BruceVC

You can expect the same outcome for as long as there are individuals who believe enough in Islam. And unlike the Soviet Union and its Baader-Meinhof types, jihadis of their era, you will not see Islam wither away in a few decades. At least for as long as the great majority of the masses that comprise the faith are inevitably poor (therefore difficult to seduce with a middle class hedonistic lifestyle), and in a constant state of population expansion (which ensures they stay relatively poor). And if the native population of Europe continues the trend of shrinking birth rates and importation of low wage workers from Islamic countries that they cannot successfully assimilate (as has been proven repeatedly) then the problem will last until a tipping point of some sort is reached. The problem is not the odd terrorist attack or in Islam itself, its the lack of a stable European identity that goes beyond "let's keep our wealthy status quo ad inifinitum". If Europeans knew who they were, positioning vis-a-vis Islam or any other entity would be much easier. The position of the great majority of muslims versus Europeans is fundamentally one of enmity based in religion. You can think what you like of that attitude, but its clear and logical. The position of Europe versus Islam is to ignore this aspect of muslim identity, create a separate category for the most combative ones ("extremists") thereby sweeping the problem under the rug and essentially pretending that nothing is happening. The European "solution" of expecting them all to become little secular Frenchmen and Germans, singing La Marseillaise and reading Goethe was a bit... presumptuous... to begin with. I really wish you wouldn't make such negative posts....I don't believe a word of it but I'm worried you may exacerbate the tension that many of European members are feeling The Syrian refugees coming to Europe DOES NOT represent some sort of clash of civilizations. But I will say this, I may even agree with you that perhaps Muslim countries do resent the West for some or other reason but the reality is you will not see some sort of Islamic conversion of Europe because the Muslim world is simply just not stronger or admired enough to influence this Sorry to sound direct but thats why Europeans have nothing to fear...your ideology and culture cannot be conquered by someone weaker than you Tell this to Romans... You can expect the same outcome for as long as there are individuals who believe enough in Islam. And unlike the Soviet Union and its Baader-Meinhof types, jihadis of their era, you will not see Islam wither away in a few decades. At least for as long as the great majority of the masses that comprise the faith are inevitably poor (therefore difficult to seduce with a middle class hedonistic lifestyle), and in a constant state of population expansion (which ensures they stay relatively poor). And if the native population of Europe continues the trend of shrinking birth rates and importation of low wage workers from Islamic countries that they cannot successfully assimilate (as has been proven repeatedly) then the problem will last until a tipping point of some sort is reached. The problem is not the odd terrorist attack or in Islam itself, its the lack of a stable European identity that goes beyond "let's keep our wealthy status quo ad inifinitum". If Europeans knew who they were, positioning vis-a-vis Islam or any other entity would be much easier. The position of the great majority of muslims versus Europeans is fundamentally one of enmity based in religion. You can think what you like of that attitude, but its clear and logical. The position of Europe versus Islam is to ignore this aspect of muslim identity, create a separate category for the most combative ones ("extremists") thereby sweeping the problem under the rug and essentially pretending that nothing is happening. The European "solution" of expecting them all to become little secular Frenchmen and Germans, singing La Marseillaise and reading Goethe was a bit... presumptuous... to begin with. Truth to be told I can't blame them for not wanting to read Goethe And yeah. We had plenty examples in history. Babylon, Egypt, Greece, Rome etc. With Rome being the best example as it ell to religious turmoils and barabrian invasions Chilloutman and Dark Can I ask you guys something....do you feel that with this influx of refugees coming to Europe that European culture is threatened? And do you draw comparisons between the EU now and Rome...in other words the Romans also thought they would last forever ?

You can expect the same outcome for as long as there are individuals who believe enough in Islam. And unlike the Soviet Union and its Baader-Meinhof types, jihadis of their era, you will not see Islam wither away in a few decades. At least for as long as the great majority of the masses that comprise the faith are inevitably poor (therefore difficult to seduce with a middle class hedonistic lifestyle), and in a constant state of population expansion (which ensures they stay relatively poor). And if the native population of Europe continues the trend of shrinking birth rates and importation of low wage workers from Islamic countries that they cannot successfully assimilate (as has been proven repeatedly) then the problem will last until a tipping point of some sort is reached. The problem is not the odd terrorist attack or in Islam itself, its the lack of a stable European identity that goes beyond "let's keep our wealthy status quo ad inifinitum". If Europeans knew who they were, positioning vis-a-vis Islam or any other entity would be much easier. The position of the great majority of muslims versus Europeans is fundamentally one of enmity based in religion. You can think what you like of that attitude, but its clear and logical. The position of Europe versus Islam is to ignore this aspect of muslim identity, create a separate category for the most combative ones ("extremists") thereby sweeping the problem under the rug and essentially pretending that nothing is happening. The European "solution" of expecting them all to become little secular Frenchmen and Germans, singing La Marseillaise and reading Goethe was a bit... presumptuous... to begin with. I really wish you wouldn't make such negative posts....I don't believe a word of it but I'm worried you may exacerbate the tension that many of European members are feeling The Syrian refugees coming to Europe DOES NOT represent some sort of clash of civilizations. But I will say this, I may even agree with you that perhaps Muslim countries do resent the West for some or other reason but the reality is you will not see some sort of Islamic conversion of Europe because the Muslim world is simply just not stronger or admired enough to influence this Sorry to sound direct but thats why Europeans have nothing to fear...your ideology and culture cannot be conquered by someone weaker than you

Sure Paris attackers are next generation of imigrants, so we can expect same outcome of another generation of refuges? Good question but no, remember France does face two real social problems that are relatively unique to the rest of Europe They have a huge problem with the integration of Muslims from there colonies They are actively involved in numerous campaigns in places like Africa against extremism I really admire the French for there effort and assistance they are giving there former African colonies...but sadly this makes them a real target for the extremists So my point being France has different social challenges to other European countries

Sure I have heard that about the Scandinavian countries before....lickety called them " self-hating Swedes " I found it quite funny because as a foreigner I was unaware of this type of view ...but I can understand why some in the EU may see the Scandinavians approach as maybe far too accommodating...I understand not all countries will or can do this And yes if they have no military commitments then this just reduces the chance of an attack even more What country are you worried about in the EU?

Okay but I thought you had concerns about a home grown attack? Interesting but the lack of refugees arriving in Finland confirms one of my points

I see the other thread was locked but I had written a long post to Meshugger and I really want to post it Also this is an important social change for all our members who live in the EU....and we need somewhere to discuss our concerns and look for solutions Anyway here is my post to Meshugger Let me guess: more quotas, a more heterogenous society, more forced tolerance, more restriction on speech in real life and online, essentially undermining any trust or common bond that could keep a society together without a repressive government. Thus, making Europe more like the Middle East than Europe before in order to keep it together. But I am all ears, please tell me what solutions that i might've missed. "No....thats way off. I'm sorry you think so less of my insight on these matters ....but I suppose its because of our pointless debates in the GG thread So firstly you are asking a valid and reasonable question, this has been asked by many people and studied and the various outcomes analyzed. So I'll just summarize the various responses Yes one of the targets of Islamic extremism is the whole EU but groups like ISIS prefer to target the countries that they feel have been actively involved in a war against Islam as it adds to the sensationalism and there definition of " meaningful jihad " . So this would be places like France and the UK. Large numbers of people from the ME don't like Finland, I'm not sure why? Its probably the weather ...remember those immigrants from Iraq saying Finland wasn't that hospitable and recommended people go somewhere else .....I have to say thats quite the claim to fame. People come from a war torn hell hole like the occupied territories of Iraq under ISIS where death, beheadings or crucifixion await you and yet they can't live in Finland ..... But on a serious note the good news is I doubt Finland is a destination of choice so you will naturally get less long term immigrants So these are just reasons why Finland is one of the EU countries that wouldn't normally be on the radar for a Paris style attack....these alone should reassure you a little Now I'll comment on the actual homegrown terrorism Yes its true homegrown terrorism is theoretically the hardest to stop. But the Boston Marathon attacks are what are almost impossible to prevent. You have a small group of people who are foreigners and don't share there views with the greater Muslim community, so the attack is not discussed or boasted about on social media and the normal information gathering techniques like informants are ineffective. Why I'm mentioning this is that in places like the USA and UK they do prevent attacks through information gathering...so dont assume an attack once thought about is inevitable Attacks like Paris and the London underground were originated from people who had lived in the communities for years, this can be prevented by having a good relationship with the Muslim community and having people who really will inform. Now I mention this because this requires a social reality for people like the refugees where they feel part of the system.....countries like Denmark, Sweden ,Finland and Norway are well known for excellent methods of integrating foreigners so once again this will reduce overall likelihood of attacks. How many extremist attacks have occurred in the Scandinavian countries over the last 10 years? And this is despite the fact that there are people who have left these countries and even fought in Syria France has a huge problem, they have trying to integrate Muslims from there former colonies for decades but they did this before it was understood that to reduce resentment and social alienation you can't just have people living in ghettos on social grants ..this breeds fundamentalism. France has also been correctly involved in various campaigns against extremism ....add to that sectors of the Muslim community there who are disillusioned and France becomes the logical target in the EU. But I'm not blaming the French...they are just in an invidious position historically when it comes to Islamic extremism..and of course we all stand by France Why I mentioned France is because a place like Finland is seen very differently to extremists and also the UK is equally considered a target. Yet we have seen fewer attacks succeed in the UK . Why is that ? Apart from the geography its because of the integration of the Muslim community and the fact there is better dialogue between the UK government and the UK Muslim community . So integration is very important So in summary, yes you will have thousands of Syrians arriving in Finland. I imagine they will be nervous and see Finland as an alien place culturally compared to what they use to...but your government will provide the necessary resources to integrate them. Also you mustn't compare these Syrians to the Algerians and Tunisians that you see in French gangs who are often involved in crime . The vast majority of them will not be criminals and just want a place they can safely raise there families and will give no issues to your country. And even if a small percentage are extremists they would rather target a place like France Finally there is nothing wrong with being concerned and asking the questions you asked , I can imagine for all you guys like Mam, Dark and yourself this whole refugee migration must seem a little daunting. I would expect you to have doubts which is understandable ...then we had the Paris attacks so you guys might have thought " OMG ....and we are letting thousands of them into our country...what have our governments done " But the people who committed the Paris attacks are not motivated or have views like the Syrians arriving in Finland...so dont make a comparison. Anyway I hope to have alleviated some of your concerns....let me know if have other questions "

Yes, you have made some valid examples. I am aware of what you saying and I will respond but its going to take time for me to make the post and I'm also working ...but I want to reply and I will so please be patient

I do have several solutions and ideas, remember I have been studying the Middle East for years and I have worked extensively in the ME so I consider myself well informed Is that your concern, just to clear. Someone immigrating to Finland ....hating the West and then attacking Finland or indoctrinating his children? Please be honest so I can give you the best response

Hiro even in Oz you guys have Yoga classes right ?

No my friend your link is not an example of a society I would ever want to exist...my ideal society would have some monitoring and increased expectations for how people need to behave but not like that example. Its like refusing to eat at a Lebanese restaurant because you don't want to support ISIS...I still find it hard to believe that Varsity students wouldn't know how universal the word Yoga is ? Funny enough I probably am more aware of the perceptions of this campaign agaisnt white people than you may think. I would like to share something with you that I think you will find interesting but before I do I need you to be honest Do you think there is a campaign in some sectors of society to undermine white people ? Can you give some examples in your opinion. Any examples I just want context "?

Dude ....seriously ...wtf What is wrong with you Canadians, that article is an example of what I call " First World Privilege Blindness " It makes no sense...so they felt the name " yoga " was inappropriate and now the class have to be cancelled So the real issue here is how egregiously ignorant those people are. Yoga is a universal name, there are Yoga classes at every single gym in South Africa. Its like " spinning class" .....Volo I cannot believe Varsity students could have such little global understanding of something like a Yoga class That story is embarrassing

Okay I watched both those videos .....the second one must be one of the WORST and inaccurate assessments of the Syrian reality I have ever seen Qistina please stop watching videos from this website, you will get the wrong idea of the West and what motivates them....its very biased and displays a very narrow view of what the West does , What has happened to Ron Paul? Was he always so anti-American and he seems to ramble and makes terrible assumptions I disagreed with almost everything he said ...it was really bad So no I don't agree at all with either of those guys

Foot-binding or people defending it? If the former, I'm pretty sure it no longer happens. Okay good to know, I hadn't heard of it I don't mind people defending it...I can't see how you could reasonably make a point justifying it ? But I would listen ...I doubt it would change my mind at all and I'll make that clear I am saying that CIA mimic the end time prophecy in Al Qaeda/ISIS creation, that's why it is a FALSE FLAG....the reason is they want Muslims suporting them , "oh look! The Black Flag army!" Ah yes we should discuss the CIA.....do you believe they created ISIS, why would you think that ?

It doesn't matter if you believe or not, but talk about this issue, you can't escape it. If you refuse to consider what i am talking about, you will be blind on what happening. For example, why ISIS/Al qaeda and Muslim Terrorist using Blak Flag, do you know? I already explained why they are using Black Flag. Up to you to understand or just being an atheist jerk. Oh i forgot that i already mention in earlier posts that atheists are deuchbags... Don't worry I took no offense to what you said about atheists Of course I can understand when you explain a religious reason for something like the black flag but if you trying to explain why ISIS exists and what motivates them and you tell me its because of some prophecy then I wouldn't get it I took a Women's History course at uni and when the topic of foot-binding was brought up the majority agreed its a practice we have no business critiquing or judging as Westerners. Thankfully the lecturer took the stance of "you're all ****ing stupid, foot-binding is barbaric". Yeah, I have no issue criticizing an unnecessary, abusive and archaic practice like foot-binding I am surprised it still happens

[x] doubt But I honestly wouldn't be surprised. I definitely don't believe this ..its a scurrilous example of anti-Western propaganda

Qistina I enjoy these debates with you but we need to be honest with each other about anything we don't understand I am an atheist so even though I respect all religions I don't believe in any religious scriptures So when you make a post that is about religion as a reason for something you believe it doesn't mean anything to me. I don't mean to offend you and suggest what you should post but if you want me to logically understand your point please use something outside of religion or I just wont get it

Their purpose is to spread chaos, that is their job, making people busy, and overthrow Muslim regimes...they are Al Qaeda, FSA, and all those gang of hooligans, they are also criminals. Do you seriously believe they are religious? AlBaghdadi is said to be their caliph, it's a joke. In hostory there was only 4 caliph, the first 4 after prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) passed away. The caliphate is ELECTED by majority, you can say it is quite democratic, not in the way of modern democracy but still democratic in a way. That's how a caliph is elected. A caliph is NOT ONLY for a country but to the WHOLE Muslims. That is what "Khalifah" mean. Since the early era it was only Arabs, so the 4 caliph only managing the Arabs. But then when Islam spreading outside Arabia, there is a problem because non-Arabs don't want to be ruled by Arab caliph, that's the first break in Muslim politic, this break creating two sects as we know as Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah and Syiah. After the 4 caliph, there is no more caliph, Muslims are govern by own leaders, monarch of own regions...Umayyad, Abbasid, Andalus, Fatimid, Ottoman ect....all these are of different races and different territory Umayyad - Syrian Abbasid - Persian Andalus - Spanish Fatimid - Egyptian Ottoman - Turk During that time, Muslims agree that the most powerful and influential leader will become a patron of all others...example Ottoman become the patron for all existing Muslim countries (including Malay kingdoms), all pay respect and tributes. It is not a caliphate anymore but the title "Khalifah" is given to the leasder of the powerful country who being a patron is "just because" respect Who elect AlBaghdadi to become a caliph of all Muslims? No one Yes but ISIS doens't care about the history of Islam, they are writing there own history based on there views and they think they can create a Caliphate And even though its extremely difficult to calculate the exact numbers of people in ISIS they are about 20,000 to 30,000 strong so we can't just say " no once cares what they think " http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/isis-by-the-numbers-how-big-strong-and-rich-the-militant-organization-may-be-1.2746332

True. When I linked that statistic, I didn't mean to imply that Russia is bombing Syrian cities indiscriminately. It's still tragic though. Russia faces the same problem in Syria that NATO has faced in the Kosovo War, and that Israel has repeatedly faced in Gaza: Fighting a paramilitary organization which has entrenched itself inside inhabited cities. No modern country has yet found a good way to carry out such battles without killing many civilians as well. The brutal truth is that "1 dead civilian per 1 dead enemy soldier" is considered an unusually 'good' ratio in such battles, by historical comparison. I don't often disagree with you but on this post and the general point you making I do The West tries very hard to not kill civilians...in fact it gets heavily criticized when it does Russia will now be facing the same scrutiny as the West faces so I'm not going to say " hey Russia, its okay you not being more cautious with your bombing campaign and you killing civilians " I am sure that some of the major military campaigns the Russians were involved in, Chechnya and Afghanistan, things like collateral damage and killing of civilians wasn't a major consideration...that has now changed and Russia needs to be aware of this And Israel also can't get a pass for its heavy handed retaliation attacks in Gaza and number of civilians killed but I blame Hamas more for this for actually launching attacks from civilian areas, Its clear that Hamas doesn't care at all about the plight of the Palestinians...its a digrace But Israel isn't helping itself by how it retaliates ...for example how they destroy whole houses And Israel is a friend to the West so the perception people have of it matters to me ,

Serously, do you believe they are creating a country called "Islamic State"? To run a country is not as easy as the media want you to believe, you cannot just make a band of hooligan with guns and they become the ministers of your new country handling economy, health, education, work force, security, and all those stuff. A new country need administrations, ministeries, not only that, just look at your own country... It's a fantasy injecting in your mind....holding territories doesn't make a country, it's like gangsters or mafia holding their territories Is this look like they're running a country to you? Yes you are correct, ISIS doesn't own a country. They have used there military superiority to effectively hijack and occupy land that is owned by other countries. ISIS will never achieve there objective of a Caliphate in that region....I think this is common knowledge But that doesn't change the fact they do control territory, its not a land or a Caliphate. Resources in this territory are used to fuel there military campaign and they enforce a particular brutal and anachronistic interpretation of Sharia law So I know they will never achieve a Caliphate but that doesn't change the fact they need to be destroyed in those areas of Iraq and Syria

"Their" war? Remind me who helped create ISIS in the first place? Well if they are trying to take their country it is their war regardless of the cause. Kind of lame to outsource a direct threat. I have to say Darkpriest does raise a good point, I wonder at what point do you give up believing your country can be saved from some kind of internal or external threat and effectively become a refugee? Can we blame the Syrians, there circumstances are unique in the sense that they have received no meaningful military help from there Arab neighbors....I see this in Africa sometimes. The AU just ignores a conflict, yes certain countries will take in war refugee, and the result is millions of citizens as time goes on are forced to leave there country ..and become homeless And if the AU had the political will and real interest they could have defeated the likes of Boko Haram and Al-Shabaab years ago. I can see the ME has a similar issuse

Historically, yes, during some periods. For example, Sweden during the period of 1920 to 1976. But then you will have to compare to other countries during the same period. More recent things you could look at is what the SPD in Germany has done since 1998, the SPÖ in Austria, the most famous Social Democrat party currently in govnerment is possibly the PS in France. Closer to where you live you have the SWAPO, FRELIMO and MDC parties in your neighbouring countries. They are of course influenced by the specific African conditions, but essentially they are the African counterparts of European Social Democrat parties. Thanks Ros....you really clever and have good general knowledge...what do you do for a living if you don't mind sharing?

Okay I see...but what if I do think she is being sincere and really believes what she posts...that wouldn't be Poes Law right?

I think she does believe what she says ....but I may be wrong?

State funded health care, higher minimum wages, expanded Social Security with private entities being more tightly regulated and higher taxes. Essentially pay more in taxes, get more benefits, and Wall Street will be kept on a tighter leash. Okay so that doesn't seem unreasonable ? What does expanded Social Security entail....the only real criticism I have with what you posted is I get concerned when people talk about things like " more regulation in Wall Street or the Private sector " ...there is already enough monitoring and government intervention IMO But where will the money come from to provide all these services ...or is that not a consideration? Expanded social security means higher payouts to recipients. His idea to fund it is to eliminate the limit on how much income the 4.2%(?) SS tax rate is based on. He wants to tax Wall Street more(likely a combination of eliminating loop holes and adding new brackets) and break up "Too Big To Fail" banks. Okay thanks for explaining ....I like some of his ideas but I'm not so excited about others Oh well at least this a hypothetical debate because its not like he will be the Democratic candidate "Democratic Socialism" is a synonym for "Social Democracy". Social Democracy is the largest left-wing movement in the world and thus is a very vague label. It is a matter of opinion of it is a good ideology of course, but it is far from vacuous at least, it is very real, in fact I would say that with the existence of the Socialist International and the Progressive Alliance, Social Democracy is the largest (somewhat) unified political movement in the world (and thus by extension, in the history of mankind). So what Sanders is trying to say that he belongs to is far from a "new type of ideology", as far as practical results go, social democracy might be the easiest ideology to find out more about by looking at the countries which have been ruled by Social Democratic parties, and their legacy. What countries have governments that are " Social Democracy's and what is your definition of this type of ideology in practical terms and what type of change would be see in the USA is this was implemented ? I imagine the Scandinavian countries follow something like this?

Sure...its not an NDA but they did leak information about games that Ubisoft and Bethesda were trying to keep confidential..it must be very frustrating for these publishers\developers to have no control over this type of thing...I can truly empathize with them Isnt that why they were blacklisted..or am I missing something?