BruceVC

Makes sense, the reason I am asking is this is something we grapple with in South Africa. We ask questions like " can you forgive people who discriminated against you ", " how do you forgive people who discriminated against you ", " what does it mean to be a South African...do we as whites need to accept some sense of responsibility for Apartheid even if we were kids at the time and had no influence " and other similar questions So I was interested in your view

Why? Most of europe has free speech. Historicaly speaking long before the US, which is no suprise because the US constitution is based on the Magna Carta Libertatum and it´s various interpretations. Long before the US even existed. I will never understand this. US people are so high on their "freedom" of everything, which compared to us, is just a given thing. In fact considering some laws you have, and the the goverment can do what it want, i would say your idea of freedom is even less than what we consider freedom in europe. Or Russia, which, surprise is also a democracy. I don´t get that "we are the land of the free we can say what we want" when this is standart in europe and factual isn´t even the case in the US. I just don´t get it. Do you care about the notion of free speech....seriously think about it, don't just say " yes " And tell me why you care if you don't mind ?

Forget that example, thats not the point What about pedophile rings that get busted? Don't you automatically assume they scum and guilty ? no, we don't assume they are guilty or scum. however, depending on the evidence made public available, we might protest or boycott. we might even use our First Amendment rights to criticize the State if it appears to us that there were a failure on the part o' lawyers or police or whomever that made it possible for seeming guilty folks to go free. we need be convinced that a person is scum... need more than mere accusation. however, what convinces Gromnir is likely gonna be different than what is required to convince gifted or bruce. good. am not seeing a problem if evidence made public is unconvincing to gifted but satisfies Gromnir that _________ is scum and we will henceforth never voluntarily do business with the d-bag. stuff such as "innocent until proven guilty" is not a standard for the court o' public opinion. if __________ is an accused pedophile, then how much evidence do we require to convince us that ___________ is not somebody we wanna leave alone with our pre-teen cousin, regardless o' whether or not we is certain that they is legal guilty? chances are that we need little such evidence in that situation, eh? for us, legal guilt is a complete different query. there can be any number o' reasons why the State fails to prosecute a scumbag. is even more reasons why the State may fail to gain a conviction o' a scumbag. am understanding that such a pov can seem self-contradictory. HA! Good Fun! No its not self-contradictory but offers a more honest, nuanced and complex perspective which I enjoy Do you consider the First Amendment as sacrosanct? And from some of your personal experiences growing up and being discriminated against by "Americans " I am impressed again that this didn't make you jaded and unconcerned with the US Constitution....or did you resent White people when you were younger and if so what changed ( I remember you did mention this that you had some animosity towards Whites because of how they treated you and your Gran )

The court of public opinion is not the same as a court of law. One of the reasons for a court is to strip away the emotions and examine the facts. Fair enough, I need to give you a valid analogy ....okay let me think about it. The problem being Cosby hasn't been charged yet Here is a good read that may change your mind http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/08/us/bill-cosby-sexual-assault-allegations/index.html

Forget that example, thats not the point What about pedophile rings that get busted? Don't you automatically assume they scum and guilty ?

Interesting answer, you see when it comes to my personal views on Cosby I can't separate the guilty and the fact he is a dirtbag You do have more temperance than me but that doesn't surprise me because of your life experiences. For me its simple, if a guy commits rape on this scale I cannot show much restraint if we believe he has done wrong, then we want to see the process applied fair. we don't need legal punishment per se. ... am gonna admit that there is cases in which we suspect that the process has been subverted. is the State v. Defendant in a criminal case. is not victim v. Defendant. is society as a whole that is s'posed getting justice. however, as a complete random example, a wealthy defendant might be able to convince a victim to refrain from testifying. is pretty much 0 chance a prosecutor is gonna try and nail a defendant for rape w/o the cooperation o' the victim. so, am much bothered when we see a professional basketball player (again, is complete random example) possible escape justice by what amounts to paying off the victim. such results offend us. HA! Good Fun! Yes but what about people who do wrong outside the USA ....like ISIS You would judge them right? I am missing the part of why you guys don't want to pass judgement as I think we do it all the time ?

Interesting answer, you see when it comes to my personal views on Cosby I can't separate the guilty and the fact he is a dirtbag You do have more temperance than me but that doesn't surprise me because of your life experiences. For me its simple, if a guy commits rape on this scale I cannot show much restraint

I'm not talking about my personal feelings because I'm trying not to make this about personal feelings. Here is what I'm seeing: Woman accuses guy of rape More women accuse guy of rape People complain the public isn't believing the weight of the accusations against guy and point to this being a "Rape Culture" that denies rape and enable rapists So my questions stands, how should society treat a guy accused of rape so as to not be a part of "rape culture"? Should we fire him? Boycott his work? How do we demonstrate that we don't support rape? What vigilante justice will make our society right in light of accusations - regardless of how many - that have never led to a court decision? So its okay to "make it real" without his day in court? What penalty should be lodged by society towards the accused to show it has been made real? "Woman accuses guy of rape More women accuse guy of rape People complain the public isn't believing the weight of the accusations against guy and point to this being a "Rape Culture" that denies rape and enable rapists" Is this a common issue because only then would your concern make sense ? Surly you aren't worried this may happen?

I don't think anyone took the stories more seriously because some comedian said something. But my point is what defines taking the accusations seriously in the first place? Somebody is accused of rape by multiple people. What should our reaction be? make the accused the subject of gossip and rumor? assume the accused is guilty until proven innocent? publicly denounce the accused for their alleged actions? shun the accused? ensure the accused loses their job and livelyhood? ensure the accused loses custody of their children? ensure that the accused is cut off from all ties to the human race? In short, what precisely is the appropriate reaction when a person has been accused as opposed to found guilty (criminal) or liable (civil)? I'm not talking about whether a person thinks he's guilty or not. What I'm talking about is what is the desired reaction to an accusation of rape? Because what is apparent is that there are people who believe that we should treat an accusation of rape as proof of rape. That apparently giving the accuser the benefit of the doubt as opposed to storming their house and tarring and feathering them isn't the right reaction. So tell me, how should we react to demonstrate we are against rape? Not intentionally I'm not. Again as I said yesterday I've made no claims intentionally regarding people making up their own mind or forming their own opinions. But you - amid the news reporter-pundit types as well - keep talking about how "the general public has failed to take the stories seriously". So here's my question, how are we supposed to demonstrate that we take the stories seriously? What does that mean? What rights do we deprive the accused of to demonstrate that we're taking these accusations seriously? This is the point I'm getting at. I think you need to use common sense when it comes to rape allegations ...are you really telling me that you don't think he is guilty because he hasn't been convicted or charged ? You need to respond how you feel is appropriate when someone is guilty of habitual rape...I imagine surprise and condemnation and sorrow for his victims. And then a reminder of how much work is still to be done so going forward people don't get away with it Desired reaction? Nothing really expect for personal views and forum comments ...but he needs to see his day in court to make it real for most people

Gromnir your view on this topic matters to me because I generally agree with your logic Surly you believe he is guilty and please don't say " no I always wait for trials before formulating an opinion " What do you think based on everything that has happened ?

I don't think the words " culture of rape " is appropriate...I think it adds a level of exaggeration and unneeded outrage to the debate

Why? I appreciate the fact you seem to want to have a real debate but you realize that the words " culture of rape " was used in the original article I posted See below, so it wasn't my words it was CNN http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/20/opinion/hill-bill-cosby-case-rape-culture/index.html?hpt=hp_c3 From that article So I'm going to ask you, Bruce, since this is one of the main criticisms over the reaction to the allegations against Cosby, that people don't immediately start treating people like rapists when someone accuses them of doing such... ...is that what you really want to end "Rape Culture"? To not have people wait for an outcome of a civil or state trial but to accept any accusation so long as the source is "credible" or that there are many sources or that there are many incidents over a long period of time? Why? I appreciate the fact you seem to want to have a real debate but you realize that the words " culture of rape " was used in the original article I posted See below, so it wasn't my words it was CNN http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/20/opinion/hill-bill-cosby-case-rape-culture/index.html?hpt=hp_c3 From that article So I'm going to ask you, Bruce, since this is one of the main criticisms over the reaction to the allegations against Cosby, that people don't immediately start treating people like rapists when someone accuses them of doing such... ...is that what you really want to end "Rape Culture"? To not have people wait for an outcome of a civil or state trial but to accept any accusation so long as the source is "credible" or that there are many sources or that there are many incidents over a long period of time? Sure, I get your point but I think you misunderstood what he was saying, he says "Despite report after report, often from credible sources, the general public has failed to take the stories seriously. That was, of course, until male comedian Hannibal Buress raised the rape allegations during a two-minute comedy skit last month." So what he is really saying is that until now people haven't taken the stories seriously Also you are being dramatic, loads of people think he is guilty. This doesn't mean now all rape charges will be automatically believed Can you answer me something, you have an issue with the fact that I am saying he is guilty before going to trial. And you are positioning that as a bad thing right ? Have you never had preconceived views on the guilt of people before trail? Like the Boston Marathon bomber ...when he was caught didn't you think he was guilty ?

I don't mind but thanks for the sentiment You see Orog I just don't respond to people who I don't want to. I also find this criticism of what I say very entertaining because most of the time its unfounded Also this is the type of attention you get from some people when you raise SJ issues....but that's just a consequence. Of course I'm not suggesting I prefer that type of debate, I obviously prefer the debates we and others have. We can disagree but its rationale

Why? I appreciate the fact you seem to want to have a real debate but you realize that the words " culture of rape " was used in the original article I posted See below, so it wasn't my words it was CNN http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/20/opinion/hill-bill-cosby-case-rape-culture/index.html?hpt=hp_c3

Unlike you I support equal right to everyone. In this case I support a fair trial, again unlike you. Nah...you don't even like black people so why are you pretending that you care about Cosby's trial It just so happens you dislike feminists and women wanting gender equality more than black people so you are now attacking them I don't have to like anybody. I tolerate most people and don't dislike the selected few. That doesn't mean I support unjust and unlawful treatment of groups I dislike...again unlike you BruceVC. You would support mistreatment, injustice and I think even genocide of groups you are not fond of. Your words just prove this "you don't even like (...) so why are you pretending that you care", meaning if you don;t like some groups then you don't care what happens to them. You are like USA during IIWW when Polish officer Jan Karski informed about Holocaust of Jews "well it's horrible, but we don't really like Jews". I may be antisocial jackass, but you BruceVC once again proved to be a horrible human being. Yeah, it true...I admit it ..I'm a horrible person What do you suggest I do to become a better person ?

I don't maintain a .txt file for this forum, and even if I were to mention cases where you have a rather amusing idea of justice not sure what that would achieve. I talk to enough walls at work. Thats interesting, I ask you for examples of why you criticized me as I'm genuinely interested and you can't give me any? Please think,I'm not trying to catch you out

Unlike you I support equal right to everyone. In this case I support a fair trial, again unlike you. Nah...you don't even like black people so why are you pretending that you care about Cosby's trial It just so happens you dislike feminists and women wanting gender equality more than black people so you are now attacking them

Based on your posting here, you walk into the trap of wanting justice for people you like alone. Recently, think on your stance on the ruling that feeling harassed isn't enough to convict. As for supporting victims, heh, yeah, posting online will help them tonnes. But yes, it will give you credit for being the Right Kind of person. Okay Malc I genuinely want to understand your point, please give me examples so I get it ?

Its nothing personal, I am just focusing on other topics

Are you seriously using Spain as an example of austerity working? There is over 20% unemployment and real wages have been declining since 2008. If that's austerity working then it doesn't seem to be able to help workers. Ireland has an unemployment rate of 9.7% and real wages have been declining since 2009. Not doing as badly as Italy or Spain is a rather weak achievement. http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=AV_AN_WAGE Not to mention the effects the cuts and regressive taxes had on people: http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/irelands-austerity-success-is-no-model-for-greece-340662.html Comparatively we have Iceland which did not pursue austerity and has an unemployment of 4.7%(less than half of Ireland) and has seen real wages increase since 2008. http://www.statice.is/?PageID=1251&src=https://rannsokn.hagstofa.is/pxen/Dialog/varval.asp?ma=VIS04004%26ti=Real+wages%2C+index+1989-2015+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++%26path=../Database/visitolur/launavisitala/%26lang=1%26units=Index/percent It's pretty clear that austerity measures don't help the economy. And that was after Germany attacked Greece and killed a lot of them. KP thanks for taking the time to respond in detail, even if we disagree A couple of corrections, funny enough the 24 % unemployment rate in Spain is considered serious but the good news is about other things that the Spanish have done since austerity was introduced . In the USA the unemployment rate becomes a key barometer of the success of the presidency so I can understand you focusing on that in Spain but that is just part of the overall economic picture Also you seem to be looking and judging the success of austerity on USA standards....you mustn't do that as the USA standards are much higher and if Spain was in the USA it would probably be considered economically challenged. Each county in the EU undergoing austerity has had different levels of transformation...with Greece being the exception But there is no such thing as completely recovered for any of the 5 countries. But considering these countries were on the verge of bankruptcy we really need to see the progression

I'm sure that with so many claims there is plenty of material available to get to the truth of the matter. However on the other hand if out of all these many claims it will turn out that not even one can be proven not only can you dismiss them but you absolutely must. I hear what you guys are saying that I shouldn't make assumptions about his guilt but this time is one of those exceptions. Remember I look at all the events and circumstances when making this type of judgement

I feel like I have been neglecting this thread and not engaging with you guys....sorry for that. I hope you guys don't think I was being rude ?

Come now, lets be honest ....I'm sure you constantly feel that there are smart people around you all the time...this should be normal? I love how Bruce keeps posting links that actually disprove the points he's making. He can't read, he's impervious to facts and logic, and yet, despite taking a sound beating in every topic in which he participates, he's never afraid to remind everyone of how ignorant he is. Trollish regeneration at work, I suppose. Why people keep engaging with him is beyond me... Now now 2133 you aren't doing very well with your new approach to be less condescending and dismissive around your forum etiquette ..I have noticed you making some polite apologies on other topics to people when you felt you were being rude and I was impressed. I always support self-improvement moments. But they were simple debates and its easy to be polite on those types of discussions. Try to be more polite with all people, look at me. You see I don't feel the need to insult you despite your belligerence Also I'll be honest, I don't consider these forum debates something where there is a winner or loser. I set my bar on things I consider to be victory firmly in RL and what I need to achieve...but its good you feel sense of vindication for " winning " a forum discussion . All we do here is engage in debate that hopefully people can learn something from. And obviously there is the more light and entertaining topics like gaming which is always fun Now no more criticism from me, I want to explain a few things. Firstly I'm glad you read the articles, I was hoping you would. All those links were posted for a reason which you have clearly missed . The first two are unequivocal "good news stories " about Spain but the third one I posted exactly because austerity is hard and obviously Spain has to stay the course as there are still economic challengers Why would I not recognize that Spain is not all good news. I look at all this austerity strategically and understand it has different degrees of success. I also specifically mentioned that Spain still has high unemployment and government debt. But your banking system is healthy, that is key and fundamental and your economy is growing. What I find bizarre is how you refuse to recognize this. I don't think you are some zealot, in fact I know you are very intelligent yet you fail to see the success of austerity in your own country? I'm not sure if you are hoping the Greeks will somehow get out of austerity and all those billions of Euros of debt will be removed so then Spain can follow the same route? That's a pipe dream and wont happen so my advice its best to be realistic But go Spain, I think they have done very well considering how difficult austerity is so I want to acknowledge this even if you don't

Not sure 50 people claiming something is really 'proof'. 50 racists in London claim there's a bias against their football team, doesn't make it so. Who was dismissing this, by the way ? Seemed most were adopting a wait and see approach, much like the legal system does (then again, what do you care for that). Which is wise for us, I mean we lose out on our "social justice" cookies by not making posts about him being guilty already. Why do you say I don't care for the legal system...I think he is guilty that's not the same thing as me saying he shouldn't have a fair trial if required Nah...you score more " social justice " cookies when you support the rape victims ...so don't worry about that so 50 people is all it takes to confess someone without trial? I like those odds. Please pass this law LGBT, normals will use it to put all of you directly in to prison. Some people apparently didn't read pass the title which is misinterpretation of what Cosby said. He admit that during buying drugs he though about giving it to a woman. We don't know what woman and we don;t know if she was in to it. It doesn't surprise me that you support Cosby..but you don't have much respect for women anyway so why take there side on any issue right?

What judgement from you about people not taking me seriously .....okay this is something I now need to consider if someone of your view of what is acceptable criticizes me ...its like ISIS lecturing you about human rights abuse In US Legal system, a man is innocent until proven guilty. So far he has not been proven guilty (or even liable in a civil case - I believe he settled the only lawsuit against him). This has nothing to do with my personal opinion of the situation. All I offered was a counter to two things I found troubling - the sensationalistic claims that Cosby admitted to drugging multiple unwilling women (which doesn't appear to be true from his statements I've read, as they only discuss one woman and one incident) and the very concept that an accusation (or even multiple accusations) are proof of guilt without there being a legal trial to assign guilt/liability/culpability. If 50 people accused you of rape, do you want the legal system to assume you are guilty and throw you in jail? Or would you rather the legal system provide you and your accusers equal opportunity to prove with facts the claims or to counter with facts a defense against them? Of course if he can prove that women consented to unconscious sex before they took the drug, then situation is of course different, but I have not seen any such proof from him. I Noooo....you won't mesmerize me this time with your forum voodoo prestidigitation ...you are very convincing as I've said in the past and you have caused me to rethink my views on topics but this time I will be bold and resolute and defy your logic !!!!!