this is important as this is part of the discussion around inclusivity in games and gaming websites This is not the same thing as websites that won't tolerate Homophobia. My experience around gay Romance discussions is that this is one of the most contentious issues that people battle to accept. For example if I go to any gaming website that is discussing Romance in Bioware games and say "Wow Isabela was hot, nice breasts on that one. I would have loved to tap that ass" the most criticism I would receive is something along the lines of " that's crude"...or " wow you are objectifying women in a crass way " or something similar Now take that same example but let me rather raise the fact that Anders was hot then describe how I want to have sex with him and I can guarantee you the criticism will be much more personal and vituperative Even on these forums where I've been involved in Romance discussion there has been criticism directed towards Romance along the lines of " BSN actually encourages inter-racial relationships" and "We don't mind Romance but the thought of gay Romance is not right ". So in summary I don't think we can downplay what websites like BSN do for inclusivity and the fact that they create "safe" zones for minority groups. Yes they didn't start them and they aren't the only ones but I still think BSN plays an important part in the narrative of equality and fair treatment of all gamers

I don't even... Please explain why you are objecting to what I am saying. I don't want to assume

Comment later, I would like to hear your view

You funny Monte My perspective on social justice issues and what change I can effect is reasonable. There are no contradictions in my logic despite what you are alluding to I don't see why appreciation of the female form and appreciation of aesthetics means I can't say I take social justice issues seriously? Let me ask you something. Why if I go to a strip club does that mean I can't say I am opposed to Sexism? I can't offer those strippers a job and I can't fund there lifestyle choices. But I support the fact that they have free choice in what job they are doing. As long as the strippers aren't victims of human trafficking who am I to judge them?

Interesting perspective, I agree that the issue of bigotry is much more nuanced than some developer saying " look everyone, in this game we have a female and African American character. You can see how committed we are to transformation and addressing the social injustices of the past" This is going to make no difference to what certain people really think or behave in private but are they target market for these types of social initiatives? I think these types of campaigns are aimed more at a moderate and reasonable audience I think that gaming is one medium that you can get a certain message across and set a certain narrative. Think about just 7 years ago, the thought of homosexual Romance options in games was unheard of. Now Bioware has bravely and correctly changed this design in the interests of inclusivity. Nowadays its really not acceptable to go to most forums and make comments like " gay people must burn in the fires of hell and the only good gay person is a dead gay person" So even though homophobia is still practised and prevalent in certain countries the narrative and type of bigoted comments are just not acceptable in many countries and on many places in the Internet. This is a progressive and appreciated change for me and this example applies to all other forms of discrimination So in summary I think gaming can raise awareness around real social justice issues. It can't necessarily change a persons personal views or the real suffering of the indigent but it doesn't have to. Its just about the message that hopefully resonates with people. Once people believe in the message than they can decide on there own what they want to do next. And maybe they will want to work part time in a soup kitchen?

The whole " generic white man rescuing bikini clad babes" is more symbolic, I don't think its meant to be taken literally?

You miss the point Bruce. The swear words he uses don't faze me. So no, I'm not so sensitive that if someone uses **** online that it offends me. It doesn't. However, as I said it may offend others. If other people are offended and can't get past the first paragraph, then he's lost readers. And the author using such words are not doing themselves any favours by using them when more effective words can be used. It comes across as a childish rant and lazy writing. And it's not about having a thick skin. I have a pretty think skin myself. It's about presentation. The article could have been written better without all the shouting and have had a more dramatic impact with the readers. And being online, do you think it appropriate that someone who makes any type of presentation, written or even video, that shouting at the audience is an effective way of communication? For instance, would people who follow Anita Sarkeesian like it if she ranted and shouted at her audience? I mean in your words, "What happened to the importance of free speech and having a thick skin?" When I see such articles, full of vitriol, swearing and shouting, I just zone out and move on. I'm not offended by it, I just can't be bothered reading it. If it was presented better, I would have read it all. Oh and you don't mind people shouting at you? If someone was shouting at you, you would just stand there and be okay with it? I mean, in your words, What happened to the importance of free speech and having a thick skin? I do find it funny you would compare this article to RPG Codex. I am now of the opinion that this article is not going to achieve its desired result because of how the message is being conveyed. So you make some good points around the whole belligerence of the author and the bad first impression he makes, but I did say "you need to get past the first paragraph" But for me I try to question the message, in other words " Attack the Argument, Not the Person" So I am more interested in what he is saying than the fact he is shouting ( but yes this can be annoying and counterproductive )

I feel an intense yearning to not read this article. Please read it objectively, I want your input. I may not always agree with you on topics but I respect your intellectual contribution towards many subjects

I have to honest, I was perhaps a bit premature to say the article was "excellent" I do find it interesting and it does raise good points but I am also finding several flaws in the writers thinking process am gonna concede that as a minority in America, we has gotten damn tired o' having to deal with the race "issue" all the freaking time. we, perhaps naively, did not take advantage o' affirmative action opportunities when looking to gain admittance to university, or when looking to pay for education. were stupid o' us in retrospect, but we didn't want to be defined by race. every time an acquaintance would make a remotely racist comment and then suddenly pull up short and kinda peak at us sidelong to see if we were offended, we would indeed be offended, but not so much by the slur. example heard last week: "f***ers can become a super power overnight, but they can't even get the starch in my shirts right." colleague makes a silly off-hand quip about his chinese launderer. comment were dumb, but why the hell should he look at Gromnir as if checking to see if we were angry? it does piss us off more than a little that we gotta constant deal with race... everywhere. yeah, when we go into a hardware store and we see shop owner keeping a particular close eye on us to make sure we don't steal nothing, we has eye-roll moment. is little moments o' racism we deal with all the time. perhaps we should be more concerned. however, if we never had to see discussions/debates o' race or sex in games, we would be relieved. yeah, it may be more relevant than Gromnir wishes it to be, but we got more than a stomach full o' such bile. HA! Good Fun! That's a interesting post, thanks for sharing some of your personal views on these matter as it adds relevant context Are you saying that at times in your experience there is an over-sensitivity towards race, for example people worried that you take offense about jokes. But then there are cases where racism is real, like the shop owner incident? But end of the day you don't feel racism is an issue in Video games or needs to highlighted as much as it is?

I couldn't finish it either. It came across as a bit of a mindless rant with a lot of shouting. Note to the author: If you want to get your point across, SHOUTING at your audience doesn't help. And while **** may not seem like a swear word to some people, others may find it offensive. Other words can be used instead with dramatic effect and may have more of an impact to readers without offending anyone. I never knew you were so sensitive Hiro? I have had debates with people on these forums about offensive and unacceptable comments on websites like RPGCodex, for example people joking about rape, and was told " its the Internet, people must learn to have thick skins" But now this one article seems to have created such outrage because the author is deemed to be shouting? What happened to the importance of free speech and having a thick skin?

But guess the actual score, that's much harder No thanks. I only do that when I am over-undering or betting (against) the spread. Ah, okay. Makes sense

You're okay with the guy playing hero and rescuing babes in bikinis? I'll direct you to this site: Tropes vs Women in Video Games That's a good link, but no I'm not necessarily saying that rescuing babes in bikinis is wrong or right I'm saying that there are several reasons why someone may play a game like this and its not all about someone being juvenile

I have to honest, I was perhaps a bit premature to say the article was "excellent" I do find it interesting and it does raise good points but I am also finding several flaws in the writers thinking process

Final scores France vs Nigeria: 1-0 Germany vs Algeria 2-1

Holy Smoke, Ice-Cream flavoured Tabasco !!! I love Tabasco and I use the standard 4-5 flavours regularly. How many different flavours did you see?

But guess the actual score, that's much harder

My prediction on real goals scored was 100 % correct again ( yes I got the penalty shootouts wrong but my psychic abilities only extend so far )

So, no more 'dark' settings then? That's a good point Malc, his statement doesn't make sense. And in fact could inhibit the creative process around gaming. Because what is the definition of "oppressive", its subjective

What points don't you agree with? Good question, he mentions for example "forgettable white guy shooting people in the face and rescusing babes in bikinis. Nobody is going to take that Dionysian joy away from you, except yourself, when you grow up" I think he is generalizing and simplifying why people play certain games. What's wrong with playing a game just for the entertainment factor? Everything doesn't have to be a about a statement. Also its condescending to suggest that people who play certain games are juvenile. The mindless entertainment could be a way escapism from the pressures of RL so we shouldn't judge

I'm sure your training schedule is a factor in that type of fatigue