BruceVC

I consider myself open minded when it comes to Romance suggestions but e-mails in a fantasy RPG? That's going to be a hard one for people to buy into? I'm sure it would destroy the realism of the fantasy vibe

Guys I have mentioned this before but if you like your horror series you must start watching The Strain, it really is brilliant. Also I started watching Third Watch again, its an old cop show, started in 1999, but very good. I am only on season 1 and I did most watch most of it years ago but its highly recommended

Well played, just the fact she wants to see you again is always a good thing, Keep us updated

I agree with this sentiment, just because a person says "I am excited about DA:I " doesn't mean you think Bioware is faultless or previous games can't be improved on. The reality is millions of people are excited about DA:I but they are hoping its an improvement to DA 2. Its not a weird opinion or expectation

"fanatical and religious " Oh Volo you do make laugh

Guys this is why I tend to like Lephys posts, its his ability to articulate a point and his reasonable logic This post summarizes my objections to the letter as the only medium of Romance, now you'll notice I said "only". I didn't say the letter concept cannot be used as another form of interaction or inherently its a bad idea. But Lephys does raise some valid structural problems around the letter, so I won't say anything more on this topic @ Namutree I'll be honest, I have the most concerns when I think of you thinking the letter can replace traditional Romance implementations. With your modding skills we have the opportunity to create more realistic and engaging Romance like we discussed and most of us ultimately want. In other words no " Bioware Romances only ". I don't want you to focus energy only on something that is one dimensional. But I know this is not what you saying as you have already said the letter can be used in tangent with other things

You naughty, you know that ?

Not this trip but the next time I'll come across and come say hi to you, 2 years ago I was in Belgium and Netherlands but I didn't know you back then

Actually, I'm not as worked up as it may have sounded to you. Thankfully, I don't know anyone who is trolling as hard as you in RL, so I don't know what I'd do in a real argument with them. This is also largely irrelevant to the given topic. And no, I'm not pissed off because of your opinion. Your opinion is fine (however twisted it may be) and you are entitled to it. What is not fine for me, however, is making broad generalizations based on your own opinion what people want in romances, what works for them and that you always derail discussions to your notion of a romance, in particular in other threads than this one. I think there are quite some people on this forum that would like to see a tasteful implementation of romance. However, as soon as we are stepping out of bioware style romance to discuss the merit of doing things different (removing the sexual component or removing direct feedback), you try to make the implementation sound implausible in order to further beat a dead horse and that's hurting the discussion. Your argument is basically 'it's different as the stuff I'm used to, so it must be a bad romance'. You obviously like the way it has been done before, and that's fine, but everyone knows this by now, so you are actively blocking any progress on the topic in this thread. I'm sure you are a nice person, but you are not understanding anyone if you say you understand them and ignore their arguments anyway. I'm not even arguing you should stop commenting, I'm just arguing you should stop speaking for other people. The majority of people who commented on the issue preferred the marriage idea to the usual romance. No need to worry, I have no intention of not commenting But your characterization of me and how I dismiss any opinion different to mine in simply not true. In fact I have admitted several times that Bioware Romances can be improved on, I have acknowledged we need more realistic Romances, I have said we need Romances that allow for fails and break-ups and I have suggested a Romance arc that builds over time but should only be feasible if the party faces real challengers together...basically an emotional connection through adversity. None of these follow the normal Romance implementation. But yes I have an issue with a Romance suggestion that doesn't involve actually interacting with a character, sorry but that's just how I feel. But I am not the judge and jury of what constitutes acceptable Romance. This is merely my opinion, but I would wager a bet that other promancers will agree with me? And I don't troll, this is my opinion and I am more than prepared to have a mature debate around what works and doesn't around Romance

Am I the only one who thinks Kim Kardashian is really hot ?

Okay thanks for responding, but I don't think people are trolling in this discussion. They seem to be disagreeing with you and challenging your opinion? That's the foundation of debate isn't it and what we expect from a forum?

It seems I am one of the few people on these forums who really enjoys Bioware games, but I do prefer the older Bioware games more than the newer ones. BG 2 is my favourite RPG of all time. DA:O was good fun but not as good as BG2, saying all that I do have high hopes for DA:I. I think you guys will be pleasantly surprised when it is released, something tells me its not going to disappoint

Yeah Elerond summarized it nicely, by the way Elerond you know a lot about polygamy..how many wives do you actually have ? Why do you presume that they are (only) wives? I researched subject little bit when helped with equal marriage civil bill campaign in here Finland, because allowance of polygamy marriage is thing that always rises on surface when one speaks about allowance of same-sex marriage, so I though it's probably better know at least little bit about subject. In South Africa our constitution allows same sex marriages but we call it civil unions, but its basically the exact same thing. Its one of the things I am very proud of as a South African because we have lots of other social issues we need to deal with In Finland do you guys allow same sex marriages? Currently in Finland it is possible for same-sex couples to register themselves to be in civil union, such unions don't have all the same rights (some economical things, changing sure name to your spouse's needs separate application [which isn't free], adoption rights as couple, etc.) as civil marriages, which is why there was campaign for civil bill that would make all civil unions to be same in eyes of law. Bill is currently in Finnish Parliament, which will vote about bill in September. Okay thanks for explaining, well hopefully the Finnish government will pass this bill and give truly equal right to same sex marriages

Well this is one point we clearly won't agree on. As I mentioned numerous times an irrefutable part of all previous Romance implementations is seeing the person and the interaction that entails. This is a foundation of Romance and the suggestion that this expectation is actually juvenile is just silly. Its like saying "we don't need to actually explore the dungeon or crypt to make it a worthwhile and exciting RP experience, we will just look at a map of the dungeon and the monsters will appear" Its not the same experience, sorry Nonek. And no amount of spin will change that. But once again lets bring marriage in as a type of interaction but not as a replacement for Romance?

Yeah Elerond summarized it nicely, by the way Elerond you know a lot about polygamy..how many wives do you actually have ? Why do you presume that they are (only) wives? I researched subject little bit when helped with equal marriage civil bill campaign in here Finland, because allowance of polygamy marriage is thing that always rises on surface when one speaks about allowance of same-sex marriage, so I though it's probably better know at least little bit about subject. In South Africa our constitution allows same sex marriages but we call it civil unions, but its basically the exact same thing. Its one of the things I am very proud of as a South African because we have lots of other social issues we need to deal with In Finland do you guys allow same sex marriages?

Yeah Elerond summarized it nicely, by the way Elerond you know a lot about polygamy..how many wives do you actually have ?

See, that's the part that pisses me off in this thread. Someone is sincerely suggesting something constructive, like the marriage option, and then Bruce pretends to get their point but ultimately just falls back to 'promancers gonna promance like they always did, herp a derp'. Just because it is not immersive for you doesn't mean it's not for other people. Just because some bad romance is immersive for you, it doesn't mean it is for other people. Speak for yourselve all day long if you want, but please stop with this hypocrisy of claiming what is acceptable for a romance for a group of people while at the same time criticizing people for stating their personal levels of acceptance for a romance, just because they don't want one. For what it's worth, romance involves building a connection for the player, yes, but that's about it. There is no magical checklist to achieve that, it either works or it doesn't. If you need to constantly look at a sprite and have same badly written dialogue with them to achieve that, good for you. But you shouldn't pretend that it's the only way. Sometimes it's better to show less and let imagination do its part. You pretend you want deep relationships, but every single suggestion about them that excludes the feely-touchy part, like long distance-marriage or a couple of old people is denied by you. That's superficial at best. In the end, all I get from your posts is that you want some hot chicks running around with you, where you have the option to get them into bed. And that is ok per se, but don't pretend to care for deep relationships if it is looks before everything else to you. Wowzers dude, no need to get so worked up. Its just a debate around Romance. I am worried that you are actually getting pissed off because I am disagreeing with a certain view, how do you react in RL when someone has a real argument with you? With all due respects this is a discussion around Romance and the merits of Romance in RPG. There isn't a single implementation of Romance in any RPG I know of where the Romance implementation doesn't involve interacting with someone that you can actually see. Now you can disagree with me but that's just the reality. And if the marriage idea involves a scenario where you never see your Romance partner because its a wife at home where I can't initiate some dialogue the RP experience will obviously be diluted, and I doubt this will ever be considered an acceptable form of Romance? I am sure it will have other advantages but I feel its a stretch to call it Romance because once again Romance involves interacting with the person? So in summary the marriage idea is a good idea but not as a substitute for Romance.

Good question, the abhorrent bill that was passed, and now overturned, was criminalizing the act of consensual same sex. Not the idea of being attracted to someone of the same sex which as you mentioned would be impossible to enforce

You see Volo this is the reason people get frustrated with your comments, you used the words "plenty" I asked you to give examples of this, it was a perfectly logical question and you refuse to answer? So for any reasonable person what this means is you won't answer because there aren't plenty of examples and instead of admitting you are wrong you just chose to ignore the question? You are an intelligent person so I'm sure you can see why this type of debating etiquette is counterproductive ?

. You guys have made me think about another Romance arc that will add to the realism of a Romance implementation The basis of this Romance idea is you can't Romance someone if they haven't been in your party a while because how would feelings develop realistically if they haven't developed over time, so for example if you keep changing party characters it would be hard to build Romance with new members But to add to this your chance of Romance would increase if the party faces certain epic challengers together. So take Firkraag, at the end of the battle when the party is recovering and resting in a Tavern or around a campfire someone that you have been particularly friendly with through previous dialog choices, like Viconia, would initiate a discussion with comments like "facing that Dragon made me realize what is important to me...life is too short to not be happy " ( obviously I'm not a writer so this is just an example ) , but the point is the Romance only starts if she is in the party a while and you have faced certain death before I believe this would make the Romance less contrived and definitely more believable. And this seems to be one of the issues people have with Romance, previous implementations are just not believable? I know this is an old post but i do like the idea and think its a step in the right direction of the perwon having to be in ur party for awhile before romance can even begin etc. have it set up like arcades quest in fonv but have it only proc after an event happens instead of just visiting an area. Also u could add respect values so that u could "earn" respect from party members and could through same actions for both camps so that they cpukd earn respect (comradery) and same token IF they CHOSE form a romance with said party member. the romance of course has its own setup which i dont think needs to be explained but the respect...earn enough respect and someone who has a strong view point on something will eventually respect u enough to "agree to disagree" and remain on good terms or stick up for u if getting bashed by a party member due to ur choice going against their views. You know instead of asking FOR romance to be implemented, i think we shoukd come up with ways HOW romance could be implemented. You've raised some good points, some I agree with and some I don't. I'll respond in bullet form and each point from me correlates to one of your points. Also my idea for Romance, which I posted above, aligns to some of your points Passage time : This is the easiest to mitigate, people can "fall in love " on first sight. Time is not always a factor for feelings to develop. Also some RPG take place over years like DA2 Fights and marriages : I don't marriage is a good idea in RPG, I was just trying to understand what others were saying. So we agree on this Cheating : I agree, as I said Romance in a RPG should be subjected to the same risks as RL Romance and cheating can be considered. So we agree on this This didn't work out! : Not sure how this would be implemented because the dialogue options to justify "not working out" would require immense work. So I don't see this as practical even though realistc You're ugly : Not an issue because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But there should be chance based on Charisma maybe ( or other relevant attribute ) that Romance fails. I also mentioned this so we agree on this Bros before Ho's : Not an issue because the party travels and faces death together, so there should be ample attention to your prospective Romance partner You're a lousy lover : RPG are not a sex game, so this would be over analysing the sexual part of Romance implementation and require immense and wasted resources to somehow address this

Come on Volo, you do make good points at times but this type of comment makes it very hard to believe that you are not trolling But instead of assuming what you mean can you give me examples of good CRPG that exist on consoles?

Guys since we are discussing misunderstandings in each others posts I thought this would be a good time to say "I really like Romance in RPG"...I just wanted to make this clear in case there was any doubt or ambiguity..I don't want people to misinterpret my views

Yeah, we will see. But this one is "different", brokered by Egypt and suppose to last 72 hours so hopefully it will be adhered to?

While traversing Ancient haunted crypts filled with Flesh rotting Ghasts? (Ie. the example of mine that you're attempting to counter)? Aaah. No they don't. Except maybe in poorly written Bioware fantasies. This I do agree with. However, this is exactly what Bioware romances is not. They are contrived and feels out of place. They aren't integrated into the storyline. They feel like a stalker mini-game, artificially added to the game. The Morrigan romance in DA:O was well written and was a natural part of the game. Zevran was amusing when I played as a female warden. All the rest of the "romances" in DA:O, in Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3, not to mention the travesty of a game that was DA2, made my toes cringe. So if Josh Sawyer want to make something better than that, I applaud it. And if it's between the typical Bioware romance and no romance, I'll take the no romance option any day. You guys have made me think about another Romance arc that will add to the realism of a Romance implementation The basis of this Romance idea is you can't Romance someone if they haven't been in your party a while because how would feelings develop realistically if they haven't developed over time, so for example if you keep changing party characters it would be hard to build Romance with new members But to add to this your chance of Romance would increase if the party faces certain epic challengers together. So take Firkraag, at the end of the battle when the party is recovering and resting in a Tavern or around a campfire someone that you have been particularly friendly with through previous dialog choices, like Viconia, would initiate a discussion with comments like "facing that Dragon made me realize what is important to me...life is too short to not be happy " ( obviously I'm not a writer so this is just an example ) , but the point is the Romance only starts if she is in the party a while and you have faced certain death before I believe this would make the Romance less contrived and definitely more believable. And this seems to be one of the issues people have with Romance, previous implementations are just not believable? I know this is an old post but i do like the idea and think its a step in the right direction of the perwon having to be in ur party for awhile before romance can even begin etc. have it set up like arcades quest in fonv but have it only proc after an event happens instead of just visiting an area. Also u could add respect values so that u could "earn" respect from party members and could through same actions for both camps so that they cpukd earn respect (comradery) and same token IF they CHOSE form a romance with said party member. the romance of course has its own setup which i dont think needs to be explained but the respect...earn enough respect and someone who has a strong view point on something will eventually respect u enough to "agree to disagree" and remain on good terms or stick up for u if getting bashed by a party member due to ur choice going against their views. You know instead of asking FOR romance to be implemented, i think we shoukd come up with ways HOW romance could be implemented. Thanks, I am surprised more people didn't agree with my post. I thought I had found a nice balance between realism and the reasons why Romance would develop in a party

No I understood exactly what he was suggesting but I was trying to find some compromise. I get people don't want Bioware Romance, I get people want more realistic Romance, I get people want Romance that isn't juvenile but I don't get a suggestion around Romance that doesn't actually involve interacting with someone. And that's ultimately what the marriage Romance suggestion is. This wouldn't be acceptable for most promancers for reasons I mentioned. Romance involves seeing someone and having dialogue options with them, if you can't do this there is no real connection. It kind of defeats the point of Romance and the immersive side of the Romance interaction don't you think?