Wrath of Dagon

What loophole? And I did make a distinction, the penalty for selling obscene movies to minors would actually be much stricter than the penalty for violent video games under this law. Anyway, you haven't explained how such a distinction would make a practical difference, except for the usual defensive gamer paranoia. Looking at the actual law, they set the threshhold of prohibited game so high, it really would only conceivably apply to only a few games, may be Postal and Manhunt 2, and even there defense could probably claim artistic merit, so in that respect also the law is a political statement rather than an effective public policy instrument.

That guy is a genius. First he says that video games will be treated like obscene material, then he says obscene material is illegal to sell to anyone, then he says videogames will be treated like Hustler. So is Hustler illegal to sell to anyone? There's a big difference between this law and the obscenity law. It's illegal for anyone to provide obscene material to a minor, even a parent. Under this law parents could still allow their children to play violent video games. As far as all that bull about retailers being afraid to sell legitimate games to minors blah blah, why aren't they afraid to sell R rated or even unrated DVD's? A prosecutor could certainly make a very plausible case that some of that stuff is obscene and the penalties for selling it to minors are much higher.

Saying Bush lied is a lie in itself. You have no evidence of that, and no one came out and admitted that.

Yeah, if the law actually had any effect, it probably would affect the "creative" direction, because it's well known M rated games are normally targeted at the 13+ demographic. But the law even if upheld will have close to 0 effect, so it's not going to affect anything.

OK, I finally figured out how to do it. You go into KSE and select a save game before the battle on Telos. Click on +globals, then +numerics. Find 262_hk_factory, and set it to 1. Click apply and then commit, it'll then overwrite the savefile. Then after you're done with Atris, you'll get HK at the factory.

It's just ESA's case to the court, it doesn't prove anything. I know they put it all back, and it's still rated M. It was never rated AO.

No, you're wrong. You can't restore content in a free patch and keep the rating, ESRB would jump all over them. They modified the American content at the request of Atari, and did not submit the original to ESRB at all. Later they released the Director's Cut or whatever it's called, but it still has the M rating so far as I know. Too bored to read all of your link, but looks like industry bull as I'd expect.

Except that R rated movies don't have the same fines chasing them around as this law is trying to impose on M rated games. (Which is exactly why people are trying to stop this). Then it's just a slippery slope to censor all sorts of violence. Everything is a slippery slope. And again, it's not censorship if it only applies to sales to children. If they make R rated movies illegal to sell to children, I wouldn't cry over that either. Edit: Btw, the counter argument has been staring us in the face all this time. In Britain it's illegal to sell games below the age they're rated, have 17+ games disappeared from stores? Edit2: Just came across this article about some stuff Yee said: http://www.vg247.com/2010/10/29/yee-esrb-i...se/#more-126740 It shows he's pretty ignorant, and is quite unfair to the ESRB. Of course the article also made a mistake, The Witcher never got an AO rating.

Bad PR has nothing to do with something being illegal, bad PR is exactly why most retailers don't carry porn, not because it's illegal to sell it to minors. So long as they carry R rated movies, they'll carry M rated games. Unless you believe people will stop watching R rated movies. Edit: Bad PR is exactly why most small video rental shops would carry porn, but the big chains wouldn't. Had nothing to do with being afraid of the fines, they were simply trying to protect their image as a family-friendly place to rent.

This Dagon, I know for a fact that gamestop will not sell Adult Only games because the hassle of having to deal with the rating is to much. IF they did, they would still be accepting and selling the original print of Grand Theft Auto San Andreas, which got re-rated AO after hot coffee. What's the hassle? They have a policy of not selling M rated games to minors anyway, no? The other thing to realize is that none of the consoles will allow AO rated games, at least in the US. And Gamestop isn't too interested in selling PC games anyway from what I hear.

The law isn't based on rating, but on specific definition of violence. It's not illegal to sell AO games to minors, it's illegal to sell obscene games to minors. Most AO games probably wouldn't meet that definition, since a game gets an AO for stuff that a movie only gets an R. Btw, I think Gamestop once said they were considering selling AO games.

You have no evidence that regular retailers would've carried obscene materials if they were legal to sell to minors. Retailers carry plenty of stuff that's illegal to sell to minors, as I pointed out before.

There aren't any games going off the shelves, this is just industry fear mongering.

Only 100K on PC. Shame on you pirates. But yeah, VGChartz probably has to be taken with a grain of salt. Edit: I wonder if that counts on-line sales anyway.

When the economy is booming here, there are always labor shortages. Automation doesn't have anything to do with it, not until you can actually completely replace a human being, automation just creates different jobs.

Yes, it sounds like the proposal to privatize Social Security that Bush got beat down for.

In real terms the savings are mostly illusory. You still have the problem of people who are working having to support people who aren't. It doesn't solve the societal problem, only changes the balance sheets.

Nah, they have to be able to **** everything of the opposite sex in the universe. Pfft, if only it were that simple. They also have to be able to **** everything of the same sex. And lets not forget the inter-species stuff. I blame this on the influence of Kirk and Spock.. their "every week one of them gets a different alien / starfleet girl".. Spock did? I think in only one episode, when he had the mating madness.

I'm not sure, they certainly have no problem selling movies like Saw, in fact they put huge disgusting displays of decaying hands all over the store. Edit: Wal-mart won't carry outright pornography, you could argue that some of the explicit lyrics are actually pornographic, it can go way beyond swearing of the kind you get in movies and games. Edit2: Another thought just occurred to me. Even if the M rated games were completely banned (purely hypothetical, unless the Moral Majority is somehow resurrected and takes over the government) almost all the games Calax mentioned would easily qualify for a T rating with very minor changes. The main reason those games are M is to appeal to adolescents who want to think they're mature. Never did figure out why Halo is rated M.

Most stores already have a policy of not selling M rated games or R rated movies to minors, but they still carry them to sell to adults. It's very hard for me to believe Wal-mart would suddenly stop selling M-rated games even though they have no problem selling tobacco, alcohol, firearms, ammunition and R-rated and even unrated movies, all of which are illegal to sell to minors except the movies. Edit: Actually here it's illegal to sell alcohol to anyone under 21, not just minors, not sure if it's the same for tobacco and firearms.

You guys sound like a bunch of raving tea-partiers.

That was my point, retailers still sell tobacco and alcohol even though they're illegal to sell to minors. As far as AO games, most probably would be illegal to sell to minors, since it's illegal to sell any obscene material already, without any new laws. As I explained, most retailers won't carry obscene material, whether legal or not.

That makes no sense. All they have to do is check ID's to sell M rated games. We all know no retailer will touch tobacco or alcohol because they're illegal to sell to minors.

I'm not remembering this very well, but it sounds like you're missing an item. The only one I remember is there's the hound keeper or something like that in an alcove right next to the area where you killed Hanharr. Try to find his body if you haven't already. Also there may be a terminal you need to use next to the escape hatch. You could look at the walkthroughs on gamefaqs.com or may be someone who remembers better will post here.

So your argument is what? Children should be playing M rated games so that they can support production of M rated games for adults? It's not so much misrating as not descriptive enough and/or could use another rating or two, ala pg-13 (or whatever). That is, "Mature/M" titles "may contain more intense violence, blood and gore, sexual themes/content, use of alcohol/drugs, and frequent use of strong language" but on the box itself the descriptions seem stunted/not specific to the game itself, enough. Just my opinion tho. It's like how some R movies are "harder" R' than others, either in violence or sexual content (or both). There also seems to be a missing rating...at least according to wiki...you have Teen which "might be considered unsuitable for children under 12 years of age" and then M, (17+). Is there one in the middle I'm unaware of? Edit: sorry, that sounds confusing. I mean, is there one that might be more like "not for under 14 or 15?" Social mores these days (because of increasing easy access to 'net, movies on TV etc that makes such exposure more common) seem to be that a lot of parents may not mind their 16 year old see a lot of those R rated horror movies, for example, but would object to their 12-13 year old doing so. There's a big difference between 12 and 16/17, imo. Yes, I actually used to be of the same opinion. My feeling was ESRB (which is game industry controlled) refused to introduce a rating between T and M because they didn't want to stigmatize M rated games by making that category exclusively "hard" M. This way parents think "hey Halo is M rated, there's nothing really bad about it, M rated games must be OK for kids", which is what the industry secretely wanted all along. However, in the last few years the problem sort of "fixed" itself. Games have become so crude and violent you really wouldn't want to give a lower than M rating to most of them. The parents are still as clueless as ever though. AO rating means the game is obscene. Most retailers won't carry obscene material, although admittedly they push the edge on unrated DVD's, but that's another story.