alanschu

Condescending tone? I suppose. I didn't mean to, but it seemed like you were talking down to me in your previous post as well, so it's not impossible that I had an edge to mine as well. About that condescending tone? So then you are talking about redesigning the base "controller." In which case, it is still an issue, even by your definition, because you are still getting a catch-22. If you want the default controller to be acceptable for occidental RPGs, you're probably going to need occidental RPGs in order to justify the expense. But you're not going to get people making occidental RPGs if there isn't an appropriate controller for it. In fact, like most things, the support won't come unless the hardware comes first. It seems as though sorting out the controller issue is one of the more primary concerns. Furthermore, assuming that the new controller needs to be a bit more elaborate (or whatever) in order to make occidental RPGs more usable (keeping in mind the previous points about environmental concerns that metadigital and Llyranor brought up), you run the risk of creating something that is too excessive for many console users. What's worse, is you are forcing it upon them. People that don't care about occidental RPGs are the new controller interface to the console will be less likely to buy it. Next thing you know, things are starting to look a bit more like the PC market anyways. The reason I brought up Sega is because it seems as though the market has already made its decision about the viability of occidental RPGs on consoles. Though it has been a while and things may have changed. Having said that, taking a brief glimpse over the thread it seems as though you are just sort of stating the obvious. You seem to be talking about what will happen IF occidental RPGs take up more of the market share. You also talk about how once the demand is there, the hardware and whatnot will take care of itself. You haven't really addressed HOW occidental RPGs will improve their market share, and maybe it's my fault in taking the discussion in that sense. Because when concerning HOW it is going to create market share, you absolutely cannot ignore things such as the controller, in addition to a myriad of other hardware concerns. Furthermore, when it comes to game (and all software development), the software rarely pushes the hardware. Hardware issues don't "take care of themself" as you claim, as no one is going to make a game (or any software) that requires hardware that does not exist. It's too big of a gamble and millions of dollars go down the drain. Hardware innovation is driven by what the software developers want, which is a reflection of what customers want to an extent. But no game developer will make anything that doesn't have the hardware to support it. Assuming that current console controllers are indeed a barrier to playing occidental RPGs, you cannot penetrate the console market with occidental RPGs because they are inherently at a disadvantage. Which means you have to make compromises in the games, to the point where they probably aren't what we are hoping for in terms of RPG experiences. Is this actually progress towards what you're looking for, where the RPG games you want have to turn into RPG-lite just to get market penetration? Who's to say they don't just stick with the RPG-lite formula if it works, and if the RPG-lite formula is working, who's to say that the customers actually WANT it to evolve into a "true" occidental RPG? Game developers can't just start releasing a few hundred Planescape: Torments on to the consoles and hope for the best.

I took the most joy out of PKing PKers :D

Something that comes "naturally" , comes "easily" and by my understanding is not an issue, but almost comes as an instantaneous consequence. You have a different concept of "issue" that I do. An "issue" for me in this case is something like a conundrum .. Something that would require a *lot* of effort, research, resources and time to resolve. However, I don't think it will be much of a technological challenge to design a controller which would be conducive to playing RPGs. I just don't see this as much of a barrier. Apparently we do. If you wish to take a narrow definition of an issue, then that is your perogative. If quality occidental RPGs do in fact require a specialized controller (even if it is just a keyboard), then they are already at a disadvantage. It doesn't matter how much of a technological challenge it is (it isn't one). If you don't see it as a barrier, then I think you are being way too optimistic. For instance, Ocarina of Time sold over almost 8 million units, while Majora's mask (requiring the memory expansion pak) failed to even sell half that many. Sure, you can look back and say "oh, it still sold over 3 million units" but relatively speaking, it was no where near the success of the original. The same can be said for Perfect Dark. Despite being superior in almost every way to GoldenEye, it was immediately handicapped by requiring the "cheap" expansion pak. Both of these franchises had gobs of fans, and I find a 50% drop off of sales to be a bit extreme. Furthermore, I was an active part of N64 community at the time, so I was there actually listening to people complain about the expansion pak requirements. You could see it in stores where people were buying the games, and as people got frustrated by buying a game without realizing that they needed EXTRA stuff to go with it. Working in retail, I had seen people change their mind when they found out the game required a separate expansion pak...often they'd go and pick a different game too. Sure it's anecdotal, but I would be surprised if my store was any more unusual than the majority of outlets that sell video games. Technological barriers for peripherals were never a real issue. It may also not be possible. Don't talk down to me. I've stated my desire to keep the PC RPG games alive, as they are my favourite games, and I've also supported the RPG mainstay's (like the Bioware's, Black Isle/Obsidians, etc) foray's into the console market to exploit its consumer base. Of course I see the importance of it becoming popular. It was never what we are discussing though. All you did here was state the obvious. No kidding it needs to become more popular. But ignoring issues such as whether or not people will require additional peripherals to take advantage of the game type is just walking around with blinders on. The "issues" with expanding the occidental RPGs onto consoles are whatever could hinder the expansion of the market. If you think additional (i.e. not included with every console) peripherals is not an issue, then you have tunnel vision and are focusing so much on one aspect that you'll end up ignoring the other aspects simply because "they should take care of themselves." And because of this, I really don't think you have any place criticizing people for their understanding of "producer-consumer relationships." I meant occidental RPGs for consoles. We have enough JRPGS already. Do we? Always seems to be plenty of demand for JRPGs. You have to make sure to not include your personal bias in such statements. I bet if the situation was reversed, you wouldn't be complaining about an overabundance of occidental RPGs. The market demand dictates how many we should have in development. For instance, you mentioned that Sega tried many occidental RPGs for its system. How come they quit making them? So lets keep on pumping. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I guess my point wasn't all that clear. The main reason why Morrowind and KOTOR were big money winners was because of the lack of competition. If developers "keep on pumping" out the games, then they'll end up competing with each other and no one will make any money then. Though I mentioned that if you start pumping them out, it becomes more competitive so people will stop making the games (these things ARE cyclical by the way), so your recommendation was to keep on pumping?

By acknowleding that "hardware will come naturally" implies that you recognize that the hardware is an issue as well. So then the hardware does create an issue (otherwise it would not come naturally....as it would never come at all). Now that is the point right? And it comes down to developers breaking into the market by creating console RPGs that console gamers would play..That is their job and my hope that they will be successful Aren't they already doing that? Many people buy the FF games, and it's probably the most successful RPG franchise. I never accused you. Re-read my statement, it was done in a general sense. Though you may understand the relastionships, it is possible others don't. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You said: Given you have already stated that (up in the first quote) I agree with him about it being an issue, by making a "general" claim about a category of people I belong to, you are still accusing me. You just happen to be accusing other people as well. In any case, I do feel that one of the main reasons why we've never seen a game with a style like Baldur's Gate or Torment on a console is because of interface issues. A game like KOTOR has had its interface significantly streamlined compared to other Western RPG games. And I think a big reason why it (and Morrowind) sold so much is because of licenses (at least in the part of KOTOR), and a complete lack of competition. If you start pumping out the RPGs, the market becomes much more competitive and people stop making them.

I didn't bring up the interface issue. If you seriously thought it was zero issue, then why did you spend pages of threads even discussing it? And yes, if there is sufficient demand for a product it will be made. But how do you generate the demand if there isn't any? And then you accuse me of not understanding producer-consumer relationships?

I never said this. I said if the occidental RPG market somehow becomes a significantly large market on consoles, they (the developers) would have to address the keyboard/interface/controller issue if sufficient fans complain that the controller provided isn't viable. I don't know about that. You need to start by getting the console players interested in PC-style RPGS first before worrying about revolutionary keyboards and such. Just because you redesign a controller to become friendly to PC-style RPGs, doesn't mean that all of a sudden console players will be playing these RPGs. When the market expands to the point that hardware considerations become an issue, then worry about them then. What you are talking about here is more of a "preference" issue than an interface issue. We need to attack their psyche first, before worrying about the hardware. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Welcome to the Catch-22. If you don't have suitable input to play the games, no interest will grow. But if you don't have suitable interest, no one is going to make suitable input.

In my experiences Western Digitial are the crappiest Hard Drives. I loved Quantum, and when they merged with Seagate I typically go with them.

So he wont actually have to debate, but can safely sit back and call us names. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> When you pass judgement on people (i.e. calling them dumb), you are surprised when they get defensive?

Unless people are buying multiple games when they purchase this keyboard, the initial cost is applied just to the single game. You're being too optimistic if you think people will immediately feel that their investement in the keyboard will open up many new games. And I mean, optimism makes everything sound easy. With a bit of optimism, games are never released with bugs, and are always wonderful and fun. If you do need a keyboard for interface, the only way Western RPGs are becoming a sizeable market is if the consoles start shipping with keyboards (or some other input that addresses the interface).

I get much more attached to a HC character, as I actually consider whether or not I should fight a guy. HC Hell = tough!

For women's hockey it'll be USA vs Canada again. They're the only two powerful teams IMO. For Men's hockey, my picks for Gold are Canada, Czech Republic, and Russia.

Well, the thing I was trying to relate in with the cost is that it's tough to assume that someone is willing to buy the keyboard just to play your game. As you said, because it's not standard, developers can't assume it's there. If they do, they're likely limiting their market.

After a short while, hardcore was the only way we'd play.

Its exacty the same things. Britney Spears extremely dumbed-down but catchy tunes appeal to people in the same eay that Diablos simplistic gameplay does. Face it, most people are dumb and completely lack taste, they will listen to whatever catches their fancy at the moment and play whatever game offer an hour worth of mindless timewasting. I mean, just because people eat millions of hamburgers each week it doesnt mean theyre the crown of creation as far as food goes <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, it's not. I was never discussing whether or not the game was smart or difficult to play, but whether or not it's an RPG. Most people are also what drive the market. We're the odd and unusual ones, not them.

Then I guess many of those old gold box games you claimed to have played (and championed as being the good old days of RPG gaming) aren't RPGs either.

I enjoyed Toreador. I'd suggest Malkavian for the second playthrough.

SS2 came first <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Umm... That is what predecessor means... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah, my reading skills were off. Spiritual is often followed by successor, so while quickly reading it over that's how I read it.

Now, you are just being silly. They can be made adaptable to them. And how much does a keyboard cost like 20 bucks? lol Here is a link for our skeptical friend. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You're the one being silly. Nartwark's point that console's don't come with CDs is a very valid one. Especially seeing as that $20 price tag suddenly makes an $80 game a $100 game. Besides, you should be happy....the Pirates! remake made it on to the XBOX. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Huh? Who is talking about CDs here. You mean keyboards? Sorry but $20 for a keyboard is chump change for all the games you want on a console. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Whoops, I meant keyboard. Chump change? In your opinion perhaps. This argument doesn't fly with the DVD argument, and it won't fly for keyboards either. There has to be a large variety of games to effectively take advantage of it before it will become a popular purchasing decision.

How cliche. Besides, taste is subjective. It's not like we're saying she's not really a singer.

But that just means the majority of people are somehow inferior to us or something, right?

I enjoyed diablo.

No World Games? That's ok...I didn't have summer games

Now, you are just being silly. They can be made adaptable to them. And how much does a keyboard cost like 20 bucks? lol Here is a link for our skeptical friend. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You're the one being silly. Nartwark's point that console's don't come with CDs is a very valid one. Especially seeing as that $20 price tag suddenly makes an $80 game a $100 game. Besides, you should be happy....the Pirates! remake made it on to the XBOX.

SS2 came first

OMGOMGOMOGM I still have yet to play the first one, though the demo was fun.