bronzepoem

And the skill&talent design

As the 333 version combine skill and talent, a lot of people feel more satisfied than before.I start to think about this question. Do we really need the skill system? In PoE,a charater have four main features:attribute,Talent,Skill,Job.(Race is a minor feature) attribute:constant Talent:Increaing with upgrate Skill:Increaing with upgrate Job: constant Then what do they determine? We also can number 4 kinds of charaters' powers in PoE: 1. combat ability 2. dialogue ability(include scripted interactions,or we can say the "trditional dialogue" is one kind of scripted interactions) 3. movement ability(traveling around the world,removing barriers) 4. the ability of earning asset(items,money,real estate) attribute:1,2,3 Talent:1,2,3 Skill:2,3,4 Job: 1 We can see the talent and skill are very similar.What if we just combine them in a more wise way?Not just roughly add sereval skill points on every talent.We just need to design several new talents(such as crafting apprentice,crafting expert,crafting master,athletics apprentice,athletics expert,athletics master...)We can even design some new non-combat talent such as Smart Trader(decrease the buying price),Leader(easily deal with companions' issues)and so on,then give one charater more talent points for total.Isn't this more clear than now? Before 333 version, the biggest point of skill system is to separate non-combat ability from combat ability,because Tim said that players shouldn't have to choose between magic missile and herbalism. But now Obsidian change their mind.So why don't we straightforward use one talent system? What do you think?

I still remember what Tim Cain said: Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one.

In the past versions, they deleted REPAIR and combined MECHANICS.Finally they put themselves into a very awkward situation:there are only five skills,which means a 6 member team can easily max whole the skills.It jsut likes that you can easily max all the attributes of one character.That make the skill system nonsense.There was no fun in this simple and crude system. So in 333 version,they tired talents and skills. They want to make the skill system more complex,make players thinking,making choice. When you need to thinking in a skill system, you will find RPG pleasure.The start point is good,but the way isn't.When they made the skill system more fun,the talent system was hurt.The freedom of character building was limited.Players' creativity was limited.

As Namutree said - that type of gameplay was in the IE games. I have a whole Let's Play of Icewind Dale where I regularly showcast tactical unit movement in combat https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIRfCmyR7ijJU11xQVn2SXIwmeuajTkom I understand you mean but... sometimes you know, "RTS style" sound not so acceptable for RPG fans,espically a lot of people here didn't play RTS deeply.Your words just scared them~ So just change a word,without "RTS", for example "IWD style","IE style" something like that.Then those people will find "Wow ,that's exactly what I want!"

A system where you pay a larger fee for an expansion pack which can start from the end or the middle of the game, like Tales of the Sword coast for BG1.

Yes,Fighter & Rogue are not so fun，especially rogue. No class build,only like a DEX fighter .Maybe it's powerful, but really not interesting.

The reaction to Blood Mages in DA was crap. Even Wayne could become blood mage.

See, for what it's worth, that could actually be pretty cool, too. If you have a Rogue, then maybe you can run some kind of stealth operations on enemy forces, etc. via the stronghold management and/or scripted interactions. However, that's still very much specifically scripted scenarios, and not just "I want to actively control my Rogue around the whole castle, randomly pickpocketing every person I come across." It's still not really sandbox pickpocketing. At the very least, it's a quest, one in which the only important thing is separating the guard leader from his magic sword that would otherwise prevent you from staging your assault very easily. Nothing is really gained there by having a "Freely attempt to pickpocket anyone, whenever!" mechanic in-place. Also, it's really hard to pick"pocket" a bastard sword. If it's strapped to someone, you're going to have a tough time stealing it. Maybe you steal it while he's nodding off and it's propped against a table 2 feet away? Or maybe you just knock him out and take it. *shrug*. Either way, stealth operations would be pretty cool, and could be handled by something similar to the scripted interactions. Or, a quest-like mission with your Rogue and some peeps from your stronghold to back him up. Or just your main party, etc. Yes,of course! I love scripted interactions.I love those thieve quests.So that's why I imagine this HYBRID pickpocketing system! Please understand me.In my idea, of course you will get all these quests and scripted interactions.NOTHING will be lost.Only more.

You made two basic mistakes here. 1. A good designed RPG will never be "destroyed" by players. If a game could be "destroyed" by players,it just means there aren't enough consequences for players' choices.please throw it into garbage can. 2. A good designer will never "punish" players. It's the "NPCs in the game" Who want to punish you.The designers?They only support consequences and fun. Let's review this interview to Obsidian： “Theoretically, you could,” replies senior producer Brandon Adler, chuckling. “Normally if you attack a villager, they would all go hostile and kinda **** you up. You can kill [important quest-givers] too. It’s possible that we could change that, but right now, everybody is fair game. So if you kill somebody that’s key to a quest, you’ll probably get a screen pop-up saying, ‘You killed an important NPC’ or something like that. But there’s only a few people in the game that are that important where if you killed them you’d just kill the entire quest line. And for the most part, we’re getting around that. If you kill someone, we might just divert the quest in a different way. We’re trying to handle it pretty gracefully.” Even free attack won't destroy PoE,what's can pickpocketing do?! In fact, free attack is one kind of gameplay,"rage" role-play.That's why Obsidian design try to "handle it pretty gracefully".You said "Immune"?I guess you just didn't play Fallout2. MCA said, "We’re not trying to control you. Play how you want." If a game always tell players:"Do this,this is right.That is wrong,don't do that otherwise I will punish you."This is not a game,but a training. In a real justice system,those normal gamers will feel："there are guards in the city，so I shouldn't pickpocketing. Wow,what's a real world! "And thief role players will feel:"Wow，funny consequence！Let’s challenge the law！"Win-win design. Nothing lose. A real justice system must be work,if you think deeply.

Yes，budget, the damn budget, I know. In fact,it depends. If we remove the "Wanted" content，you will find the budget will decrease to a super low level. What do we need for this risk-reward platform: 1.Several abuse dialogues. 2.The personality setting.All we need to do just add one sentence in the program for these important NPCs :"Reacting as being attacked when be pickpocketed, or link to abuse dialogues. " 3.Reward items. They are already there! Because PoE allow freely attack, there must be a looting setting for many NPCs.We just need to take the part" items in inventory" from looting. OK,that's all for the basic.I'm sure Josh can finish it within 1 hour. Then,the city setting.We can limit it in the big two cities. Then all we need is just a couple of guards,two new maps(prisons),several judgements dialogues. The Disposition platform was already there, just add a "crime" word which only link to guards.How hard could it be! I think Obsidian could finish this job within 2 or 3 days. So we finished~ A very low budget, which pleasure 2 of 11 gamers (Rouges and Chanters).That's a cost-efficient deal! About the "Wanted" content, yes,they are more expansive.So since I‘m not a billionaire who can plegde 1 million more,the only wish will be that we could see it in an expansion，or at least，in mod Imagine that，a huge, dark prison in the eastern desert,which only keep the wanted, terrible murderers, conspirators，most dangerous persons on the land.You have been thrown here by a famous hero.Now you need to get out the hopeless place，a sneak job，a desperate fighting，or to incite a prison violence, depends on your choice. In the deepest cell，a “monster” is locked in.Children will cry when hear his name.You can try to release him, challenge him,or even persuade him，to become one your companion. That's a good expansion! Also I like the "criminal gangs" idea,in a dark room, the mask lord using his unique technique to change your face forever. Then all your reputation in Disposition system back to zero.A second chance. Maybe add some quests to buy the guard leader. Sorry，my imagination went wild. Come back to the combat part. It's my fault didn’t express myself clearly. What I mean was that, for example, you want to offensive a castle，which is neutral to you.You can send your rouge sneak in and steal the guard leader‘s magic bastard sword.Then you can start your attack, and turn this place into battlefield. Of course not to pickpocketing a enemy with red circle.

Although I know that a IE style pickpocketing won't occur in PoE, I still think it's worth to discuss it more. At least, could be a brainstorm. In PoE,pickpocketing will work in scripted interaction.Maybe someone think it will do the same job.But in fact,there is a huge different between scripted interaction and IE mechanic. IE mechanic is a open way, you can pickpocket anyone you like.That's a freely exploring procession.You can choice target by yourself, maybe this super-armed warrior,that lady wear luxurious clothes,or someone who lived in the beautiful house,something like that.Coordinating with the day and night circle,lighting system and sneak skill,whole the stealing procession chould be very challenging, Full of role-playing feature of rouge! Then add a good reward design, it will support great sense of achievement. And pickpocketing could become part of combat. Like fallout, you can sneak into battlefield to steal enemy's potions or alternate weapon.with a good balance design,that could be a very strategic support to combat skill. In scripted interaction, when you meet a issue, dialogue tell you:"Come on,just steal this guy." Then you make an one second attribute check or skill check. Done.No freely exploring funny, no holding breath. So,scripted interaction is more suitable to describe the content which can't be showed by IE mechanic.Like combat, scripted interaction can describe combat too. But we still need IE mechanic combat. In my opinion, the best design of pickpocketing should be hybrid design,both IE mechanic and scripted interaction. Normally we use IE mechanic, in some "quest" situation or very complex situation, we use scripted interaction. But maybe someone will say:I feel the IE pickpockting mechanic was boring in BG! Yes, I think so. It's not the problem of pickpockting mechanic, but the risk/reward design. The risk design of pickpocketing was very rough. When you failed,everyone attack you, so you must load game.It's neither real nor funny. Why don't we design a C&C system here? Basicly,if the NPC be stolen is a common people with no arm, he will just run away and abuse you.If the guy is a combatant, he may attack you,or not,depend on personality. Anyway,the battle won't involve common NPCs(otherwise it's a barbarian village~) In an orderly city,the C&C will be a little different.The NPC victim will call guards,and the guards will judge you. You can choice accpet or revolt.Only you revolt the judgement ,the situation will be the worst, just like in BG. The judgement depend on your "crime point".Every time you failed in pickpocketing,the "crime point" in Dispositions system will increase. When it is very low, the judgement will only warning and a small amount fine.When it become higher, judgement could be big fine,or imprison(You can break prison, another serious crime).When the crime point become very high, you will become a wanted.Then you will find your wanted papers on the wall,and be pursued by guards,Bounty Hunters,even some famous heros with epic eqiupments(also means epic loot ).Maybe some of your compinions want to leave you, some criminal gangs want to recuit you,and support some assumed identities. Then the reward design,it not bad in BG,but still not perfect.Usually the reward were money and equipment.But we could add a few new stuff, for example,an item lead to a new quest, or some item which show you more information(useful,or just for fun). Above is the basic C&C on my mind.Then let's add a few quirks.For example, when you pickpocketing a rouge master.Maybe his reaction is just laugh at you.For more funny, maybe he put a scorpion in pocket.When you fail, you get hurt.If you success, the IE pickpockting mechanic will lead to a scripted interaction:You find there is a scorpion in the pocket.You can choice just leave away,or catch the scorpion and throw it to the poor guy's neck. That's the place I would admire great scripted interaction design. Additional,the "you get what you see" design will be great help too. When you see a guy carry a beautiful pike on his back, the items you can steal from him should include this pike.That's why we always feel funny in Fallout pickpocketing.

Wow~Thank you. I'm too ignorant about it.~

Maybe the Dispositions system is the most creative part in the vedio. For now ,we have seen 5 personnalities in the vedio:Honest,Diplomatic,Passionate,Rational,Benevolent. I guess there will be 10 for total.The others maybe Humor,Selfish,Insidious, and...Chaos?

And it was something I've tried to consistently call out as one of our three foci for the project: exploration of beautiful environments, a reactive story with equally reactive companions, and party-based tactical combat. From the information we get now, exploration is the one I most worry about.

In fact,there is a huge different between scripted interaction and IE mechanic. IE mechanic is a open way, you can pickpocket anyone you like.That's a free exploring procession.You choice target yourself,maybe the super-armed one,maybe the guy wear luxurious clothes,or someone who lived in the beautiful house,or just that green shirt girl coordinate with the day and night circle,and sneak skill.Whole the stealing procession chould be very chanllenging. With a good reward design,it will support great sense of achievement. Second, pickpocketing could become part of combat. Like I said, you can sneak into battlefield to steal enemy's potions or alternate weapon. That could be a very strategic support to combat skill. In scripted interaction, when you meet a issue, dialogue tell you:Come on, steal this guy. Then you make an one second attribute check or skill check. Done. One hundred times boring than IE mechanic way! Scripted interaction is just suitable to describe the content which can't be showed by IE mechanic.Like combat, scripted interaction can describe combat too. Why do we need real combat!

Now I know. The Arcanum style pocketpicking mod.

No matter how many times they put "thievey dialogue" in, The feeling of free exploration has already lost. PST was great for it's great story,not for its basic system. Yes, using text to show C&C is a good way. But not the best way, and of course shouldn't be the only way. Those genius did so wonderful jobs in Fallout & Arcanum. I thought they would keep the valuable experiences in PoE...

But it was such a classic RPG element.I never imagine we will lose it.I still remember the moment I stole the scimitar from Drizzt. It is so funny, when you meet a rich wizard on street,then follow him and try to steal his grimoire.Or sneak into the battlefield,to steal enemy's potions, even alternate weapons. A rouge couldn't pickpocketing could only be called "light fighter". If they just design several “Pickpocketing dialogues”，the feeling of freely exploration will be totally lost. Although the dialogue system in PST was good, We can't deal everything by it.Otherwise it will become a Japanese Gal game.Please use the expressive force of 2D engine itself.It worked so perfectly in Fallout and Arcanum.Now shouldn't we dig more potential of it? Alright. Just let me get away and cry for a while...

HEART BREAKER!Every old-school RPG have pocketpicking,EVERY! Next time I won't throw 1000 bucks anymoreT_T

In old-school RPGs, we always found something out of the system. E.g,most swords are just weapon, suddenly you found a sword which can talking with you. Most of the spells should using to combat or buff, but one day you learn the spell "Wish“.Pocketpicking always get coppers or items，but one day you get a letter which involve you into a plot. Or like that,dialogues usually check attributes, but a few dialogues checked your lore,class,or even what you weared. Rangers usually have the same ability tree,but one of your range companion have a special ability which no one else have. That's the old-school RPG style,set system,but not stick to system.Those out of system elements just like herbs in dish,which are trivial,but support great fun.They make the world alive,not only a mathematics game. So that's what I expect in PoE,design great systems,then hide them deeply.

What about about a paladin of Stealzo, the god of thieves? Yes,that could be. But compare with that,I'm much worry now about a rouge who can't pocketpick on street! By the way, we didn't see the pocketpicking button on UI! Come on, they will give me that, won't they?

I *think* pick-pocketing is part of the 'mechanics' skill - but it only comes up in scripted-interactions (you can't use it like in BG) - so maybe Paladins won't get the option in those interactions. (Josh mentioned in the video that sometimes you'll get different choices based on your class, attributes and equipment). Oh,no! I super unlike this idea. Of course a rouge can pick anyone he like to pick. I have a idea:set a key word"Faith"in disposition system.If a paladin use pocketpicking,the "Faith point" will decrease.After several times pocketpicking ,NPC will react him as a fallen paladin.

Yes. We have previously given details about our skill system, including how Stealth works. As a recap, all characters can invest in the Stealth skill, though certain classes (like rogues) have a head start in that department. You can have characters sneak individually or as a group and the gameplay consists of navigating the Stealth-based radii of your party members around the detection radii of potential enemies. Enemies have two stages to discovering a sneaking character. The first causes them to investigate. Once they get close enough (IF they get close enough), they will fully realize the threat and typically start combat (sometimes dialogue). In both of our class pair updates (rogues + rangers, wizards + druids), we've called out what non-combat skills each class emphasizes, but yes, the skills are largely class-neutral. Dialogue options are also largely class-neutral. Most threshold-based options are opened up based on the character's attributes -- using Perception to notice something, Resolve to threaten someone with scary intensity, Strength to intimidate someone with brute force (or just to smack them around a little), Dexterity to swipe something, etc. Picking these options is not always a path to success, but the attributes are what open them up. The same applies to class-, race-, sex-, or background-based options that pop up. We decided to avoid dialogue skills since it pushes characters to invest in "the dialogue game" or miss out on a ton of enjoyable content. By using as many basic elements of the character as we can to shape dialogue, we keep dialogue open to all sorts of characters, from meat-head fighters to sassy wizards and everything in-between. Attribute-based checks worked well in Planescape: Torment and we think it will work well in PoE as well. How about pocket picking? I can't imagine a paladin or priest who picks pockets.