BruceVC

Strange that they think this development somehow humiliates Obama ....the USA was never prepared to commit to Syria unless it received UNSC support Obama made the right decision, a legal one. Why should he feel embarrassed ?

First of all, though, it's dead wrong. And after that, when asking why it's being said anyway, being "anti-West" usually is a good guess. Denying that aggression and interventions from US, EU and NATO don't have any role in current refugee crisis is just as much denying reality as saying that there is no climate change, especially such where humans play part. Of course like every complex issue there is no single cause behind them and no singular point of time that could be pointed out to be the start, but still denying it happening is just dishonest and putting one's head in sand. Also claims of "anti-West" are usually most dishonest because there are no singular West and people from the "West" that are critical towards so called actions of "West" aren't usually any way "anti-West", but people that don't agree at least with all actions that their leadership has decided to do, which as itself is very "West"-like mindset and way to think, because it is "Western way" to question and criticize actions by our governments. I would go even so far that people that yell "anti-West" when people criticize actions of our governments are more "anti-West" than those who criticize those actions. I'm sorry to disagree with you again but I fail to see how the US, EU and NATO are responsible for Syria. This civil war was caused by the Arab Spring I'm happy to read any links you can find. You see this is an important because if you right then I woulds say the West needs to take some refugees but once again why should they if they had nothing to do with it ? The ME surly needs to "Anti-Western" is just a term I use to describe people who basically dislike the West, don't trust the West or tend to blame the West for things its not responsible for. There will always be people on every forum who dislike the USA or the UK..its normal but I just like to know why

Thats been an interesting post, I knew some of it but most I didn't Thanks for sharing I'm interested why you think Putin is reasonable? He is directly involved in destabilizing Ukraine which should be something you condemn as he is basically involved in a domestic war?

Well not by itself but we both know there are other things that inevitably come up Why have I misunderstood you? Do you believe in the West and the USA? I assumed because of other things you have said

So I'm not trying to paint an overly positive picture but I have been thinking about this and its not as bad as you think So remember these are very different Muslims to what you are use to, they have lost everything....its all gone. They would have very little faith in Syria or any country in the ME. Think about it they have made a dangerous and difficult to get to the EU. I suspect they will be thankful and grateful and will want to commit to Western culture but keep there faith...nothing wrong with that. You won't see them complaining and criticizing there respective EU country I may be wrong so let me know if I'm wrong

Dude I know I shouldn't laugh but this was seriously one of the funniest posts I have ever read ...the way you describe it " Send 'em to Sweden. The self loathing Swedes can't get enough of these " ... is that accurate ...its very funny if true There is some logic to this as well....let the EU countries that want them absorb them. Where do you live again? Its not fair to force this type of social expectation down on countries that just dont want this type of problem or really know they can't deal with it. Think of Drowsy and Serbia ....is it really reasonable to suddenly want the Serbs to take in Muslims? It wasn't that long that numerous Serbs were indicted for war crimes in wars against Muslims And its not that I dont think Serbia couldn't pretend to be fine with it ...but why should they have to pretend

You asked me an the other person why we were anti-western. I corrected your assumption being that I'm not anti-western, but in opposition to the institution of compulsory governance, known as The State. I'm not sure what there is to explain. Okay fair enough, let me clarify. What do you mean by "certain western States presently reign as the greatest menace to my own life "...what states and where do you live that you think your life is in danger Why do you say " particular governments highest on my animosity list would likely be different" why do assume you would resent a government in another time or another place? Do you find you just generally don't trust or like governments and its natural?

I'm not anti-west, I'm anti-State. At this particularly moment in history, and that which is most relevant to my life directly, certain western States presently reign as the greatest menace to my own life and the broader world. Had I lived at a different point in history, or even geographically in the present, the particular governments highest on my animosity list would likely be different. Can you explain what you mean by giving examples, I dont understand your point ?

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/09/09/politics/russia-syria-military-buildup-kerry-lavrov/index.html So this type of thing really annoys me ....surly the Russians can't think that by helping Assad it will change anything? Also there will be more refugees now but guess this doesn't bother the Russians as they don't have to deal with them

I also pledged Heroes Quest nostalgia

China would beg to differ... What's unreasonable about China? They built themselves up out of post WWII misery to a great power without exploiting, bombing or impoverishing half the planet along the way. Consequently they expect no one to go around telling them what to do in their own country, and ignore when others do. Doesn't sound unreasonable to me. I admire the Chinese in certain ways, they created a growing economy ,8 % growth per year and were an export driven economy The issues with them is they are a one party state and they werent a Democracy ....this should be an issue But the real risk is that they weren't transparent in there economic data and now they are facing a real slowdown which is dragging down South Africa . They tried to artificially interfere in there stock market ..and that goes against conventional economics...and thats why they lost trillions in the stock market free fall So South Africa should have aligned with the West in there economic investment

My friend I can help you, I follow SJ causes. There is no hypocrisy in that once you understand the context..come join me You will feel a much more liberated and fulfilled person once you get into the habit of judging people with no feeling of remorse ...oh to be honest some people will not like you but you need to accept that and remember you need to make posts and decisions on the principle and not what you think people may say Remember Bruce, the urge to save the world is only a false front for the desire to rule it. So the question us are you a part of the plot or a dupe? Good question, yes sometimes it gets frustrating because I don't agree in certain cases where there are leaders who run countries and there citizens suffer ...like North Korea But I have learnt to focus on things I have some understanding and influence on ...like SJ issues in Western countries and always Africa So its no dupe and there are real success stories, like the gay marriage bill in the USA

Yeah I tend to agree, people are frustrated ...we should let them vent

The important thing is if you want to make it. But now I am curious, so go ahead I want to read it. Okay, I was fine not writing it but since you asked. I'm going now to meet a girlfriend for coffee so when I get back

You know we cant do that I see all this turmoil as part of the overall Arab Spring so this is a form of catharsis. The ME should become stronger after this....mmmm I'm not sure if I believe this but it seems the right thing to say

What read are you talking about ?

Guys I'm going to give you all one more chance...does anyone want me to make this post about GG Remember I wont make it unless someone asks

A fair point, but also too dramatic with the spilling over of course, especially seeing as birth rates are dropping across the world. http://www.prb.org/publications/datasheets/2014/2014-world-population-data-sheet/data-sheet.aspx And as you can see, basically we just need to help Africa now with literacy and development now. No need for hyperbole, no need for exaggerations, lets take this discussion at face value - there is no "crisis", but we certainly benefit a lot more by helping nations help themselves. Especially because he's right in the fact that its basically the better offs that leave, which is a huge problem for the country they flee from. Don't mind the gumballs falling all over the place, you only make it a dramatic effect if you wish so. About African refugees, what i don't get is despite less child birth, a significant rise in standard of living, the amount of refugees increase every year. Maybe Ghadaffi was right after all, he was the wall protecting Europe :-/ Back to the refugees in europe, there's been a huge influx of somalis and iraqis at the border between Finland and Sweden in Lapland of all places. Authorities are of course completely confused and do not know what to do with them. So much for those Syrians. Here's a perspective of an ex-pat Syrian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHFnvFbThDE That picture of the dead Syrian child upset me a little but then I moved on but it really resonated with media in South Africa and suddenly everyone was talking about it ....and I wondered why I am not concerned with the Syrian war and then I realised why. I travel to the ME for work, I follow events there and I have friends living there. So at the moment these are the conflicts in the ME that influence the world in different way The interminable Israel vs Palestinians conflict : Not much to say on this depressing conflict The Libya Civil War : First it was just an internal tribal war now ISIS is involved .. Egypt : Its now run by a military junta ....and funny enough the people seem fine with this. But there have been terrorist attacks and a very draconian implementation of the law. Also they bombed ISIS in Libya Yemen: The Iranians and Saudis are involved in some inexplicable Proxy war, why is Yemen so important to them, and the place is awash with Al-Qaeda sympathizers Iraq : Ouch... a real mess. You have tribal Sunni not aligned to the current government. ISIS running wild, a basically separatist Kurd region and an ineffective and corrupt military Syria: Not much to say except I hope military intervention isnt vetoed by members of the UNSC like Russia and China Lebanon : A strange failure to remove garbage in Beirut eventually led to fighting in the streets and a complete shutdown of the government Iran: Arguably the most powerful Arab military country they are a very important player with serious influence over Iraq, Syria and groups like Hezbollah...thanks goodness for the negotiations What more you say? Surly you jest ...nope so against all those real conflict we have Refugees from Libya, Syria, Yemen and other places all over the place...destitute and desperate Turkey is also fighting ISIS and fighting its own Kurds Al-Qaeda still sets off bombs in market places and attacks Mosques So yeah I'm decentralized to horrendous violence in the ME

First all the ME countries must do there part then the West can get involved , the Syrians are Muslims FFS so it would be great to actually see the Muslim world take responsibility. But no as usual its always the West who has to make the real effort. Yet it will still get criticized and attacked and accused of Colonialism It is actually Muslim majority countries that currently do most for the Syria crises and West actually does quite little. As currently Muslim majority countries give most aid for Syrian, they do most of the air strikes against ISIL, they take most of the refugees and they take most of the economical hits that said crises cause. But currently everybody look after their own interest instead actually trying to find real solutions to the crises and probably hoping that crises fill burn themselves out without need of much of actual effort, but currently it seems that those hopes will not come true anytime soon and especially so that those crises don't create new crises closer to home. I don't like disagreeing with you because we often agree on almost all SJ issues, you are a very reasonable liberal whose opinion is actually shaped on his real life experiences so I can always understand where you coming from. But I need to correct a few things about your view on this matter as I want you on my side and when I'm finished I'm sure you will agree So statistically of course some ME countries that border Syria have taken in Syrians, Turkey has 2.1 million Syrians. But here is the problem, all Syrian refugees are not integrated but kept in Refugee Camps....they are safe, have meager supplies and have some services but they can't work in the outside world or travel freely. They just stay in the camps, its not a very nice life This would be considered inhumane in Western countries and not be allowed. I didn't want to mention this before because it is shameful that the Syrians are literally seen as outsiders and NO effort in these ME countries is made to integrate them. When the West integrates refugees it properly integrates them. They get housing, benefits and citizenship. So please don't think for a second when we talk about " accepting Syrian refugees" this means the same effort and intergration for the West and ME Now the aid point, people say " the Saudi give aid to Syria" ( and this applies to all countries ) but lets break this down. The Saudis do give aid to the free Syrian army fighting in Syria, they are the main ones shipping weapons and they are very involved in the war as one of the main backers of forces opposed to Assad. I dont have an issue with this, its good that the Saudis are getting more hands on in the ME and not expecting the West to do it. But these refugees are coming out from ISIS territories. If anything the Saudis should feel responsible for this. Why cant they take in tens of thousands of Syrians, I have worked in Saudi Arabia for 3 months and trust me that country has loads of space and empty desert where they could build refugee camps Yes I agree that there is a cost to maintaining these "camps " but guess what ...do you know how much aid these ME countries have been given by the international community? The EU has given 3.9 Billion Euro alone ...don't think for a second these ME countries don't accept aid. So I'm not sure where this economic issue is ? So in summary the ME has done very little meaningful effort for the Syrians ....and there are countries that even refuse to house any Syrians. We need to get to a point where the ME must take responsibility for its own social issues ...the West can't carry the load because it creates a constant cycle of lack of responsibility And Im tired of it because despite all this compromise the West is still resented and blamed

You funny...it probably seems like I just want to someone to say " please tell us something we dont know " and I need someone to almost want me to post But no...I post when I want and where I want as we all should. But this is different, it will be very enligthening to many people on this thread but its also complex as its a history of GG So I will post it if someone asks me ...I'm not that committed to make the post by myself

Guys now that I dont really follow this whole GG\anti-GG development anymore I have some new insights into the causes and motivations behind the social and psychological reasons behind GG\anti-GG that I doubt most of you will be aware of Funny enough I'm more critical of Anita and some of the subsequent events than ever before. But it will be a few paragraphs so I won't make the post unless someone asks

Yeah I dont buy the whole " they are human beings who are suffering and we must accept them " because I see this as patronizing and just a weak attempt to convince the citizens of Western countries to " do there part " .But none of these Syrians will be extremists, as far as I know they come from the ISIS controlled areas so they just be normal moderate Muslims First all the ME countries must do there part then the West can get involved , the Syrians are Muslims FFS so it would be great to actually see the Muslim world take responsibility. But no as usual its always the West who has to make the real effort. Yet it will still get criticized and attacked and accused of Colonialism Funny enough the West has been pressured and major guilt has been put on all countries to assist. So this highlights the fact the West really has a conscious and does things it doesn't need to but it feels will be for the greater good

You will be surprised how many people are happy to live and work in the UK and just be safe and know there institutions work They aren't that concerned with rising up the corporate ladder, they will create there own "Little Syria " communities but will be loyal to the UK and won't care about some of these extremist ideals you see in the UK from some members of the Muslim community

What's wrong with immigrants are bad attitude? Clearly, there is no loss from not allowing them to come to Sweden. Whatever else you might argue for the "pro" side, the "contra" side has no negative effects. If Sweden is a democracy, and a lot of people don't want to share their living space with muslims from the Middle East, what about it makes them nutjobs exactly? From what I read the multi-culti mantra isn't doing so well in Malmo, maybe more Swedish cities should become like it? Drowsy you realize you will have to start practicing to say things like " I love foreigners " ...." I open my home to immigrants " as once Serbia joins the EU that is what will be expected I'm joking of course, I agree that certain integration takes time and cant be forced on people. But thats fine, it shouldn't be forced I did laugh several times over the last few days during the numerous CNN live interviews where they always seemed to be filming scenes of hotspots and tension as the immigrants made there trek to get to Germany but you can see how woefully unprepared countries like Hungary and Serbia are to deal with this type of event. But they have been told " be nice on the International TV Channels " so you see these scenes of smiling Hungarian officials pretending to really care about the plight of the Syrians And frankly I can't blame Serbia or Hungary, these countries are not use to this type of thing and its not like the ME countries have ever done anything for them I'm

Yep, typical, as I said. As for the migrants, apparently there's a column of them marching to Sweden. Heck of a trip. Malc Canada needs to take some responsibility for the Syrian refugees ..I know you feel we ignore you guys and consider you our backwater simple cousins but now is the time to step up . All Western countries are taking some Syrians....I guess the best way to prepare yourself is really to ask yourself " how can I make a Syrian family's life better " Obviously I can make suggestions but I would prefer you thought of your own ways of welcoming them