theBalthazar

I understand your point of view. For me, the battle end very quickly. It is perhaps for that. It is not bad, I don't tell that, this is not universal. Not necesserly a perfect choice for everyone. In POE1, 95 % of my battle was ended is 15 seconds maximum. Worst here. This explain the "special". (it remains only my opinion^^)

ANALYSE OF SUBCLASSES - Part 2 Paladin All orders = Universal. It seems to be clear : There is no "Killer penalty" in each subclass. Goldpact have serious one (no auras at all) but the deal remains good. (Great concept in exchange) Priest All obediences = Special. I have personnaly a problem with this concept. The Advantage/gain is small. All spells of the chosen obedience is not always useful and you have a big penalty in return : impossibility to access to a category of spells. No obedience allow to have all spells... A little bit... problematic for me (mostly with no talents to right of the screen...). (Even with a penalty, access to all spells would been good). I understand the RP reason to that, but one subclass with all would have been nice. A "no subclass" style+upgrade the deal of all obediences would have been nice. Ranger Sharpshooter = Universal. A little bit strange but interresting. Personnally, to increase the concept, I will have to remove the "ranged" obligation (=Ranger with Melee weapon(s), sticks well with the concept.) Ghost heart = Special. Great concept, however... I don't understand the advantage of this. Limited duration / Must be summon, and a big penalty. Perhaps I don't test this subclass correctly ? I expected a more powerful companion in exchange... Immune to bonded grief = lol...^^ Stalker = Special. I love the concept, I love it. BUT...^^ If you are not a melee, the bonded grief will always be activated (ranged = end of this subclass). And when there is the bonus... it is... really a small amount. Not bad but really limited. People will prefer take no subclass, I think. Rogue Assassin = Universal. Glass canon concept but with bonus only in stealth. Big penalty with all damage receive. Extremely powerful but, Be careful, the character become extremely weak at each placement error... Street fighter = Special. The concept is interresting. But... Very limited. Must be bloodied or flanked. It is very risky. Suffer of comparison with Assassin. I prefer more penetration and accuracy on stealth. Provoke Flanked is possible but the best bonus is with bloodied+flanked (like when your character will die the next three seconds : p) On the paper, more useful than assassin, but in fact, too dangerous. It is not glass canon but ... rather kamikaze suicide bomber. Maybe a good choice for solo characters but absolutely not "universal". Trickster = ??. Impossible to tell. You trade 25 % of sneak attack against illusion spells. It is the beta, we don't have all the spells. So, wait and see. In the beta, we have lengrath displaced image. So for me we run to a real interrest. (Universal ?) Wizard All schools = Special. Here there is a good thing : possibility to take no subclass contrary to priest. The problem here is the violence of penalty. I like the concept but it is too much. I resume : 2 schools out (Why not one ? Good enough...) + Malus on recovery on all school wicth are not the spe... It is only +1 power level, it is OK but not insane. I prefer more versatility and no +20 % recovery. "No subclass" atm is a much better choice.

Globally, the purpose of the battle is globally to C.C. Not to let ennemy swing all his spells. In this case, and with no potions and scrolls, with divided/2 beneficials effects... I stay on the bad deal. But indeed, this is not the worst/more useless Barbarian. And yes : For ennemies far enough (like I said...) This is not particuliry useful.

ANALYSE OF SUBCLASSES - Part 1 Special : Exotic, ultra restrictive. Often a bad deal. Universal : All players can consider it without problem. Barbarian Berserker = Special. You can hurt your friend. Bad deal, except in few situations (solo). Corpse eater = Special. Advantage useless/restrictive to few creatures (and inconscious...) for problematic penalty. Mage slayer = Special. Triple PENALTY : p for not attack wizard they are generally far enough and this is only -a chance- to disrupt + a weak bonus against spell. In short : bad deal. Chanter Beckoner = Universal. The penalty concerned the summon themselves. Excellent deal. Skald = Universal. Could be special in a sense but the specialisation require only to play in one way for work. No problem. Troubadour = Special. The modal could be present for all form of chanter if we pay attention ? It is not a total advantage. And you gain a big penalty with that. Middling. Cipher Ascendant = Special. A little bit complicated to use. Always be at max but after 5 sec, down to 0... In short, bad deal. If you are at max, you only could attack once, after that you are less powerful etc. Beguiler = Special. Major penalty with less damage for what ? More range... Bad deal. Soul blade = Universal. I think lot of people can take this. It is an excellent deal, pretty universal. Lost max concentration is not a big problem himself. Druid Fury = Universal. Excellent deal. The penalty is not too strong. Perfect. Life giver = Universal. Shifter = Special. It is not particulary a bad deal, but It seems to be the combats in this game will be more shorter. So a lot of transformations ? Maybe not very useful. Boost of the damage of shapeshift form would have been better. Fighter Black jacket = Special. Frankly... A pretty bad deal. Health recovery is one of the most interresting thing with the fighter. especially now, with only the endurance. And especially for these weak bonuses in exchange... Devoted = Universal. It is an interresting approach, I like it. One chosen weapon, all others have an accuracy malus. Good deal. Unbroken = Universal. The malus is not absurd. The concept is good. Monk Helwalker = Universal. Anybody can approve this approach. Glass canon is the perfect definition. Nalpazca = Special. I hesitated. But, in this case the fact to not can heal the character is problematic. The idea with drugs and all is awsome, truly but perhaps poorly staged. It is not the worst "special" but still special. Shattered pillar = Universal. (by far). The dream of all guys who dislike the concept of wound. (like me) Awsome idea, trully. -------------- To conclude this first part : I think when I imagined the subclasses that was more with "universal" approach. I hope refinement for the "special" case. That would be cool.

There are many ways for sub-classes for devs : 1) Hyper specific subclass like now. A concept on legs. If you don't like the malus = end of the game. Will give 75 % of players stay with no subclasses. 25 % for VERY specific build. 2) Mouthwatering subclass, with less malus, more general concept. = because if it is too specific = will only serve a few people. Will give 25 % / 25 % / 25 % / 25 %. Perhaps a third option, with a bit both, one exotic class, very specific and the others more convenient for a majority of players. I add to that all classes are not hyper specific but a majority actually. So we are rather in case number 1, for now.

I have notice a thing guys, tell me if I am wrong. I have the feeling Empower work better on certain spells. Like Minor missiles = huge difference. Others spells = much less. It may be just an illusion. (offensive spells have more numerical variables? Damage + Penetration + Number of missiles. All of this is buff against less variables for others spells ?) ---------------------------------- EDIT : PLAYER INTERRUPTIONS : There is also a problem with the mage. When you start to cast the spell. Sometimes you must auto-interrupt for an another spells (healing for exemple). When it is recovery = no loss, perfect. But DURING the casting time = loss. So, perhaps don't lost the point at this time ? When it is an ennemy ok, but when it is the player decision, it is too punitive.

You can start the character with no auto-level. It is REALLY better^^ (uncheck in the options) Caster always have problems (long casting time for exemple) but with good spells, there is major difference. Focus on : +Perception and debuff armor. = Other world with mage. EVEN IF... There is always many problems here and here indeed. For the grimoire, I view It now like a complement beside invested spells. Only choice is missing for more possibilities. If not, there is side effect of : I take level up spells only regarding spells of too few grimoires. There is also an possible problematic : How make switch of grimoires intuitive for all players. It is an important question.

+1 I like the stash always visible but we can't move items between two characters. Actually : Character 1 > Stash, Stash > Character 2 ---------------------------- EDIT : My tests continue on the beta. WIZARD GRIMOIRE OPINION : I like this choice. Grimoire become a real element of gameplay. It is a good thing. There is more potential for that. Like a quest mid-end game with possibility to place spells (we don't have) and we like in a special custom grimoire. Once written this would be definitive. Early game-mid game : grimoire Bought or obtained by ennemis. With the reduction of the number of spells, this mecanics work better now. We can also hope more Grimoire like LLengrath Grimoire with unic spells. Hype guaranted for the players.

* If a general pool of Talent is not considered by the devs, give weapon focus to all "physical class", who can 'RP speaking' possibly master all the weapons Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Monk, Ranger. * Weapon focus down to a bonus of 4 accuracy. * Make Proficiency give 6 Accuracy for reinforce the value of this tricks. * Let appear the empower level at the rest panel. * Increase the might or/and number of empower in the case of single class. For increase the deal. In front of multiclass, the singleclass must be powerful in his domain.

Don't forget party member add points to global value. But i am agree with you. 1 pt is not enough. 2 pts for active skills seems to be a good way. 3 pts for active skills is too much because we have 5 party members. Or, eventually a system like Original sin with abilities. +1 the fifth first level, +2 until level 10, +3 until level 15, and finally +4 until level 20.

Yes. For spells casters, the "feeling"of not investing enough at each level (perhaps fake feel ?). This is a problem that is found throughout the game, AND specifically on spellcasters. If we think to that, the problem come to the unification between abilities and talents. Because they have now the same ressource ? But if spellcasters gain more talents, it is also interresting to can chose to take more spells than talents. This possibility is interresting and go in the direction of more flexibility, so I like it. So, there is without no doubt a good solution to conciliate all the obedience.

Inspirations are a great concept. There is a great potential. Affliction / inspiration are globally less gamebreakers. There is a risk for the interrest of wizard debuffer or Druid C.C. for exemple, but I will wait the final game to judge. A kind of russian doll. as said above, not easy to see what it contains for novices. BUT, this will help to differentiate the concepts effectively. Like direct bonus/malus (-10 in might without container) + the inspiration (Strong = container). Who should logically stack themselves. Same concept as POE1, except there is a positive pendant at affliction ? But, sometimes I don't understand why they don't stack each others with the priest for exemple. (Bug ?) Insightfull (L1 priest) + Aware. (L3 priest) I think it is no stack because of +5 perception. But...What is the interrest of "russian dollize" and naming a "container" concept if they don't stack (like Maxquest said) -------- EDIT ON REST : Proposition : That would be cool if in the REST Menu, we could see the EMPOWER status.

I can perhaps resume my posture in one sentence : sure and certain that I would take more pleasure in the game if the talents are apart. (Or at least many more) Pleasure = more possibilities. You can not do optimal than unleash the concept of Talents in relation to the class. If the developers have an obsession to lose a lot of concepts in the "class" system. They can strengthen everything by creating new abilities. More, now it is the same cost for the player if I understand the new system... ! So there is no problem...

I play the beta again and again and I add a point. RELATION OF WEAPONS FOCUS AND PROFICIENCY : +/- I like the idea to create a personnal choice when chose proficiency. But this concept has more potential. Because when you disable this option for x reasons (its a modal very VERY equilibrate, not totally advantageous I mean) Nothing left. But... why not deal a bonus in accuracy with that ? Like +4-5-6 accuracy ? Now, only the barbarian have accurate with "weapon focus". Fighter are conceptually more accurate no ? : p There is something evil in this concept. The idea is good but not the immediate feeling. Everything comes to... No... Again that... ...Talents. : p I throw an idea, who know : ------------------------------------------------------------------- ACTUAL SYSTEM 3 Exemples Fighter : Proficiency + Nothing. Barbarian : Proficiency + Talent Weapon focus. Wizard : Proficiency + Nothing POSSIBLE SYSTEM Fighter : Proficiency with 6 Accuracy + Talent Weapon focus 4 Accuracy (Extended to all classes that are legitimate to know the weapons well, Paladin, Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger etc, Physical class in short). Barbarian : Proficiency with 6A + Talent Weapon focus 4A. Wizard : Proficiency with 6A + Nothing. (Not weapon focus, it a magic class etc) A possible mega combo with two physical class (multiclass) : Double Weapon focus : = 4 x 2 = 8. Not crazy, seems legit. (Need 2 points to spend) ------- Proficiency is more specific = highter number. Weapon focus is general for all proficiency = smaller number. Reserve to physical class, and also two physical class for the combo. This is just an idea. : p

Even in terms of roleplay... I want a Barbarian spe Two hand. Singleclass. I want to excel in one class. RP speaking I can imagine a powerful man, focus on his muscle, able to do +15 % with a great sword. Big sword. In our case, if I want this, I am in obligation of take Barbarian + Fighter. So the RPG aspect does not precede my choice. The game precedes my choice = Bottleneck. talents must follow a certain logic inherent to the game and to the universe portrayed. All rest must be allocate to flexibility.

You take the problem upside down. If the talent is not useful, it is because its a general pool ? and you fold it in a the class system to better control it ? No, if it this talent is bad, you pass 5 to 10. If the talent "body control" is take by nobody, pass the bonus +10 to +25. etc. (+10 was very useless, this is the reason...) Each investment must pay his price. It is not the fault of the existence of this talent, but his balancing (in this case). Le biggest mistake to not do when you create a game system is to rigidify the system because you cannot manage all the stuff. you will tighten to limit the breakage, and it is not good. POE2 is under the sign of OPENING. Multiclass is the things the most refreshing. And conceptually, multiclass is the fact of combo (optimization for each member of your team). The pleasure of build. But in an other hand, you lock the talents ? It is not good.

I speak in terme of CHOICE^^. Overall, all the talents perhaps still exist if we add all classes, but the choice overtime is reduced. You must pick ONE class (or two...), and for a reduced amount of talents. It is a regression. It works in NWN because there is LOT of feats. Feats for classes, ok. But otherwise an incredible amount of choice in, for exemple, General feats, or Epic feats. Paradise of character building. In POE1 the choice of talents is already very limited... (it is ok with multiclass talents, but not crazy) Imagine now with a divided number... the fonction has been moved, not "reinforce". If you want class talents, ok. But you must muscle your panel, muscle the choice for players.

Analyse of NWN1 and 2 Recall of facts : NWN Feats (Equivalence of Talents in POE) = Class feats + Racial Feats + GENERAL feats + CONDITIONNAL feats (Constitution 21+ etc) Level of liberty = 90 % ------------ POE2 beta Talents = Class talents. Level of liberty = 20 % (Chose a class and it is all)

If you want class specific, there is abilities. If the devs WANT an additionnal 15 % for x reasons. CREATE a new abilitie ! During 45 seconds, the fighter gain +15 % in two handed. End. It is clear and simple!^^ but keeping more options is worth more than a differentiation that does not make sense. I asked the question again, why, the barbarian could not have this talent ? When over talent is duplicate for several classes. (Will reflex etc especially)

Except that a game system (numbers) is globally an illusion. A pretty illusion, but still an illusion. But I prefer 50 illusions of choice rather than 10 illusions (the actuals talents are the same for 90 %) Even a +10 % here and here create an interrest. EVEN a not selected talent offers a possible DIFFERENTIATION (even if the player don't chose the talent at the end) THE CHOICE for players ^^ More possibilities, not less possibilities. Stiffen everything is not a good idea. The best games RPG I played have OPEN system and severals approach. Original SIN ! Talents + Traits + Abilities + Attributes. All this is OPEN, without classes. A class can handle abilities, technical details (accuracy etc). But more it is a bad balancing. A boulevard... A streaming boulevard each level. If the game go out now, at the time of the "original sin" etc, he will be crucified.

Except with multiclass, the game is less "sandbox", sadly. For me the definition of "talent" in POE1 is "free developpement, without link with the class" If not, you have ABILITIES. It was class specific. For me, this repartition is smart. In POE2 beta, we lost this specificity, this flexibility. It is a bad thing. There is no excuse of "if not everybody take the same talent" Oh yes and with this system ? It is worst ! Talent being locked, that will be worst ! (+ with less talents to chose atm)

The subsidiary question is : where are source of Accuracy. Because miss is not a problem if you are accurate. Also, the Beta has a bias : it is not our team.

Additionnally guys, the purpose for Obsidian is to sell the game with an accessible system. At the same time, the new system is more complex, and more binary in last (as explained a little before) Grazes + New rules of penetration don't go in this road. But in this situation, the game lost the starters (NO PEN NO PEN NO PEN NO PEN ! : p) and makes doubtfully the most competent players. Globally, I think the system is still to be tweaked.

Why not stay on the logical. Barbarian + Fighter + Paladin = Access to Two handed fighting style +15 % damage. (If really Obsidian don't want of general pool... An extension is necessary...) AND Combine a double option. +15 % in barbarian. +15 % in a fighter = 30 % with the duo in multiclass ! Single class side : A BIG bonus for empower, like +2 level (compared to now and compared to multiclass mostly). A specialization is not a hollow concept. More choice, even more choice. More Combo possible ! It is the road of pleasure for Build a character. Barbarian is already not the best class. Think to a single class... Barbarian don't have much more option than POE1... ------- Exemple : We are on FIRE EMBLEM. A basic exemple. A swordmaster, specialist of his art have a BONUS for his specialisation (+20 % critical). He handles a single type of weapon with counterpart of master his sword. Here, there is a very limited counterpart. For me, when a single class empower, he gives everything and do amazing damage. If not : why single class ? It is a powerful specialisation...

Breck > It is true concerning the context of the beta. Indeed. Low level and little evolution of experience. But when we think about it. If the high level spells are like POE1... There is less spells, and the most were useless. MORE, if the delay is big for these spells ! like 12 seconds for a fire storm (exemple) It is truly possible, because more powerful = more charge in a certain point of view. And for empower, there is just less points, but it is not a real problem. Single class looks really, really bad...