Nobear

Thanks for letting me know for certain that it was in the game and removed. The most common cause of wrong info on the Wiki I find is that it's outdated. There are other ways to make tanks less powerful than by making one of their talents useless. In fact, I imagine that the upcoming change to Perception will have a greater effect on tanks not being invincible. I advocate for solutions that don't just fix balance, but maintain fun and diversity in gameplay. In light of this, please reverse this change, as it's no longer needed. My other question also still remains, if a dev can answer whether engagement actually helps hold enemies in place or not. If not, Hold the Line and Guarding would appear to have zero defensive value.

Alright, I am questioning the consensus from the other thread that certain enemies don't already behave as I requested. I thankfully decided to save a copy of my game where I'd gotten through the non-combat parts of Defiance Bay and had Hold the Line on my tanks. I also restarted from a very early save before I'd gotten the talent, and did not take it. Everything else about the playthroughs was identical, including PoTD difficulty, party composition, and formations. For the most part, both my tanks held the enemies as well as they had on the other play through. However, I could swear there was one exception. In Raedric's Hold, on the play through without Hold the Line, a kith would periodically break free from one of my tanks. It seemed to mostly be from my paladin tank, but I'm pretty sure I remember one getting away from my fighter when he was only fighting one or two. Of course, it's possible that his engagement was broken. I didn't pay as close attention as I could have. It would be nice, independent of my primary request to scale Flanked with the engagement limit, to know from a developer whether engagement is currently a mechanic that makes a difference in holding enemies in place, because it's hard to tell in-game.

I don't know why someone would do Hearth Orlan for a tank unless to RP. I'm with you that Wild Orlan looks like a good tank racial. I have a Moon Godlike, but Wild Orlan would probably be my second choice for a tank. To the OP: My build looks very similar to the build in your first post: 10/14/4/18/14/18 Shieldbearer tank/support. I chose 14 Int specifically because (when they fix the current bug that makes auras huge), 20 Int is the breakpoint to make my Zealous Focus cover my back row in my custom formation, which I can easily get with an item and resting bonus in Defiance Bay. My slight preference for Con over Might was a close one. Yes, Might would have made my Silver Tide a bit stronger, but I find it strong enough even with 10 Might. I wouldn't dump Might, that's for sure. Now, for dialogue options, Might will mostly open aggressive ones, which a Shieldbearer doesn't want to pick anyway. Con will open relatively few dialogue options, but I don't think they will as often be aggressive. Also, a relatively minor consideration is that I like my two tanks to have similar health pools, so they will be more balanced and one won't force me to rest more often than I would otherwise. Admittedly, this last concern is probably a bit OCD as opposed to necessary, that's why I call it minor.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm considering not taking Vigorous Defense on Eder anyway. I'm ok with his only active being knockdown, and getting more passive abilities (both defensive and offensive) instead. My other characters are more active.

Hm do you know if the fighter's Defender is subject to the same suppression mechanics as Cautious Attack? In other words, would Circle of Protection be of zero use for a fighter with Wary Defender? Update: The answer is no, just tested it . Wary Defender does stack with Circle of Protection. So many inconsistent mechanics in this game, I am always restarting to adjust my build because I learn of a new one!

Deflection boosting spells would be things like a Shieldbearer paladin's talents? So one of these would be suppressed if both were active? What about deflection-boosting items (I assume they stack, since they are in a different category) and talents that directly increase deflection, like Superior Deflection and Faith and Conviction? PS I still argue for the value of a ranged weapon for between spells being higher than the situational value of a small shield, but to each his own. Perhaps from level 9 (and moreso from 11) some casters might not have occasion to fire off a shot in most battles. That's the logic I gather...

Hi all, I just learned that I could swap out a talent I thought would be better with another using console commands, without the IE mod. Here's the page with details: http://rien-ici.com/iemod/console/ Problem is, it tells me to find the names of abilities/talents in PillarsOfEternity_Data\assetbundles\prefabs\objectbundle. Well, I searched for PillarsOfEternity_Data and no such folder was found. I even showed package contents of the application. Is this a hidden folder or what? How can I find it? Thanks Update: Wow nevermind, I found it! It's buried deep. You have to Show Package Contents, then navigate Contents/Resources/game, then Show Package Contents again on the app called PillarsOfEternity (as opposed to the outer one, called Pillars of Eternity). LOL!

Wow, I assumed capes weren't supposed to be rendered until I saw this thread. Clearly, same issue here.

I really wish people would check their facts before making these kinds of statements. The Accuracy penalty of larger shields fully applies to spellcasting as well. The OP was thinking there might be a speed penalty (which there isn't), but you're right, there's the accuracy penalty. In any case, I'm not a fan of shields for non-tanks.

Dear developers, I would like to request that you modify the Flanked requirement so that it scales with Hold the Line and Guarding. I know the Wiki is often wrong, but it states that the requirement for Flanked is "Engaged by more enemies than engagement limit." The main reason I took the talent on my tanks is because I thought it would make it harder for enemies to flank me, but I have tested it and this is not the case. Does the wrong info on the Wiki reflect an outdated version of the mechanic, and if so, why was it changed? If you look at the names, Hold the Line and Guarding imply that the original design intent was defensive. Would it not make sense for a fighter specialized in defensive techniques to be better able to guard himself against multiple opponents than, say, an untrained fighter or a wizard? Could we not imagine this fighter taking such a stance, and being so alert, as to better avoid being caught off guard or flanked? From gameplay experience and a discussion on this thread, I have realized that the talent and weapon attribute in question have no practical benefit for my party, and very limited (offensive, not defensive) benefit for other players. Another way to help make these mechanics matter more would be to improve the enemy AI so that some (not all) enemies will actively try to leave your tanks for your weak members, even ranged, unless they are engaged by your tank. This might be implemented based on what behavior would make RP sense for a given enemy. For example, berserker or impulsive/aggressive types would be more likely to do this than tank-type enemies. Finally, if the Flanked requirement is changed to scale, I would also suggest that Cautious Attack additionally raise the engagement limit by 1. I think it's fair for Fighters to be the best at this as part of their uniqueness, but this would allow other tanks not to be overly disadvantaged given my other proposed changes. Sincerely, Eugene

Edit: Raven's got the answer below. As for my thoughts/advice, I find even on PoTD, as long as you have two tanks and position fights well at the beginning, it's rare that your back row gets hit. And in the exceptions, like fights with Shades and Shadows, I have found it more effective to focus fire on the enemy that has gotten to your back row, rather than playing defensively. I have tried the same Shade/Shadow fights with everyone wearing plate armor, ignoring the teleporting Shadows and trying to focus on the Shades. From personal experience, the DPS loss outweighs the benefit. Even with good heals, your back row eventually dies from loss of Health, not Endurance, and more Shadows spawn in the meantime. I have beat these same fights a lot more cleanly by focus firing each enemy that gets to my back line. Just when you think you need defense most on your back row, what you really need is good CC and DPS. So I wouldn't take Weapon and Shield style or ever use shields personally on a non-tank character. If you can't find better talents, I suppose some defensive ones that don't depend on a shield could be alright, but I'd give preference to DPS. You can't use a wand with a shield anyway (say, for Rot Skulls). And yes, any shield bigger than the smallest kind will incur an accuracy penalty, and the small shield's defense is most definitely not worth giving up DPS for. Some people may disagree, but this is from PoTD experience.

Thanks for the advice. So it sounds like with the rank 2 summons I could take it or leave it if I'm building for the Echo strategy, that only the ogres are going to be better tanks than the phantom; so I should probably summon the phantom first even in late game, then replace him with ogres mid-fight for the long and hard fights. Edit: And yes this is PoTD. I find fights with tons of Shades/Spectres (like the lighthouse in Ondra's Gift) and high DR enemies (like Adra Animats), or lots of well-armored kith with paladins can last plenty long enough to make good use of summons.

Good job, but have you seen this spreadsheet? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vDm5MOrCK6S95h5u0EzZbGTv_u_rYqjuO0-zupqk0_A/edit?pli=1#gid=1264774515

It'd be 95% I believe, then. 30% (flail) + 20% (Confident Aim) + 30% (One-Handed Style) + 15% (Zealous Focus) = 95%. Not too shabby :D. Thanks all for the confirmation!

I have a ranged chanter and a cipher in my party. The cipher just got Ectoplasmic Echo. What I'd like to do is cast summons behind the enemy, then use Ectoplasmic Echo to burn those in the crossfire. So I'm interested primarily in hardy summons that will survive a while when cast behind the enemy. For rank 1 I find the Phantom to be hardier than the skeletons (and he hits pretty hard and stuns too). For rank 3 I'm guessing the ogres? Wow I'd love to summon a drake, but are the ogres going to survive better? Then what about rank 2? Wurms and Will-o-Wisps both seem pretty frail. I'd guess Wurms are probably a bit hardier than Will-o-Wisps, but I don't know. Are either going to be better than the Phantom for this purpose, or should I keep using Phantom until I get ogres, and take a rank 2 summon for an alternate purpose? Thanks.

On second thought: no. After getting to Gilded Vale for the 100th or so time, I thought about what I was doing. I realized it won't make a huge difference in the end whether I give up one of the less exciting talents that give some more consistent benefit than Hold the Line (say, Superior Deflection). Yeah, it's going to be suboptimal based on the current build of the game, but not enough to be crippling, and I can still enjoy the game. Yes, I'm giving myself the therapeutic talk when I say "You can enjoy the game knowing your tanks are going to be some small percentage short of perfection. Let it go." Instead, I would like to appeal to the developers to modify Flanked so that it does indeed scale with Hold the Line and Guarding. To anyone who has played the game since beta or the early versions, did it used to work that way, seeing as that's what it states in the official Wiki? The most common cause of wrong info on the Wiki seems to be that it's outdated. If they changed it, I wonder why. Just look at the names: Hold the Line and Guarding imply that the original design intent was defensive. Would it not make sense for a fighter specialized in defensive techniques to be better able to guard himself against multiple opponents than, say, an untrained fighter or a wizard? Could we not imagine this fighter taking such a stance, and being so alert, as to better avoid being caught off guard or flanked? What would be the best forum so that this appeal would most likely be seen by a developer?

I decided to keep my stats the same when I restarted this last time after all . Only difference is I'm a Darkozzi and will take both Darkozzi talents, instead of a Shieldbearer who takes only one Shieldbearer talent (which isn't as good as I thought, because of small range and duration and not applying to self) and Hold the Line which is apparently completely useless for my party composition, seeing as it doesn't work like I thought it would. My stats are still 10/14/4/18/14/18. It would have been hard to give up the Per dialogue options even without the gameplay considerations. And when Deflection is traded for Accuracy... hey, it's probably not that bad, even for a tank. I mean, it's good for a tank to hit reliably even if they don't do much damage. The Darkozzi talent for FoD I'm guessing depends on FoD actually landing, like the Shieldbearer one seemed to from my experience. Edit: The one thing I have to be really careful of is to not try to be diplomatic anymore, as it might be possible to confuse diplomatic and stoic, which is a disfavored trait for Darkozzi. Honest is still beneficial for quests, so that's what I'll pick if I don't see any options that seem passionate or clever. (I choose to play with the giveaway mode off.)

Simple question. It says "while wielding a single one-handed melee weapon." A shield is not a weapon, but you never know how game mechanics work out in practice. So would it be viable for Eder to take this as well as Weapon and Shield Style and Confident Aim? I'm assuming One-Handed Style and Confident Aim stack, as well as Zealous Focus and flails, so if the two Styles can be used together, you could get up to 85% graze-to-hit. Yes?

Well I'll be darned, that's another case of the Wiki being wrong/outdated. I read the in-game Cyclopedia and it says a flat two enemies, not "more enemies than the engagement limit." I also did some testing and watched closely, unfortunately confirming it. This was my primary rationale for taking the talent, the other being that I thought it might make the tank better at holding the enemies in place. Apparently, this might not be true either. The Cyclopedia does say that, when an enemy is first engaged, it is forced to stop. But it seems enemies almost always stop at the tank anyway (if they're properly positioned). To me, that says there is only one advantage to Hold the Line: the possibility of doing an disengagement attack on an additional enemy. However, in my experience, the only time most enemies will disengage is when there's a melee DPS, which I don't even have in my party. So, for my party, it does seem like a totally useless talent after all. To restart yet again or not, that is the question... argh lol! Edit: Well, I guess it'd be a justification to switch from Shieldbearer to Darkozzi then, seeing as I could use that extra talent to get Inspiring Liberation. Maybe it won't be too boring, as I'll be RPing differently, maybe opening up more options since I'd be free to be Aggressive. I wonder if I should also lower my Per a bit for more Might or Con, in preparation for 2.0. Not dump it, but trade a little...

The DB one gives 2 Lvl 2 and 1 Lvl 4. Wow, I like the other one better, looking forward to it (no spoilers please!)

Would that be with the Lvl 3 bonus spell talent and an item I haven't found yet (I'm only in Defiance Bay) that gives me an extra Lvl 3 spell?

Just answered this in the other thread. Best to you!

Well, I've restarted the game more times than I'd like to know, but I know the IE mod lets you do console commands to remove and add abilities or talents. I don't think there's any way to do this without the mod, and I forget whether it messes up your Steam achievements (if you're even on Steam). I don't use it because I've heard it has had issues in the past, and you're on your own if you run into an issue. If the main game has an issue, you can report it so the devs can fix it. But if you're ok with all that, you can go ahead and try the IE mod.

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Flanked I know that Wiki is often outdated in its info, so please let me know if you have a specific reason to believe this has changed. It reads "Engaged by more enemies than the engagement limit." If this is actually how it works, then increasing the engagement limit would increase the enemies needed to trigger this status effect, no?

Well, I think it would make sense at least for rank 3 spells to become Per Encounter at level 13, in keeping with a pattern of level 9 - rank 1, level 11 - rank 2. That means a wizard's Expose Vulnerabilities, Deleterious Alacrity of Motion and Minor Blights would all become Per Encounter. Can you imagine the hurt? And it'd still leave room for something like Arcane Dampener or Displaced Image for situational use.