BruceVC

This is an important question " the west actively contributed to it's destabilization " ...I don't believe this but I understand others do Its simple really to resolve thius , do you think the Arab Spring was caused by the West? Because the root cause of almost all this instability is a consequence of the Arab Spring...this includes Syria, Libya and the rise of ISIS And yes I am well aware of the contribution to the instability of the ME that the invasion of Iraq caused but this is not as destabilizing as the Arab Spring has been So then we need to ask again " is the West responsible for the Arab Spring " ? If you think it is then yes the West is responsible for the fact millions of Muslims are trying to immigrate to Western countries, I don't support this but if you do then maybe you can explain how the West is the cause for this social and political phenomena that swept through the Middle East and Northern Africa ?

You incorrectly believe that countries exist within a vacuum and that the success or failure of individual states has nothing to do with their relation to others. Because of this you erroneously treat "Western" success as purely a product of "Western ideology" and thus falsely assume the solution to non-Western states' conditions is to simply adopt "Western values". This of course obfuscates the material conditions in which these states exist, and perhaps most importantly, denies the role economic domination and subordination enforced by these "Western" states plays. We have already had discussion with Haiti being the example. You right, we have had this discussion before and I still dont agree with your general premise. Yes it has some truth to it and I won't deny that So lets take your point for example " perhaps most importantly, denies the role economic domination and subordination enforced by these Western states plays" So lets look at the African continent as an example of this view. Colonialism was terrible system that looted the natural resources of many African countries and undermined the sovereignty of many African countries But Colonialism for every single French and British African country, except for Algeria, was ended during the late 1960's. And all the colonies were handed over to educated African leaders and the countries were handed over in working states. Yet without fail, except for Botswana, every single ex-British and French colony was bankrupt by 1980's and needed loans from the IMF. But it wasn't Colonialism that caused this, this was a factor, but the main reason was mismanagement and lack of good governance by African leaders. Nowadays we have rising stars on the African continent, certain countries doing really well to transform there economies and uplift there citizens Yet we have about 10-12 countries that are truly in a benighted state and this responsibility lies with the respective leaders...like Zimbabwe and Uganda So in summary if all African leaders practiced good governance and maintained things like government institutions the African continent wouldn't be in the state its in. This is not about the West but actually about Africa and transforming the economy. Also the AU is an abysmal failure at managing the affairs of the continent and of course this doesn't help with economic and social upliftment of the overall continent I don't know much about Haiti so I can't comment

Just a heads up, if you ever want to know why you butt heads with so many posters here it's because of this kind of political analysis. Yes I understand a view of the reality of a political and social situation is not popular for some people on these forums, I have accepted that. So lets take exactly what I said and tell me how its wrong Are millions of people from Muslims countries not trying to immigrate to the West, is that not true? Lets keep this simple and focus on what I said and what you disagree with

I really like the socialist\capitalist government hybrid model that the Scandinavian countries have successfully implemented It permeates all your government institutions like education and healthcare, I know nothing is perfect but I still think it offers citizens the most effective system to uplift themselves economically It does require a high employment rate so everyone can contribute and a relatively high tax rate which I would be prepared to pay in a country like South Africa but we have far too many people who are unemployed or live on social grants....so I doubt we could implement it as the tax base is too low to fund effective government services like Sweden has But I'm sure other first world countries could follow Scandinavian economic model?

Well, you can leave your democracy and western values at their border... And we would stay at the border....but you notice millions of Muslims are leaving there countries and crossing our borders to look for an understandable better life in the West So what do you suggest? Should we do what you say and refuse to let anyone in to the EU,....maybe you right, it seems a bit cruel

Its becoming clear you don't want a positive view of the West and the current status of Western institutions like the EU I spend time explaining that Western ideology is under no threat from the likes of Islamic extremism because basically your issues and various questions are a symptomatic concern from the consequences of the actions of ISIS and you dismiss my entire post with some annoying " you haven't answered any of my questions" There are plenty of people who will exaggerate and embellish the state of the West and its sustainability. People like Drowsy and Zora will tell you the West is doomed and our culture is on the path to serious change and forced evolution...so you need to just continue to support them in there posts. There view supports the whole " chicken little ...the sky is falling " I operate in a world of facts, data and historical precedent. I won't pander to your negative view of the reality of the EU and say how " bad things are " just so you feel vindicated on some level

No thats not true Gadaffi ruled Libya for 40 years and he never once had an election, he ruled the country because he was a brutal dictator and controlled the army and police He is the same as Saddam, they aren't legitimate leaders so I'm not sure what " own peoples business " means because these types of countries don't include the people in the economy or politics that benefit the ruling dictator and his supporters

Congrats to both of you! Yes Gratz indeed Shady

You can keep yours. I give you permission. Namutree post that profile picture for me....I have the feeling it will make me laugh Only if you promise to use it as your new profile pic. At least for a day. Okay but I really should see it first....but I suppose how bad can it be? Okay I promise to use it for a day or so

You can keep yours. I give you permission. Namutree post that profile picture for me....I have the feeling it will make me laugh

Calax, I'm sure we've batted this ball around before. Libertarians are not anarchists. Libertarians are not opposed to taxes. We are opposed to writing a blank check to a federal government that is doing things it has no business or legal authority to do. The gist of the libertarian political philosophy (the modern version of it, not the 1950's objectivist utopia crap) is that all level of government have specific functions that should be well defined and narrowly construed and that it be sufficiently funded only enough to fulfill those functions. The Federal government has it's responsibilities including securing the borders, maintaining the currency, etc., the state, county, city, governments have theirs. You know what they are, you of all people do not need a civics lesson from me. The real trouble begins when those governments get into things they shouldn't be doing or assuming power they should not have. I have never understood what a Libertarian stands for or actually means in the US political landscape ...that seems like good description

I would oppose that. Granted I've opposed all US aggression in my lifetime, and voted accordingly. Too bad most people aren't like me in this regard. If you knew my history on this forum; you'd know that I'm among the very most skeptical of US foreign policy. Yes Namutree has always opposed Western military intervention unless the Wests interests are truly threatened . that is true. And he refuses to change his mind despite my efforts And people have been interfering and trying to defeat the West for decades. The West has faced threats like fascism, communism and now Islamic extremism..and the West has always persevered, survived and evolved. So please don't think the West hasn't been under attack in its history....it has been and it is currently. But this is something we can address and we will deal with it So take your best shot, please ...interfere as much as you want, it won't change the reality of the world and this is something you really don't want to admit " the West offers its citizens the best quality of life and has the happiest citizens " ..which is why it is the most dominant ideology in the world

You funny Please post a link refuting what I am saying, I am keen to read it as long as its relatively credible....in other words I don't assume all right wing websites are automatically wrong but I would reject something from a white, supremacist website . But I don't think you would post something from that type of source

Yeah I also don't think I'm going to change mine

Their countries won't be a mess if not because of the west...the west who messed up their countries. Such as in Afhanistan, USA who supply the Mujahidden to fight Russia and then let them loose, you give weapons to mad men, then these mad men rule, what do you expect? Below is Afghanistan before ad after USA using Mujahiddeen to fight Russian. If the west don't intervine, Afghans won't bother to migrate to the west.... Below is Iraq before and after USA topple Saddam Hussein Western peoples are hypocrite...you claim you are better than anyone, it is just because you destroy everyone else No, you are mistaken So yes some mistakes were made by the West, like the invasion of Iraq and the reasons we were given But countries need to learn once they have independence they need to practice good governance and be inclusive of all there citizens ISIS also wouldn't be in existence if the current Shia and Iranian influenced government in Iraq had incorporated the Sunni minority...so that's on al-Maliki He ostracized the Sunni minority in Iraq and they felt like they weren't part of the new Iraq....so the new Iraqi government failed to be inclusive of all its citizens. This lead to the tribal Sunnis aligning with ISIS and supporting them...this is not the Wests fault So its very important to remember that if the West really wanted to destroy the Middle East....it really doesn't have to do too much as certain countries are doing it to themselves

You know I don't think I've changed my profile picture in......over 3 years ?

Yes China did have the most advanced civilization for 3000 years...but that ended 600 years ago Now the West has the most advanced, tolerant and progressive civilization in the world. Its not hard to understand why this is I am not suggesting Western superiority because I am some sort of Western zealot, the facts speak for themselves. Even Muslims from countries that supposedly dislike the West, like Afghanistan, Pakistan and Syria want to immigrate to the West You should ask the various refugees why they consider Western culture preferable to living in the Middle East...blame them for creating this view '"that the West offers the quality of life "

@ Meshugger No the future is fine .. but lets clarify something important are you concerned about the future of the West or white men. Or lets say the white race Some people believe there are various overt and covert social and political campaigns and stratagems to marginalize and undermine the white race and I'm not talking about white Aryans. I mean normal white people who are honestly concerned about the future So what ails you so ? You post like a woman, answering questions with questions. Well if you can't clarify what you mean then I can't give you that rosy picture of the future, but things are fine.....the West is fine. Don't worry so much Don't play dumb. How will they be fine? How will society be better? How will the trust in the institutions and the leaders be better? How will crime be less? How will terrorism erode away? How will economic development be better? How will social cohesion better? How will social mobility be improved? This wave of refugees are anything but helping the situation, that's for sure. I have only heard good evidence for different degrees for doom & gloom. So lets reverse the tide somehow, spread your solutions with positivism or otherwise there will be wars. Lets hear it, Bruce. Seriously...wars between who? Wars between the disheartened and disillusioned Syrian refugees and the West...wow that's a real threat. The West has been the most dominant ideology\government for 500 years because it follows certain rules and systems of governance that have been proved the BEST ways to run a country and ensure that the West has the happiest citizens in the world. The relevance of the " happiest citizens in the world " cannot be ignored because this is a real metric that should be used to determine if a particular government is really successful. Its not about GDP, military might or a respected government. These are all factors but end of the day what we should simply ask when we ponder the question " what makes a good government\ideology " is simply " are the citizens happy " If the citizens are happy then there is no reason that system of government will end ...its as simple as that And if you think somehow terrorist attacks are going to undermine the West then that's an egregious misunderstanding. Attacks like Paris shootings unite countries and unions like the EU. They make governments more resolute and steadfast in dealing with the particular issue. Terrorism and bomb blasts have never historically caused any government to say " oh well, time to change our core and fundamental beliefs because of some extremist group " Hollande and France have reaffirmed military alliances with Russia and even Germany is now more committed to a military solution, we also have the UK voting again on airstrikes in Syria So lets be clear on this point " ISIS or any extremist attacks on the West are just going to unite the West " ..not weaken it So I'm sorry I don't understand or support this notion that the West is going to be defeated or face some of sort of structural social and political change due to Islamic extremism The facts don't support the reality my Finnish friend

Yes it is if its objective is to ensure greater safety ....which is aligned to freedom Isn't a safe society a free society? But if you are referring to programs like Prism maybe you can give me one example around how you personal freedom has been impacted by Prism...for example do you know people who have been arrested due to Prism surveillance? I keep hearing how " the Federal government under Obama has eroded our freedom " yet I don't see any tangible examples of this except for rhetoric and diatribe against Obama ?

What the heck did I just read!? This is madness! I have so many questions! A) Why is he named patriotpony1986? If patriotpony was already taken then why not just choose a different friggin' name? B) Ayn Rand is not a conservative. So why is a "proud conservative" trying to enmesh her philosophy with things. C) My little pony contains huge amounts of mysticism and mystic thinking which Ayn Rand despises thus making the values of objectivism and MLP incompatible. Why would some one so obsessed with Ayn Rand that he tries to enmesh her philosophy into stuff not be aware of this? D) He says that if we meet that HE IS THE MAN in the relationship. What does that even mean? E) How does he talk about the liberal agenda as something that is eroding freedom in Equestria if he wants to enmesh Equestria with Ayn Rand's values? Does he not realize that Ayn Rand is a liberal? It's a 26 year old obsessed with a children's show, it shouldn't make sense. ... We all realize that's from a dating website right? That makes it funnier. Well at least he is being honest, after reading that and still going on a date with him it seems unlikely any prospective date can say " I never knew he was like that " ....or " he never seemed so weird in the beginning " For me the most concerning thing is not the Little Pony references but he says " I AM THE MAN in the relationship " ....I find that view anachronistic

@ Meshugger No the future is fine .. but lets clarify something important are you concerned about the future of the West or white men. Or lets say the white race Some people believe there are various overt and covert social and political campaigns and stratagems to marginalize and undermine the white race and I'm not talking about white Aryans. I mean normal white people who are honestly concerned about the future So what ails you so ? You post like a woman, answering questions with questions. Well if you can't clarify what you mean then I can't give you that rosy picture of the future, but things are fine.....the West is fine. Don't worry so much

@ Meshugger No the future is fine .. but lets clarify something important are you concerned about the future of the West or white men. Or lets say the white race Some people believe there are various overt and covert social and political campaigns and stratagems to marginalize and undermine the white race and I'm not talking about white Aryans. I mean normal white people who are honestly concerned about the future So what ails you so ?

I dont believe the Swedish immigration policy is a disaster, you obviously will believe that because of your anti-EU and anti-Western views. I understand you want the EU to fail but most of us dont want that It has some issues but I won't believe its a disaster until someone who maybe lives in Sweden or the surrounding area can comment..may Rostere or Elerond? Bruce, remind me how are your crime rates in your country again? then please tell me what social/ethnic group is responsible for most of them? Yes but thats because 80 % of the country is black and we have social conditions that exacerbate the overall crime But there is no connection between our crime and the view " black Africans are more inclined to commit crime"

I dont believe the Swedish immigration policy is a disaster, you obviously will believe that because of your anti-EU and anti-Western views. I understand you want the EU to fail but most of us dont want that It has some issues but I won't believe its a disaster until someone who maybe lives in Sweden or the surrounding area can comment..may Rostere or Elerond?

I don't think SA's current government is interested in tackling issues that it can't blame on white people... No its not that bad ...the government actually leaves us alone