Nightshape

I hate 1UP.

Me too...

... Yeah, stay the hell away from VB... Try C# or Python. They're both free. You can get Visual Studio Express for C# free from microsoft.

One already exists... http://www.ddo.com/

Feed/Teach Man->Fish You can't always have good collaboration between well-informed and educated coworkers operating in a professional manner with a communal interest in aesthetic quality when you first wake up in the morning. GET ME MY COFFEE AND A WELL-OILED CREATIVE TEAM COLLABORATING IN REAL TIME WITH THE FORESIGHT TO SELF MANAGE THEMSELVES AND UNLIMITED PROGRAMMING RESOURCES TO SUPPORT THEM ALSO I LIKE SOME WHISKEY IN MY COFFEE THANKS!!1111 But if you cultivate that sort of thing, you'll find it happens more than it does not. People rise to the challenge. Most people prefer to get engaged in their work product if they are properly managed. Outsourcing the art with some direction designed to provide consistency and level designers ignoring visuals and aesthetics might suffice in some circumstances, but it's not going to predictably produce quality levels. I'll end with some mealy-mouthed sentimentalism: People often meet your expectations, no matter how low. Expect little of people, and you will get little. Expect a lot of people, and sometimes you will still get little, but sometimes you will get lots. The net gain in expecting a lot of people is, therefore, apparent. [/didactic] ... I think you missed what I was getting at, you can't have them in the same room meaning that fast iteration of assets isn't an option, that doesn't mean anyone lowered any expectations. I'm not certain at what you're getting at.

I have a hard time taking your posts very seriously, since you don't give any reasons for your statements, and neither does Nightshape for that matter. Yes, every game has flaws, even KOTOR, so what? I'm telling you why ME is a bad game, and has some flaws is not enough of a reason. And which flaws does KOTOR have exactly that are similar to ME? You never say, just make general and ambiguous statements. So far as bias, where's my bias coming from? From disagreeing with your opinion? I can tell you my opinions are very objective. I thought KOTOR was great, Jade Empire was a noticeable step down in quality, and ME was a complete disaster as an RPG, and I can give you reasons for each of those statements. Where's the bias in that? Please give me some of your objective opinions, because I've been asking for several pages.

Combat feels too fast and unprecise. It's basically a wild monkey-fest. But then again, I've pretty high standards when it comes to FPS, so I think I'll stick with the PC-centric shooter makers (Valve, Monolith etc.) Halo as a PC only shooter would have bombed, it's about as good as it gets on XBOX 360 mind.

I do detect a certain amount of bia's.

Firstly, you feel that the levels are missing a central theme, it worked fine for me as I certainly didn't feel that way when I was playing, but you're entitled to feel that way. Arguing aesthetics is hard, as it's highly subjective, and doesn't really lead anywhere, sure we could use words such as consistance, focus, empty, unpopulated etc... But that's only half the story, I certainly feel that the levels still retain a focus on gameplay regardless of aesthetics. I've only entered into this conversation to attempt to instill some clarity, the package as a whole is achieved via art direction, level designers, and environment artists. Simply saying the level design is bad appears like an attack on the level designer, but with further investigation, it's the product as a whole you're unhappy with. Also "Montgomery Markland", is not the only developer to have responded to you, he is the only Obsidian Developer, who has responded.

Torque gamebuilder is a bugger horrible piece of streaming *BLEEP*.

Fable *urgh*... It looks better on PC... And that's about it.

In the age of asset outsourcing (something which is becoming more and more common for larger companies), you can't always have this perfect desire scenario of artist and level designer working as one unit. This is why good solid art direction is so important, and it takes a certain level of skill to achieve the desired results when it's very plausable that the artist may be hundred even thousands of miles away from where the level designer is situation. High production values coupled with solid, clear and concise art direction, along with excellent white boxing of play area's can produce an excellent result. Documentation and communication! With the art direction being a thread stitching everything togeather.

When people speak of levels lacking a theme or relevence at all that's clearly something that went wrong before the level was even created. That seems to be what has most peoples knickers in a twist, sure it could have been a failure of the level design and environment art team, but you'd have to have a downright piss poor unskilled set of folks to achieve that.

I do, because EA will just throw money and bodies at problems opposed to solving it. EA's management culture is absolutely SCREWED! Burnout Paradise cost $42 million, and needed to sell 2.2 million units - It didn't. I admit that it's merely one example, Criterion is an absolute mess now as a result, and looking at EA's previous record with companies that it's bought you can see why I'd be thinking the way I am. See in the past Bioware had to deal with publishers to get games released, now they don't have to deal with that, they just have to deal with EA's absolutely insane management structure.

The theme of an area is part of the Art Directors role, the actual building blocks of it is the level designers role, and the asset content is an environmental artists role. I am not actually disagreeing or agreeing with exact issues, I'm just trying to inform people of roles as structure within the games industry. It's like pointing a finger at the wrong person as the cause of a problem... It's actually someone else who's screwed up. You don't need to tell me about defining roles about creating environments.... I know that the level designer is responsible for all the scripting, placeables and the general layout that serves gameplay purposes etc. The point is just, that this get's a bit blurry in ME, or it seems to me that the envirionment artist just took over the role of the level design as well. As I said, like a movie set, it's functual, but it doesn't offer any interesting gameplay. This is very critical for FPS. Why not for RPGs? Just look how well the maps in HL2, Bioshock etc. come together. It's truly a shining example of how well designer and artists can work together. Bioware has still a lot to learn in that regard. I shouldn't have directed that at you sorry. I think Bioware have a shed load to learn, like not jumping in bed with EA. That said, I don't think they did a terrible job, alot of the set piece's are done very well.

I actually like the game alot, it ranks as one of my favourite. My point is more, don't hammer a level designer for something outside of his control, and his job description, it's kinda like saying it's the rendering programmers fault because an orginal art asset is crap ya know? The citadel isn't a major quest area until the end of the game, it's more a tutorial area with a slow story introduction. You're entitled to your opinion, I think you're wrong and Mass Effect is infact a really good game, but ya know that's all well and good I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. Fact is... If anything it does suffer from bad art direction. Bioware is likely to suffer more and more now that it's part of EA.

The theme of an area is part of the Art Directors role, the actual building blocks of it is the level designers role, and the asset content is an environmental artists role. I am not actually disagreeing or agreeing with exact issues, I'm just trying to inform people of roles as structure within the games industry. It's like pointing a finger at the wrong person as the cause of a problem... It's actually someone else who's screwed up.

My experience tells me you're hammering level design when you mean ART DIRECTION. I personally see clever things as something quite different, the citadel has streaming zones wherever possible, When you enter a lift another area is streamed into memory. That is a "Clever" solution to help aid the level design. It isn't an inherant level design feature. As for the level design itself, I personally got the impression that the citadel was infact HUGE, but the player is only exposed to a few key area's... For me personally they achieved that result by making the level area's they did have fairly large in terms of scope. The citadel was clearly not designed as a play area for shoot outs. As the environments are scaled beyond there requirements you could argue that that actually has a negative impact on the area in regards to how efficiant it is to traverse the citadel, but short cuts are presented as are directions, so that is fairly moot. I can agree with how alot of people feel about how the place looks sterile, personally I liked that about it, underpopulated? Likely a restriction of the engine itself. As an area for quests it's fairly poor, but it does certainly fit within the story. So what is so negative, why does the citadel suck?

I did, and it turned out messy.

For audio try flashkit, as for artwork... Meh, use basic shapes to build the game (programmer art), meanwhile... find someone who is interested in generating artwork for games, tie them up, and force them to work on the artwork until you're happy, then tie them back up for use again later on.

Well you're going to have to explain that one to me... Because I feel like I'm on a whole other book than you. I found ME's level design complemented the gameplay extremly well. Other than the crappy planet generation, I cannot think of a single instance of bad LEVEL design which had a negative impact on the gameplay experience, and didn't work within the confinds of the gameplay mechanic. You mention the Citadel, and complain (from what I can see) about NPC's... Too few, too many, who knows... I'm not grasping your angle.

I find it hard to even consider the general planets as levels... They seem procedurally generated(Doesnt not mean they are).

You mentioned level design when infact, I think you mean environment artwork... Level design is generic as it is concerned with gameplay flow etc... Most level design in ME is influenced by it's shooting gameplay mechanic, so it's viable. Halo has VERY BAD level design, and by Halo I MEAN HALO!, Not Halo 2 or 3.