BruceVC

I must be misunderstanding, are you saying this type of event, which is clamping down on freedom of expression , is common in Western countries? I think he means celebrity images being co-opted into memes is so common, the fact that one was made and a celebrity didn't like it wouldn't make the news. You clever Amentep, I think that is exactly what he meant. It makes sense

This is classic...very funny To be honest I would have no issue living in a world dominated by women like this picture...as long as they hot

I dunno if you're trying to be funny, but that is exactly what Christianity has done for centuries. Exactly my point! And theres absolutely nothing wrong with that as they were once themselves discriminated against. Its so simple. No Gfted1 I think you are really misunderstanding this whole thing, I can explain it if you want ? But it may take time so if you don't really care then say so then I won't spend time on the proper response ?

When you say level do you mean rates of occurrence or just in terms of how bad it is ? If it's the latter, I'd hope hateful speech would be seen the same regardless of who's saying it. Funny enough I don't think it is, as I mentioned in South Africa as a white person we are subjected to hate speech from some groups. Things like "whites will driven to the sea and back to England ( its always England we come from remember ) and " one settler, one bullet " but I don't get hurt by it. Its more annoying because it comes from a silly and irrelevant perspective Just because its understandible doesn't make it excusable. Sure its easy to shrug off for the majority powerbase, but... ...IMO the reason why "reverse -ism" is a thing (it crops up everytime racism, sexism or similar get debated) is because there is a perception - right or wrong - that the people who talk about ending racism don't really care about solving the problem of racism, they only care about moving their group out of the oppressed position. And in its way, that's fair - no one wants to be on the short end of the stick. But doing that doesn't really solve the problem. The worry I have is that fixing a symptom here and there doesn't address the root cause. If you've grown up being taught to hate Group X, odds are you're going to teach your kids to hate Group X. And it doesn't matter if you have power in the society or not; what it means is that when you have the power though, you have an opportunity to exercise something you've been taught to be right all your life - that Group X isn't worthy of the same human rights as you. Edit: Fixed a missplaced "T". I'm not saying its right, in fact some white South Africans get really worried and angry and phone in on that radio station I am active on and then are racist themselves But I think its more a knee-jerk reaction...I don't think its as serious as some South Africans make it out to be because of the context Ad yes you right, it would be different story if people were raised to hate or dislike white people

A guy was dressed up as a noblewoman. Perhaps transgender? Okay I see, good observation. I missed that completely...its at the end. Noblewomen arrived, " he " was set upon by brigands. Maybe a typo..is that possible ?

Well, you're just shrugging it off (as one really should - they are just words the majority of the time) but the behaviour is the same - just spouting hateful things based on the race of some people. Sure, I get I am shrugging it off but the reality is the racism that black people have been subjected to historically is really hurtful and dehumanizing for them. It is generational in some cases, I mean African Americans were once slaves...your self-worth can't be much worse than a slave ? Its like if I said to you " Canadians are the scum of the world because you guys are....." I can't even think of way I could insult Canadians that would be meaningful ? But I can think of many hurtful ways to insult black people

I don't get it, what is the surprise? I haven't played the game yet so maybe that's why?

When you say level do you mean rates of occurrence or just in terms of how bad it is ? If it's the latter, I'd hope hateful speech would be seen the same regardless of who's saying it. Funny enough I don't think it is, as I mentioned in South Africa as a white person we are subjected to hate speech from some groups. Things like "whites will driven to the sea and back to England ( its always England we come from remember ) and " one settler, one bullet " but I don't get hurt by it. Its more annoying because it comes from a silly and irrelevant perspective

Why even bother buying more than 1 game in your life then? It's gonna stay fresh forever. That's a good point, now if I could just remember what you are saying the next time I purchase a game

I must be misunderstanding, are you saying this type of event, which is clamping down on freedom of expression , is common in Western countries?

Can you imagine how many threads we would need if it was indeed a ballad

Good points, I hear you

- Joyce Chin, Marvel pencil artist and Asian-American woman. Okay that does seem unreasonable...good example of unfair SJ criticism How would you guys feel if all comic book characters just looked like stickmen...would you accept it

You seem mad ? Whats wrong...you want to discuss it ?

Well I have to say that's a new view on the limerick that I haven't heard before, he killed himself because he was transphobic I don't agree with it because it doesn't make sense. Generally people that demonstrate any form of bigotry like racism or sexism are fine with it because they have disdain for the minority group and feel superior. Why would someone kill themselves if they feel that way? I suppose its possible but unlikely in my experience

I'm currently on 478 hours and I haven't even left the first city, I suffer from acute amnesia in RL but I love reading about lore in any RPG so I logon to play the game, start reading all and every book...then logoff ...then logon again later ...forget that I have in fact read all the books and start reading them all again...logoff again.... and the whole cycle starts again.. I suppose you could argue this has its benefits as I get maximum value from any game

That's fine, no one is forcing you to back any future KS from Obsidian or higher-tiers. This is your prerogative. Changes in some gaming components are generally inevitable so my advice is just accept this will happen on certain levels But you seem to me misunderstand the offense, no-one really has an issue with the guy killing himself. That was his choice, the issue is why he did it. And he did to because he was so ashamed. And why was he ashamed? Not because he was a pedophile or serial killer...that you can understand. He did because he had sex with a women who he lately realized use to be a man. Imagine how members of the transgender community feel knowing that someone is prepared to kill themselves just because they had sex with them The limerick was insensitive and callous and deserved to be edited

Yeah, it was annoying to see only one example. I guess they wanted to keep it American. But you could easily put that in other contexts and see how it transfers. You're less of a cynic than I. I really thought you were going to give me an irrefutable example of how "I make assumptions about groups of people ", in fact I have asked for evidence of that several times and I haven't one valid response. This is no different I have explained several times now that what I meant is I don't make assumptions like " all Russians are homophobic " or " all Americans are warmongers " In your apparently " glaring " example of me doing this you are saying this is not true because I used the words " am sure we will now hear " but I also said the words " most straight people " ...the operative word being "most "..that is not the same thing as me saying " all straight people " And if I say I think person x is a bigot that is not the same thing as me saying " all people who said this are bigots " The funny thing is I have no issue with you actually proving me wrong, so I encourage you to go back and read all my posts and give me a real example of where I said " all people are xxx or all people are yyy" So I still have no idea why you say something got stuck in your throat because I see no contradiction in my posts? Ooo ... kay, I'm not quite sure whether to simply shake my head at this point or if I would be better served by slowly backing away with no sudden movements. ... I mean seriously, I literally spelled the reason your reaction bothered me for everyone to see and you come back with "Please explain why you are bothered by my post." As for making assumptions and since this thread is starting to drift away from baselessly people of being homophobic to racism I'll ask a simple question; since it's apparently fine to make assumptions provided that we preface them with the disclaimer of "I only meant most and not all." Does that make the statement; "You must be one of the good ones." any less offensive to my Mick ancestors when they were being discrimated against because of their country of origin and religion? What about the other minority groups who had that statement thrown into their faces, perhaps most notably and recently against black people. ---- Oh, and since no-one offered to take me up on my joke in the other thread I'll provide the punchline at this time ... "a sixpack and a potato". I am not sure you and I are even on the same page anymore with this debate I am challenging the notion that you said " I make assumptions about groups of people " If you arent saying that now then I'm not sure what we are debating. If you are saying you still found my comment to be offensive thats fine, I am not going to presume to tell you how you should interpret my posts. Sorry if you assumed I was necessarily talking about you but I have idea how your parents treated you so I can't say if you were included in the point earlier I made where I basically said " most straight people haven't had there parents tell them they wish they had been aborted " ...if your parents did say that to you then you have my sincere condolences because as I said to Mungri that's cruel and unfair If that's not what you talking about then I still don't understand exactly what I said that caused something to get stuck in your throat because I am missing how what I said to Mungri is relevant to my self-importance ....that the bit I really don't get And yes you are correct, to say to some ethnic group " you must be one of the good ones " is offensive and patronizing but once again that's not what I said or meant. And I don't know how many times I can keep explaining this *sighs* Look, I'm very nearly convinced that you are being purposefully obtuse and seeing how long you can go before I simply throw up my hands in frustration and walk away. If so then congrats are in order, you are very nearly, but not quite there. So let's try this one last time; I understand that you moved the goalposts from chiding FaustianEchoes with " No, the funny thing is I am not really like you at all. I don't make assumptions about groups of people unless they actually say or do something that warrants criticism. " ( http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/76497-should-discussion-about-the-poem-be-censored/?p=1657861 ) to " I don't say things like " all Russians are homophobic " despite homophobic laws being passed in Russia or I wouldn't say " all Americans are arrogant warmongers " despite America under Bush being very militant around foreign policy " and finishing with " I respond directly to what people say or how they act " ( http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/76497-should-discussion-about-the-poem-be-censored/?p=1657925 ) However the bottom line is that you do in fact make assumptions about groups of people to the point of dismissingly throwing out this gem; " and I'm sure we will now hear comments like " oh so now only gay people have a monopoly on there parents treating them badly..my parents did this to me and my parents did that " " ( http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/76497-should-discussion-about-the-poem-be-censored/?p=1656293 ). That is not a point that I'm willing to let slide as I view grouping people via ideologies far more important than mere geographical locations. As for my visceral reaction to your post towards Mungri ... you are missing the point by assuming that it must somehow be about me or my past at all. Hells, I don't know Mungri from Adam (He seems like a pretty cool guy though.) but my reading of your original post ( http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/76497-should-discussion-about-the-poem-be-censored/?p=1656293 ) was more about you trying to use his story simply as a springboard in advancing your own cause, with a little anecdotal quip thrown in about how shocking one of your friends was treated by his mother for coming out as gay, not to mention getting in a jab at the people you disagree with in this very thread. I suppose it's possible that you didn't mean it the way it read to me, but when combined with posts where you claim that it's impossible for a "defender of gay rights" to be a bigot ( http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/76497-should-discussion-about-the-poem-be-censored/?p=1655894 ) I'm not so sure. My intention is not to frustrate you to the point of walking away, I apologize if that is how it seems I am enjoying this debate and it would be pointless if the result of this was that you felt you didn't want to debate with me. I dont think either of us has been personal and I have to say I appreciate the time you have taken to go back and read my previous posts I did misunderstand you, I am a software consultant for a living and sometimes I see certain discussions as 1 and 0 so I tend to take what people say literally. So I have been focusing only on the point where you were challenging my comment " I don't make assumptions about groups of people " But after reading your last paragraph I see now what you mean. You had issues with other things I said like suggesting that people who support SJ cant be bigots themselves. And you right, they can be. This whole debate is much more nuanced than saying only one group is noble and righteous and the other group is just plain wrong Anyway I only mentioned that true story about my gay friend because I was expressing empathy with Mungri and letting him know that he was't the only person who has been treated badly by his parents because he is gay. But I can see how it also came across as an attack on straight people. That wasn't my intention so that was bad form on my part But thanks for explaining your perspective in detail and I'll work on making my points in a way that also doesn't come across as making sweeping statements or making me seem like a hypocrite

Sounds good, we must all use this thread to update each other on our progress in the game and when we ready for the online part of the game

I hate you so much right now. I didn't expect you to actually acknowledge your mistake, so now I feel like I should apologise for being cranky at you. Sorry. Namutree is actually a very reasonable person, he is not someone who will debate just for sake of debating and never accept he is wrong. He is also not vindictive or malicious during debates and to be honest I don't think I can recall a time where he has become personal or really angry. Rare character traits for a heated forum debate considering how most of us take these topics seriously so naturally we tend to get emotional

Of course, join us. The more the merrier Bokishi you seem to have the most knowledge of how the online component works, are there global servers that people share or specific servers for regions? I'll be playing the online part of GTAV once I have completed the single-player part so I won't be online for at least a month

My understanding is it is very regional. The white people are all in the western part of the country. No we live all over South Africa and we are dominant in the economic sector but there are valid reasons for this. However I don't want to hijack this discussion with a debate about the social and economic reality of South Africa

I think he was only speaking about countries which are white majority. Once you venture into areas with different dominant ethnic groups things are different. Of course South Africa also has that history that makes things more complicated than say, in Thailand or something. Fair enough, South Africa is probably a bad example because you could say due to our past its not surprising some black people are racist..or at least come across like that

Really? That's a rather...bold claim. I'm looking forward to your proof that everyone in the world is, in fact, guilty of some form of racism. Come now Amentep, don't play the old " well prove that everyone in the world is racist " card ...its intellectually dishonest If that was how we disputed a point we would never go anywhere ever with our debates. You know what he meant