Boeroer

Right. So all those disabling spells of yours (e.g. Mental Binding and Mind Wave - which reduce deflection via allfiction like paralyzed, prone and so on) increase the chance to score a crit and thus do additional damage.

Are you sure and did a test? Because some of those "do this than also that happens" talents like Inspiring Exhortation and on-kill-effects like Bloodlust or Mourning Gloves or Tempered Helm seem to stack with everything nowadays. It might be that Vielo Vidorio stacks with the rest of the speed buffs because it's one of those talents that only work when you use an ability?

They are. Savage Attack is also a good option. Since your main targets are disabled most of the time the -5 ACC doesn't matter much - but the focus gain and damage are better with it. Stacks with Apprentice's Sneak Attack and also Soul Whip + Biting Whip. Draining Whip is also good if you do lots of damage per hit. You will do +40%+15%+20% = +75% damage which really hurts and gives you good focus.

What do you mean they don't stack? When I put on lavender wreath and sura's supper plate then the enemy who hits me doesn't either get hit or sickened? I did a test build with binding rope some hours ago and it worked with supper plate and battle forged as well as with flame shield. Version 3.02. What I didn't have was a retaliation item that was no weapon - like coat of ill payment. So it might be that this gets suppressed by binding rope or lavender wreath?

That's right. The only "normal" retaliation that stacks is that from the supper plate because weapon/shield enchantments stack with everything. But you might want to skip retaliation altogether because it's base damage is really low and even the highest dmg mod doesn't turn it into good damage. It's only worth it with Combusting Wounds or if you combine things like Glitternig Gauntlets (=dazed), Enervating Blows (=weakened) or Avenging Storm with it.

Nice idea. Salvation of Time might be great for this. Sadly, Spelltongue isn't enough to prolong duration endlessly anymore. Maybe with carnage it still is, but attacking single targets even with 0 recovery isn't enough anymore. I tried it with a fighter to exend all his aweseome buffs and it didn't work so well. Maybe it's better if you crit a lot or once the foes are properly buffed - like Lagufaeth with Broodmothers are most of the time or Xaurips with priests and Ogres with Matrons can be. Together with Salvation of Time you should be able to squeeze out a lot of extra duration. Too bad Spelltongue's base damage is so underwhelming.

Missile Barrage with Deathblows is so awesome.

Sneak and Deathblows yes, carnage no. And because the damage of retaliation is so whimpy Deathblows with it are still not very impressive. What is impressive at higher levels is Battle Forged from the Fire Godlike race. It works with Deathblows and Scion of Flame and it stacks with the Potion of Flame shield and the other retaliations. You can even combine this retaliation stuff with Riposte, Binding Rope and Lavender Wreath for maximum punishment. However - because rogues endurance and deflection are low it's hard to make this work for a long time. But Combusting Wounds with this is fun for sure and makes it effective. Ciphers can use Combusting Wounds and combine it with Pain Link. Every enemy around you gets hit when you get hit plus all that retaliation means that there are a gazillion of hits taking place - great for combusting wounds. Also great in conjunction with any beam spell. What does work really really well is Druid's Avenging Storm with all that retaliation. It's adding a high shock damage bonus that's not based on % but a flat amount, no matter how whimpy the initial damage is. This makes multiple retaliation great. But this spell comes really really late. Monk's Turning Wheel also works with those retaliations, adding up to +50% of burning lash to every retaliation. While this is totally meh with normal retaliation it's very good with battle forged and flame shield because the lash and the initial damage profit from Scion of Flame. And monks can have TON of endurance and health as well as very high DR with Iron Wheel which makes it my favorite class for using Battle Forged. In fact I'll put out a monk build around battle forged in a few days. Edit: and I forgot: barb's One Stands Alone, Blooded and stuff also worked with retaliation recently, adding +50% damage to retaliation and Battle Forged once you hit 50% endurance. And you have the raw damage retaliation, too. Blood Thirst also works. So if you kill an enemy with retaliation your recovery will be set to zero - no matter your DEX. This can be fun with Battle Forged, Flame Shield and Firebrand. Also building around that ATM - but I don't know yet if this is truly viable.

Ah - now I understand. You're going to dual wield Bittercut + Ravenwing? But why those two? They are not in the same weapon group. Bittercut + Bleak Fang would make more sense or not? They share the same weapon focus and on-crit Touch of Rot's initial damage would profit from Spirit of Decay (and from Deathblows I guess).

If you tend to attack one enemy with two guys it's not that bad (like when you flank). +4 ACC and +25% damage is nice to have. But Spirit of Decay will only give you +5% corrode damage for the lash while it would give you +20% on Bittercut's base damage plus 5% for it's lash. So I don't think you need Spirit of Decay if you use Ravenwing. Or wait... does it also do corrode damage now?

I think it's a good choice. Two times consecrated ground it obviously better than one.

They should really introduce that blade...

Just put somebody tanky with double preservation (like Orlan's Bramble Ring + Solace med. shield) into their midst (=+100 to all defenses if he/she gets stunned by the lightning) and pick the druids off with bows. Those guys go down quickly and the storms have limited range.

Yes, you will reach 0 recovery with that and you could even wear an armor with 45% base penalty if I'm not mistaken. So Sanguine Plate will lead to a tiny bit of recovery I think (but I may be wrong). And with the Blade of the Endless Patchs you won't need Vulnerable Attack that much I guess. You can still take it and use it against really hefty DR though. There's a break-even point (don't know the exact numners of recovery vs. DR) when it's smart to use Vuln. Attack. But with the BotEP I (personally) would just skip it. But it can also be cool to stack a lot of DR bypass and sacrificing a bit of attack speed - especially if you're not attacking all the time like ciphers or other casters.

The stuff that is in the same category (universal speed buffs/melee speed buffs/whatever speed buffs) gets multiplied, not added. That's why stacking more and more of those (if possible without supressing) is very potent. That's why speed enchantment + Durgan Steel is so good: if you bring those together they don't only add up with dual wielding, they multiply and therefore contribute even more than their flat numers say. Don't ask me waht the exact formula is - MaxQuest will know for sure. He knows everything about attack speed and recovery because he did tons of tests and also decompiled some of the game code to check the formulas out.

Every weapon has it's own basic recovery duration (fast, average, slow). And spells have, too (instant, fast, average, slow spells). Dual wielding, speed enchantments and so on only affect the weapon recovery, while things like Frenzy, Alacrity, Swift Aim affect the recovery of ALL actions while things like Sure Handed Ila or Pen. Shot only affect the recovery of ranged attacks, Vulnerable Attack only melee attacks and so on. You can't reach 0 recovery for your spellcasting or potion drinking and stuff. And the spell and drinking animations can be very long, too - so DEX is a good way to speed those things up.

Exactly! But attack animation isN#t as short as you think. If you dump DEX to 3 with 0 recovery you will still be fast but you will feel a big difference compared to higher DEX and tehrefore shorter attack animation. And also: try to cast a spell, use a slo ability, read a scroll or drink a potion with 3 DEX.

What MaxQuest wants to tell you is that the DEX bonus modifies your recovery after all the other modifiers get calculated. So, if you have... let's say 100 frames of recovery left (after all the speed mods from dual wielding, two weapon style and durgan stuff as well as frenzy, alacrity, armor penatly, penalties and whatnot got calculated) - and you have 10 DEX, then your recovery is 100 frames of course. But if you have 20 DEX (=30% speedup) your recovery will only be around 75 frames (see his formla). But it can never reach 0. BUT if you already reched 0 frames recovery with all those speed mods, then DEX does nothing for your recovery any more: 0 / DEX speedup mod is still 0. So that's why DEX is really important for your recovery time if you have a lot of recovery left and not so important if you have already reduced it to a small amount or even zero. With a bow like Stormcaller you can't reach 0 recovery with abilities, items and so on - so piling up DEX is the only way left to make it faster. But DEX also affects attack animation and reloading. So it's very useful for somebody who wants to use guns or any slower weapon with which you can't reach zero recovery easily. It's a bit counterintuitive. I would have liked it better if it would be applied like all the other speed mods. Edit: My... you can't be fast enough here - and I thought I already have 0 recovery while typing... 3 PER though it seems.

Ha! Right! Seems to fit...

Yes to both questions.

Man - I nearly choked on my slice of pizza.

Depends how you play and if you have other sturdy guys I guess. I had a good time with a max RES sabre and shield cipher + Psychovampiric Shield and medium armor only. But as I said above, I also think that dual wielding sabres with plate armor and blunting belt is a good choice.

On the other hand, shields give you the most benefit in the early game, because the ratio of deflection bonus from level : deflection bonus from shield + style is more balanced than in the late game. And you will lack the spells that can save you once you get targeted. And if your're knocked out you can't do anything. SO I would do it like GawainBS said. But as I said that's also a matter of preferred playstyle- I hate nothing more than going down all the time. I am always wiling to sacrifice some offensive power to avoid that. But plate, Blunting Belt and dual sabres is also very good. If you have a priest or paladin in the party or use shod-in-faith boots this is save. So maybe you can skip retraining at all and just stick to dual wielding sabres and just reduce the armor step by step if you feel you're sturdy enough and want more speed - until you reach the point where you're so fast (as MaxQuest described) that you can wear a plate without getting slowed down by it (late game, once you have access to durgan steel). So both recommendations work I guess. Just pick what you like best - also style wise and so on. That's also important - I mean you want to have fun and not doing a "perfectly optimized" playthrough when your hero looks stupid to you.

Dual sabres is definetely an option. Especially if you choose thick armor because dual wielding itself negates the recovery penalty of heavy armor like plate and brigandine. Estocs will indeed be slow but is best against enemies with high DR. Most "common" ciphers tend to be pretty useless if they can't target enemies with low DR in order to gain focus. With such a cipher you always want to hit the target with the lowest defletion and DR in order to a) kill ist fast and more important b) to get as much focus per hit as you can Enemies with high DR will only get MIN damage from you if you don't have any DR bypass and/or high base damage and that means a very laughable focus gain. This is especially bad if you use small, fast weapons like daggers or Hunting Bows and then run out of soft targets. Against a dragon, animats or beetles those ciphers can't generate any focus - against ghouls and such they can be great. A sabre however can punch through pretty much anything, but it's much slower than fast weapons of course. You can take Vulnerable Attack and only switch it on if you feel the enemies' DR in certain fights is too high. You will be free in the choice of your targets you and can get good focus out of any enemy - but in 75% of most fights you won't need it. Novice's Suffering combines that high base damage with higher speed and therefore can also be a good option - but you can't enchant your fists which is a disadvantage on higher levels, but it's good in early and mid game. An Estoc can be great if you want to focus on the really sturdy enemies with the thickest of armors. You can then stack as much DR bypass as you want (+5 Vuln. Attack, +5 Estoc, +3 rending (there's an Estoc named "Drake's Bell" with that enchantment), +3 Ryona's Vembraces, +7 Body Attunement spell) for a crazy DR bypass of 20 (23 with that special estoc "Drake's Bell"). That means that against nearly all enemies you will just punch through their DR as if it wasn't there (Ryona's Vembraces also work with certain spells by the way - like Mind Blades and Mind Lance for example). You could skip Vuln. Attack and lose not much. Most of the time the -20% speed will be worse than having 15 DR bypass instead of 20. Estocs have a unique representative named "The Blade of the Endless Paths", which has speed. This is a great enchantment for a two hander. It the main reason (besides the 5 DR bypass) that estocs are popular. There is one big disadvantage that sabres and estocs share though: they only have one damage type. This can be superbad if you meet foes who are immune to slash or pierce. You will have to switch to a different weapon then - like from sabres to clubs. But there's a nice sabre that renders this fuzz needless: name's Bittercut. This sabre does corrode/slash damage and also profits from Spirit of Decay (giving you +20% damage on top of your soul whip's 40% and also working with Antipathetic Field which you should use as a frontliner all the time). You won't have to switch weapons again once you pick up this special sabre. With estocs it's a bit more complicated (but also doable without losing the benefits of your weapon style). They all do pierce damage only - so you would have to switch to a pollaxe if you meet immune enemies. If you make yourself sturdy enough (for example with plate armor, blunting belt, Shod-In-Faith boots and/or Veteran's Recovery) then an estoc can also be a good choice - if you want to focus on the really turtlelike enemies as I said. Against all others using dual sabres will result in better focus gain.

Dual sabres is the best option in terms of focus genration in my opinion. Sabres have nearly the same base damage as two handers (which is great because sould whip's damage bonus applies to that base damage and therefore has a much better effect than with whimpy weapons) while their recovery time is halved while dual wielding. There's no better "basic" combination of damage and focus generation. YOu don't necessarily need Vulnerable Attack. It will slow you down and you won't want that and you will have a spell that reduces DR anyways. I also had good experience with a monkish cipher build which uses Novice's Suffering instead of sabres by the way: The Dichotomous Soulbenders Ok, so dual wielding sabres works fine with focus genreation... BUT: that's only if you play him like a rogue and avoid being hit - which can mean a lot of running around and positioning in order to not get surrounded and so on. Ciphers are not extraordinarily sturdy, so a melee cipher skilled for max focus per attack might go down really quickly. At higher levels this might not be a problem any more because you will have spells with which you can open combat which will disable the foe you want to hit. This lowers the risk of being knocked out. But you will still have to watch out a lot. So, a setup with sabre and shield is my favorite: Still close to the damage of a two-hander but with the possibility to wear a shield which will increase your sturdyness immensely - especially if you combine it with defensive self buffs like Psychovampiric Shield (which doesn't matter much if your deflection is abysmal anyways - but really pays off if you put it ontop of an already good deflection - and it also debuffs the target). Your focus generation will be slower than with dual sabres of course - but still better than with most ranged weapons - while you can stand in the front row without any fuss and low micromanagement and also use some of the powerful spells that you can't use properly when you're in the back rows or when you have to flank, like Antipathetic Field and Mind Lance. I like this a lot - BUT: I prefer slower fights with sturdier characters over shorter fights with one or two tanks + glass cannons. First of all it's less micromanagement and secondly because you don't have to reload that much. But that's just my personal preference and the sabre and shield cipher fits into this. I also made a build that used sabre & retaliation shield because retaliation used to give you focus - but OBS nerfed that and now I wouldn't recommend it (until they buff it again ).