BruceVC

Yeah Elerond summarized it nicely, by the way Elerond you know a lot about polygamy..how many wives do you actually have ?

See, that's the part that pisses me off in this thread. Someone is sincerely suggesting something constructive, like the marriage option, and then Bruce pretends to get their point but ultimately just falls back to 'promancers gonna promance like they always did, herp a derp'. Just because it is not immersive for you doesn't mean it's not for other people. Just because some bad romance is immersive for you, it doesn't mean it is for other people. Speak for yourselve all day long if you want, but please stop with this hypocrisy of claiming what is acceptable for a romance for a group of people while at the same time criticizing people for stating their personal levels of acceptance for a romance, just because they don't want one. For what it's worth, romance involves building a connection for the player, yes, but that's about it. There is no magical checklist to achieve that, it either works or it doesn't. If you need to constantly look at a sprite and have same badly written dialogue with them to achieve that, good for you. But you shouldn't pretend that it's the only way. Sometimes it's better to show less and let imagination do its part. You pretend you want deep relationships, but every single suggestion about them that excludes the feely-touchy part, like long distance-marriage or a couple of old people is denied by you. That's superficial at best. In the end, all I get from your posts is that you want some hot chicks running around with you, where you have the option to get them into bed. And that is ok per se, but don't pretend to care for deep relationships if it is looks before everything else to you. Wowzers dude, no need to get so worked up. Its just a debate around Romance. I am worried that you are actually getting pissed off because I am disagreeing with a certain view, how do you react in RL when someone has a real argument with you? With all due respects this is a discussion around Romance and the merits of Romance in RPG. There isn't a single implementation of Romance in any RPG I know of where the Romance implementation doesn't involve interacting with someone that you can actually see. Now you can disagree with me but that's just the reality. And if the marriage idea involves a scenario where you never see your Romance partner because its a wife at home where I can't initiate some dialogue the RP experience will obviously be diluted, and I doubt this will ever be considered an acceptable form of Romance? I am sure it will have other advantages but I feel its a stretch to call it Romance because once again Romance involves interacting with the person? So in summary the marriage idea is a good idea but not as a substitute for Romance.

Good question, the abhorrent bill that was passed, and now overturned, was criminalizing the act of consensual same sex. Not the idea of being attracted to someone of the same sex which as you mentioned would be impossible to enforce

You see Volo this is the reason people get frustrated with your comments, you used the words "plenty" I asked you to give examples of this, it was a perfectly logical question and you refuse to answer? So for any reasonable person what this means is you won't answer because there aren't plenty of examples and instead of admitting you are wrong you just chose to ignore the question? You are an intelligent person so I'm sure you can see why this type of debating etiquette is counterproductive ?

. You guys have made me think about another Romance arc that will add to the realism of a Romance implementation The basis of this Romance idea is you can't Romance someone if they haven't been in your party a while because how would feelings develop realistically if they haven't developed over time, so for example if you keep changing party characters it would be hard to build Romance with new members But to add to this your chance of Romance would increase if the party faces certain epic challengers together. So take Firkraag, at the end of the battle when the party is recovering and resting in a Tavern or around a campfire someone that you have been particularly friendly with through previous dialog choices, like Viconia, would initiate a discussion with comments like "facing that Dragon made me realize what is important to me...life is too short to not be happy " ( obviously I'm not a writer so this is just an example ) , but the point is the Romance only starts if she is in the party a while and you have faced certain death before I believe this would make the Romance less contrived and definitely more believable. And this seems to be one of the issues people have with Romance, previous implementations are just not believable? I know this is an old post but i do like the idea and think its a step in the right direction of the perwon having to be in ur party for awhile before romance can even begin etc. have it set up like arcades quest in fonv but have it only proc after an event happens instead of just visiting an area. Also u could add respect values so that u could "earn" respect from party members and could through same actions for both camps so that they cpukd earn respect (comradery) and same token IF they CHOSE form a romance with said party member. the romance of course has its own setup which i dont think needs to be explained but the respect...earn enough respect and someone who has a strong view point on something will eventually respect u enough to "agree to disagree" and remain on good terms or stick up for u if getting bashed by a party member due to ur choice going against their views. You know instead of asking FOR romance to be implemented, i think we shoukd come up with ways HOW romance could be implemented. You've raised some good points, some I agree with and some I don't. I'll respond in bullet form and each point from me correlates to one of your points. Also my idea for Romance, which I posted above, aligns to some of your points Passage time : This is the easiest to mitigate, people can "fall in love " on first sight. Time is not always a factor for feelings to develop. Also some RPG take place over years like DA2 Fights and marriages : I don't marriage is a good idea in RPG, I was just trying to understand what others were saying. So we agree on this Cheating : I agree, as I said Romance in a RPG should be subjected to the same risks as RL Romance and cheating can be considered. So we agree on this This didn't work out! : Not sure how this would be implemented because the dialogue options to justify "not working out" would require immense work. So I don't see this as practical even though realistc You're ugly : Not an issue because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But there should be chance based on Charisma maybe ( or other relevant attribute ) that Romance fails. I also mentioned this so we agree on this Bros before Ho's : Not an issue because the party travels and faces death together, so there should be ample attention to your prospective Romance partner You're a lousy lover : RPG are not a sex game, so this would be over analysing the sexual part of Romance implementation and require immense and wasted resources to somehow address this

Come on Volo, you do make good points at times but this type of comment makes it very hard to believe that you are not trolling But instead of assuming what you mean can you give me examples of good CRPG that exist on consoles?

Guys since we are discussing misunderstandings in each others posts I thought this would be a good time to say "I really like Romance in RPG"...I just wanted to make this clear in case there was any doubt or ambiguity..I don't want people to misinterpret my views

Yeah, we will see. But this one is "different", brokered by Egypt and suppose to last 72 hours so hopefully it will be adhered to?

While traversing Ancient haunted crypts filled with Flesh rotting Ghasts? (Ie. the example of mine that you're attempting to counter)? Aaah. No they don't. Except maybe in poorly written Bioware fantasies. This I do agree with. However, this is exactly what Bioware romances is not. They are contrived and feels out of place. They aren't integrated into the storyline. They feel like a stalker mini-game, artificially added to the game. The Morrigan romance in DA:O was well written and was a natural part of the game. Zevran was amusing when I played as a female warden. All the rest of the "romances" in DA:O, in Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3, not to mention the travesty of a game that was DA2, made my toes cringe. So if Josh Sawyer want to make something better than that, I applaud it. And if it's between the typical Bioware romance and no romance, I'll take the no romance option any day. You guys have made me think about another Romance arc that will add to the realism of a Romance implementation The basis of this Romance idea is you can't Romance someone if they haven't been in your party a while because how would feelings develop realistically if they haven't developed over time, so for example if you keep changing party characters it would be hard to build Romance with new members But to add to this your chance of Romance would increase if the party faces certain epic challengers together. So take Firkraag, at the end of the battle when the party is recovering and resting in a Tavern or around a campfire someone that you have been particularly friendly with through previous dialog choices, like Viconia, would initiate a discussion with comments like "facing that Dragon made me realize what is important to me...life is too short to not be happy " ( obviously I'm not a writer so this is just an example ) , but the point is the Romance only starts if she is in the party a while and you have faced certain death before I believe this would make the Romance less contrived and definitely more believable. And this seems to be one of the issues people have with Romance, previous implementations are just not believable? I know this is an old post but i do like the idea and think its a step in the right direction of the perwon having to be in ur party for awhile before romance can even begin etc. have it set up like arcades quest in fonv but have it only proc after an event happens instead of just visiting an area. Also u could add respect values so that u could "earn" respect from party members and could through same actions for both camps so that they cpukd earn respect (comradery) and same token IF they CHOSE form a romance with said party member. the romance of course has its own setup which i dont think needs to be explained but the respect...earn enough respect and someone who has a strong view point on something will eventually respect u enough to "agree to disagree" and remain on good terms or stick up for u if getting bashed by a party member due to ur choice going against their views. You know instead of asking FOR romance to be implemented, i think we shoukd come up with ways HOW romance could be implemented. Thanks, I am surprised more people didn't agree with my post. I thought I had found a nice balance between realism and the reasons why Romance would develop in a party

No I understood exactly what he was suggesting but I was trying to find some compromise. I get people don't want Bioware Romance, I get people want more realistic Romance, I get people want Romance that isn't juvenile but I don't get a suggestion around Romance that doesn't actually involve interacting with someone. And that's ultimately what the marriage Romance suggestion is. This wouldn't be acceptable for most promancers for reasons I mentioned. Romance involves seeing someone and having dialogue options with them, if you can't do this there is no real connection. It kind of defeats the point of Romance and the immersive side of the Romance interaction don't you think?

Well actually you are reinforcing my point unintentionally, but I also didn't explain properly. Israel is isolated as far as the Middle East countries are concerned. But part of this support of Israel from the West is exactly because its not an Islamic country. There is an interesting part of history, that most people aren't aware of, that occurred in the 1970's where basically OPEC decided to create an oil embargo against most Western countries, this decision by OPEC could have had the most serious economic consequences for Western countries that they have ever faced because back then there was no real alternative to oil. This link provides a good summary of the dynamics of the situation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis

Really? That's your argument? I'm pretty sure the main demographic for video games is central europe, north-america and australia. I don't know of any culture there where prearranged marriages or honour killings are part of. Also, what's up with the assumption that every party member should be single in the first place? If you want your realism in a medieval world and not just some 20th century with swords and magic, given the life expectancy, most people are probably married by the time they join your party, especially if they are usually not a full time adventurer. I argue that in most settings it's probably more logical and realistic if your party members are married, so romance makes no sense. Feel free to bring some counterarguments. Speaking as a young married man, I have to say that the inability to cast yourself as a married person(even if your spouse is never depicted in the game and remains abstract) is a little unfortunate. Or as a widow/widower if that's more convenient and economical from a writing standpoint. I don't think this would be applicable because Romance is optional, so I'm battling understand why you would want to be married in a RPG but never meet your wife or have no interaction with her? If this is a reason to not Romance then the solution should be to just not follow any Romance options? As Namutree said, I was envisioning a biographical option more than anything else. I find it a little odd that of all the possible relationship statuses(or lack thereof) you have to choose from in games, married is never one. I'd imagine that a large(decent?) portion of the people playing the game are married, so it's an easy thing to relate to. The letter idea is actually a good one if anybody cared to flesh it out to that point. Anybody who's read letters between spouses knows that they can easily be very touching, and it's economical from a resource standpoint. It's much harder to depict two people FALLING in love(and one would necessarily question why you would even try unless that was the central part of the story you're telling) rather than in a constant state. I don't like romances in games(or literature, for that matter) because I don't think they're well written. That isn't to say that the people who have to write them aren't good writers, but that it's really, really hard to do it well in any medium other than film or non-fiction writing. The only romance I've seen in any game that was worth paying attention to was Jaheira in Baldur's Gate 2 and Throne of Bhaal. It was straight faced enough to be pretty believeable. You make some good points around the whole marriage option in a RPG. Its worth considering, the only criticism I would have is Romance in a RPG is normally about interaction with a party member that is part of your adventure and you can see. This makes the Romance person more believable and whole RP experience more real as there is some kind of emotional connection. So why don't we combine the best of both worlds, we have Romance options but also the option to get married? Or is that taking it too far ?

Speaking as a young married man, I have to say that the inability to cast yourself as a married person(even if your spouse is never depicted in the game and remains abstract) is a little unfortunate. Or as a widow/widower if that's more convenient and economical from a writing standpoint. I don't think this would be applicable because Romance is optional, so I'm battling understand why you would want to be married in a RPG but never meet your wife or have no interaction with her? If this is a reason to not Romance then the solution should be to just not follow any Romance options? It , "I've got a wife/husband back home." So basically because someone is miserable in RL with there marriage you want to replicate that same feeling to an RPG experience in a game.....that's cold man.,..thats cold

This post made me laugh, especially the first line Well played

This is actually the truth, there is no Jewish conspiracy. No "Jews controlling the USA", despite what conspiracy theorists will tell you. Yes of course there are Jewish lobbyists who have some influence in the USA like all lobbyist groups but the main reason the West seems to align itself with Israel is really around ideological reasons and the fact that Israel is an ally to the USA and other countries when it comes to the Middle East. Remember there was a time where the Middle East was relatively united and decided to use oil production to influence a certain political agenda. Israel is the bulwark to this type of Middle Eastern alliance, and since oil still controls economies the West has to protect its allies

Yeah I share your sentiment on this matter 100 %, I'll get my RPG Romances from DA:I so its no big deal if PoE doesn't have them. Also Witcher 3 will have Romance

No offense to the BHM fans but to me its just a gimmick. I don't see the point but if it enhances your RPG experience or makes the game more immersive somehow then that's great

Yeah those are true facts, there is a whole section on the tour around Kitcheners pal brigades. The 88 % is an overall statistic

Care to give some empiric evidence for this claim? I don't think anyone wants party interaction that are on the same level as bioware romance. I'm pretty sure the same standards apply for both, it's just easier to achieve a good party interaction because it is not so dependent on the behavior of the player. Well the evidence is the constant scrutiny from people that don't feel Romance is applicable in a RPG? We constantly hear comments like " if Romance is not done properly then I don't want it all" This becomes very subjective and difficult to gauge "what is proper Romance " But yes we can improve on Bioware Romance, I do obviously like Bioware Romance but you guys have made me realize there are ways to make it more realistic

Really? That's your argument? I'm pretty sure the main demographic for video games is central europe, north-america and australia. I don't know of any culture there where prearranged marriages or honour killings are part of. Also, what's up with the assumption that every party member should be single in the first place? If you want your realism in a medieval world and not just some 20th century with swords and magic, given the life expectancy, most people are probably married by the time they join your party, especially if they are usually not a full time adventurer. I argue that in most settings it's probably more logical and realistic if your party members are married, so romance makes no sense. Feel free to bring some counterarguments. Speaking as a young married man, I have to say that the inability to cast yourself as a married person(even if your spouse is never depicted in the game and remains abstract) is a little unfortunate. Or as a widow/widower if that's more convenient and economical from a writing standpoint. I don't think this would be applicable because Romance is optional, so I'm battling understand why you would want to be married in a RPG but never meet your wife or have no interaction with her? If this is a reason to not Romance then the solution should be to just not follow any Romance options?

I apologize, I thought I did answer these questions I can't comment on this point because in my game I did Romance someone so the mood on the Normandy was normal. And I didn't think the writing was impacted negatively by the Romance, but I'm not an expert on the ME series as I only played each game once and thought they were enjoyable, not fantastic I agree, we can do better around Romance and make them more realistic and believable. Based on suggestions in these types of discussions I would like Romance to not to be automatic based on silly presents but a concerted effort from the player and also based on the personal struggles you have with a particular Romance partner, like surviving a dangerous dungeon or deadly end boss monster. The Romance arc should grow as the game goes on and there should be a chance of a fail or a break-up. So basically like a RL Romance And I also agree Deionarra was a very poignant and believable Romance

Well said, those are very wise words. An interesting statistic that the last part of the tour mentions. In almost all the books about WW1 I have read they talk about WW1 having a devastating impact to the generation of young men who went to fight, in fact it is regularly mentioned that the Great War lead to a "lost generation" But 88% of the men who went to fight came back, the tour specifically mentions from a UK perspective this concept of a " lost generation" is exaggerated. It doesn't diminish the horrors of the war and social changes that the world went through. Just the fact that a whole generation of men were not wiped out, I didn't know that

Okay guys, I have just returned from the Imperial War Museum and the new WW1 exhibition and all I can say is that it is the best tour in a museum I have ever been on in my life . It was evocative, interesting and very well designed. You obviously start at 1914 and progress through a series of rooms till the end at 1918. I have NEVER been so entertained on a historical tour. For people who live in London you have to go, they also had a whole lot of vintage cars outside the museum that you can take pictures of and ask questions about I am in absolute awe of the Imperial War Museum and the effort they put in, my own country can learn so much about how you can display your countries contribution towards important historical events like WW1. Well done London, you have done your veterans of the Great War proud as this is really a remembrance and tribute to them I was talking to one of the staff at the museum and he said a small number of people complained that there "was too much information in the WW1 tour for them to understand " ......WTF.....too much information !!!! You can never have too much information around these types of events. Especially where everything you read is optional Anyway as I said, those that can go...you must go

You make a very compelling argument and one that I have tried to raise before but you have articulated it better than I have done in the past In summary "why do we seem to insist that Romance in RPG is held to much higher standard than other types of party interaction, why do we demand Romance realism but we are happy with other unrealistic types of party connections " So for me this is used by some people to dismiss Romance entirely, its a justification because they don't want or like Romance. They aren't really concerned with a " realistic " Romance implementation. They just don't want Romance at all

It's a computer game. You have 3 options, One option he stays alive, the other two he dies. That's not realism. You wouldn't kill a person in real life or convince someone to commit suicide. Or would you Bruce? Okay I see the point you boys are making, I suppose it depends on what culture you live in. We know for a fact that even in our modern age prearranged marriages and honour killings exist. So for some people the choices in DA 2 may not seem that absurd. And it doesn't mean I support this but people getting killed because of scorned love does happen