SamuraiGaijin

I leik this. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah cool. I thought K2 did that. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The Duxn Tomb Raid/Battle for Onderon party split was one of the highlights of K2, but I don't think the importance of either was well explained, and it was just another piece of the four-part intermediate quest - I want something like this, but more complex and involved in the final conflict. I want to believe that my whole party was important - not just the PC. I want to achieve a minor objective in one path then shift to another, and see how one party's actions influences the others' objectives. While this is hard to script, it's not impossible - I did it a few times as a PnP RPG GM, and my players were on the edges of their seats for hours as the "final conflict" resolved itself in multiple places/settings with each PC's actions important to the final outcome. One possibility that this brings is meaningful sacrifice of NPC's (self-sacrifice for LS, or sacrifice by the choices the PC makes for DS).

It would depend on the reviews - I definitely won't snatch it off the shelves knowing nothing about it. That said, I knew K2 was buggy and flawed when I bought it, so the reviews would have to be REALLY harsh - I just finished K1 in preparation for a media-enhanced K2 romp (I do like these games, in spite of their flaws).

One of the things I really enjoyed about most of the Star Wars movies was the relatively complex action at the end of the movies ... - In TPM there were four major conflicts at the end: Anikan space battle, Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul; Amidala retakes her palace; and Gungans vs. Droids - all at the same time, and the outcomes of some relied on the outcomes of some of the others - In ATC I was actually kind of dissappointed - Amidala/Anikan/Obi-Wan arena -> Jedi/Clones/Droids arena -> Clones/Droids battle -> Anikan/Obi-Wan vs. Count Dooku -> Yoda vs. Count Dooku - while on their own, they were pretty cool, the sequential nature was pretty lame - In RTS I was similarly dissappointed with the ending - while the Anikan/Clones vs. Jedi Temple / Order 66 battles were kind of coincidental, they were lame - the coolest thing about the Obi-Wan/Vader battle was that their styles and tactics were almost identical (highlighting the Master/Apprentice relationship, IMO) - In ANH there were three major conflicts at the end: Luke/Leia/Han/Chewie/R2/3PO escape from the Death Star; Obi-Wan/Vader duel (which now has a lot more meaning); and the Death Star battle - granted, these were more or less sequential - and the Death Star battle was so long that you could say there was only one "final battle", but it was still fairly ground-breaking for action movies of the time. - In ESB there were two major conflicts - Luke/Vader and Leia/Chewie/3PO/R2/Lando catch up with Boba Fett/escape Cloud City - In RTJ there were three major conflicts - Luke Vader/Emperor, Lando/Death Star, and Han/Leia/Chewie/Ewoks/et al vs. Imperial Troops ... and if you believe that Palpatine had some measure of "Battle Meditation" influence over the Imperial Fleet (and notice that the tide didn't really turn in the Rebels' favor until after he died) then they ALL had some measure of influence over each other - had the timing been different for any of them, the outcome would have been significantly different. The ending of RTJ (except for the Ewoks) sets the standard, IMO, for how a SW story should end ... severel inter-dependent conflicts resolving together, the outcomes of which determine the fate of the galaxy - KotOR did a fairly good job of this (the space battle and the battle inside the Star Forge), but I would have liked to have more influence over both - TSL didn't (sure, you've go the Mira/Hanhaar and Remote sidebars, but these were comparatively lame and pointless), this was a major dissappointment for me. I want to be forced to split my whole party into groups, each group with a separate objective as important as the others.

I voted Kreia - she's an exceptionally manipulative b!tch, even if she ultimately fails in her goal of "killing the force". Revan - tactically a genius, and a total badass, but even the roleplayed DS K1/K2 Revan was something of a dissappointment from a "influence the galaxy for evil" point of view. Malak - badass moron - even droids (HK-47 and G0-T0 have lines to this effect) can see that. Sios - another badass moron. Nihilus - looks cool, but too easily weakened and beaten - plus, we never really know his motive (aside from hunger).

I've had mixed success getting converted characters LS Mastery ... sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

Regarding the comments that the SW Universe is tired ... has anyone else played a PnP RPG based on Star Wars? I GM'd a SW:RPG game for about five years when the first (West End Games) SW:RPG came out (late '80's). While the game mechanic was somewhat clunky, it was simply a means to an end - my friends and I got to role play in a universe that we loved - and I felt I knew the universe as intimately as any LucasArts "continuity expert". My game was set between SW:ANH and SW:RotJ - and there were only a few comic books and even fewer novels out, so the "expanded universe" was very small in comparison to whay we have today. Jedi characters were few and far between - there was one PC out of about a dozen, and two NPC's (not including the major characters from the stories - which my PC's never met) out of the probably hundreds that I created. SW:RPG made no illusion about whether or not your PC's were "heroes" either - they had higher base stats that your average guy on the street. While they might have had a "normal guy" background, they were destined for something great. Big picture - I take offense at the idea that any genre or universe is too old or cliched or tired for a imaginative story writer to create an immersive game that brings us back to the great diversion which has been Star Wars. The dearth of expanded universe stories that are out there has, in my opinion, enhanced the creative possibilities rather than stifled them. While it has been over a decade since I gathered up my friends around the dinner table an spun a tale in which they played a critical role in saving a small part of the galaxy far, far away, I still crack open my weather- and time-worn West End Games books every now and then and see great potential for a heart-pounding and heart-string-pulling adventure. I still look back fondly on a time when all my friends were a short bicycle ride away, didn't have as many real-life distractions - jobs, kids, and such, and could dedicate a weekend to playing a role in my galaxy. KotOR has helped me relive those times - and for that I offer Bioware, Obsidian, and LucasArts my thanks.

Serious BUMP ... I thought this thread was dead long ago ... It is every three levels (at 12, 15, 18, etc.) and I believe the max power of the crystal can be achieved if you're 36th level (but I don't have my notes from that experiment with me, so I can't confirm).

Lots of discussion, but not much new ... - I agree with the underwater locale idea, and the submersible cut-scene was one of my favorites - however, major changes to the game engine would be required to really make it work, though - being able to truly pilot vehicles, a "swimming" mode for characters, etc. - I think melee combat without lightsabers is over-rated (though I did like that melee-fighters got a bonus when fighting blaster-weilders) - I think to make the ranged weapons more interesting, each flavor (blasters, disruptor/disintegrators, ions, sonics - and possibly even different brands of blasters) should have a distinct sound and look. - For those wanting less focus on jedis, KotOR is about the jedi ... get over it ... if you don't want to play as a jedi, don't - wear armor, use blasters and blades, don't use force powers - or play another game. - I missed the "affects" display from K1 too.

I voted for the Telos - the Czerka mercenaries on the surface outside of the base usually leave me with only Kreia or the Exile standing, Bao Dur drops almost instantly. Other hard spots (at least the first time): - optional handmaiden fight (plus, the reward is not worth the trouble) - Atton vs Twin Suns (unless you have a good vibro and melee shields handy) - Mira solo in the Jek Jek Tar hideout (once you figure out that all you HAVE to do is get to the access panel, it's not that hard, and mines are that girl's best friend) - Vrook (until you hide behind one of the columns) - The entrance to the Sith Tomb on Duxn - In the Trayus Academy - the passageway where four commandos have you in a crossfire while battling three sith - Kreia final battle

They all have their pros and cons ... like most good choices in a role-playing game ... Double Lightsaber PRO: can do more damage (especially with the <name> crystal and a good damage-based crystal), extra attack CON: have a penalty "to hit", score critical hits less often, and may limit the effectiveness of some ability-based upgrade crystals (2 crystals that affect DEX, for example, don't "stack") Single Lightsaber - Usually my choice for early game (I always build a single-hilt lightsaber) PRO: classic look, standard stats CON: may limit the effectiveness of some ability-based upgrade crystals Dual Wield (Regular, Short) - Usually my choice for the middle of the game PRO: Most upgrade flexibility, extra attack CON: Less average damage, penalty "to hit" Dual Wield (2x Regular) - Usually my choice for the end of the game PRO: Most upgrade flexibility, extra attack CON: Worst penalty "to hit" (but at higher levels, this just isn't as significant) I think the dual wield option is the most powerful, as it gives you the best upgrade options (right-hand saber with the <name> crystal and a good bonus crystal and left had saber with two more ability-plussing crystals is usually the path I take). I think the single wield option is the most elegant, most accurately depicts the norm for Jedis, and is a great option for non-WeaponMaster / Marauder Jedi (it was a HUGE dissappointment to me to find out that WM offered bonus feats for dual-wield and not duelling). I personally don't like double sabers - the penalty "to hit" (compared to a single-hilt) and limited upgrade potential (compared to dual-wield) is not IMO overcome by the slightly greater damage.

A "good feature" would have been adjustable HUD size. A "good quick fix" IMO is HUD size that scales pixel-for-pixel (appears smaller on 1280x1024 than 800x600) - if you're cranking up the resolution, you trade looks for easy game play. A "lazy quick fix" IMO is HUD size scales with the screen size (takes up the same amount of real estate regardless of the resolution).

Hsiss exploit does work for light side, you just have to fight (mines can help speed up the process ... after G0T0's yacht you should have somewhere around 40 deadly frag mines to waste - you can only plant 15 at a time, so you can either kill a few or wound almost all of them) all the hsiss. It takes significantly longer, but it works, especially since LS characters can't die in that part of the tomb. Good for a few extra levels, but it gets very old very quickly.

marblex - I agree with most of your points, and you brought light to some flaws that I had not seen discussed much here before (hard to do). You should install the pacifist upgrade, and do it with T3-M4 in your party ... the dialog is absolutely priceless (and you think the "cheap imitations ... not even the right color" dialog was good ...). Also, play darkside, with him in your party as much as possible to get to the best parts of his dialog in K2.

It sounds like your graphics card is having a hard time switching from the movie screen resolution (800x600, I believe) to whatever resolution you're playing the game with - or maybe switching from 2d to 3d (I'm pretty sure the movies are recorded and not rendered real time). A driver upgrade may be in order ... Also, are you running any third-party AGP controlling software? Are you overclocked?

Sometimes, if you wait for the "combat" music to stop, your character will be able to move. Most of the time, a quicksave and reload will fix the problem. I remember the quicksave/reload not working for me once or twice, and exiting the game, and loading the quicksave recovered the problem. I've got a pretty good gaming rig: p4/3.0, 1gb RAM, 6600GT AGP; and I still get this occasionally - most of the time, just waiting for the combat music to end is all it takes. I have had seom framerate issues on Dantooine, usually when the Koonda vents are blocked from view by another structure (the entrance from the landing pad, for example) or are just barely off-screen but these usually clear up after a few seconds (and go away entirely when I disable optional effects - gress, shadows, pixel flare, etc.)

I voted for the Clone Troopers - I especially liked the forest-camo armor seen in RTS on the Wookie home world (can't spell it at the moment). Had GL used actual soldiers (rather than slouching extras) in the Storm Trooper armor in ANH, etc. I might have a different opinion - the only ones who looked competent and comfortable in their armor were the Snow Troopers in ESB and Biker Scouts in RTJ. The coolest armor in all the movies goes to Leia's disguise as Boussh in RTJ.

Most of the recent ideas (Dranoel's and Darth Vossk's) leave me a bit non-plussed. I like the KOTOR formula ... but think it could be improved ... - I think you should start the game as a better-than-average Padawan, with little or no previous contact to the Exile or Revan, and then be placed in a situation where you end up saving (or conquering) the galaxy. - Race should be selectable. - The setting for KOTOR will continue to focus around Jedi/Sith and lightsabers ... get over it (or play another game). - The game system is fine (and actually preferred for old-timers like me who don't want to learn another damn ruleset ... I grew up playing D&D, and while I haven't made the complete shift to d20, I have played the PnP version a couple of times, and it works) - there just needs to be more depth (i.e.: more than three levels of feats and powers) to the advancement, if you're going to go beyond 20th level. - It's not a FPS, not a simulation, and not a strategy game ... if you want that, play something else. - I agree that there should be more choices ... Light, Dark, and Grey ... more planets to visit (I'm thinking at least ten in the mid game, with at least six pieces to the main quest that can be found on more than one of the planets) ... better dialog choices. - The supporting cast must be meaningful - I want to care about the people I'm forced to travel with. - The story must (1) make sense (I spent over half of my first run through KOTOR II trying to figure out what the plot was), (2) make me care about it, and (3) have diversity and choice in the possible endings. I get the feeling that the KOTOR story is ultimately about Revan, but honestly could care less if he/she makes an appearance, or is even a secondary focus to the next plot line. If I want to care about Revan again, I'll play KOTOR I or read some fanfic. If Revan does become a key figure in the plot, it should be as an NPC, and not until the latter part of the game. I wish the music was full-quality 3d, but the SW-themed music of the games is good. It helps me believe that we're in the SW universe. Star Wars was, by the way, the FIRST movie ever with a music soundtrack throughout the movie - the music belongs in the game. As far as the KOTOR fashion goes - I'd just be happy with some cool-looking (i.e.: not purple, red, orange, etc.) armor and maybe an actual helmet (instead of just a visor, sunglasses, or headband).

Getting Mira to become Jedi takes a bit of careful dialog selection, as well ... at least she thanks you for showing her the path ... while her voice-acting is a bit hyperactive, it suits her character, but the dialog between her and the exile when she is shown the force is one of the most touching in the game. From Kreia's dying dialog, Mira essentially stops hunting people and starts helping people, and ultimately dies in a noble cause (if you're light side - I don't know her fate if you're dark side). One assumes that she escapes Malachor V on the Ebon Hawk with the rest of the party.

A CRPG is generally and traditionally defined as a game where the chance of success and failure is random, and you can improve your character over the course of the game to be more or less likely to succeed in the various actions available in the game. In the strictest definition, it's a simulation of a tabletop RPG. Almost all computer games have developed over the past several years to improve the "immersion" factor - typically with more player-character development, more robust non-player-character interaction and more interaction with the game world. While an RPG should be focused more on world interaction and the choices you make than the mechanic, the same can be said of all games. If you make a bad choice in a simulation, a first-person shooter, a strategy game, etc. you'll probably fail in whatever you were trying to accomplish. Using some of the debating points presented against a game being defined as an RPG by the mechanic, you could define almost any game as an RPG. That said, one fo the things that will make an RPG worth playing is meaningful choices that you can make that influence the above and the overall story of the game Many posting here have used "choices" in one way or another to define "role playing game", but these can also be found in most games that are worth playing. In a nutshell, I agree with Ender.

HK-47 in both, by far ... while the development of T3-M4 from K1 to K2 was impressive, I enjoyed the dialog with HK-47 immensely. HK's dialog option was the ONLY reason to upgrade repair in K1 - and once, just to see how hard it was, I played through the Star Forge (as DS Consular) with HK-47 and Canderous (both maxed out with blaster-related feats and equipment) and had only moderately more trouble than with Jedi or melee characters. Once again, the Passive HK Processor upgrade in K2 still has me falling out of my chair laughing every time - and while it's difficult to get the influece high enough to access it, HK's regular dialog in K2 is worth it, too - and with focus on sniper shot and precise shot feats (max'ing the potential for use of his assassination protocols), HK can hold his own in a melee-intensive fight with a souped-up disruptor rifle (ideally, Charric).

For Jedi characters, Ossus Keeper Robes is the way to go - especially for male characters, who (after sparring with Handmaiden) can add the extra +2 WIS bonus to defense. For pure combat capability for non-Jedi, Felenar Armor (+11 Defense, +4 Max DEX Bonus) with Flexible Underlay (+3 DEX, +3 Max DEX Bonus) and Bonded Plates Mk IV is the way to go. Asthetically, the M'uhk'gfa is actually quite stylish for a female character (nice light purple shading - not at all what you'd expect from custom-made Gamorrean armor), and adds damage resistance for melee and energy attacks to boot. I also like the looks and high Max DEX Bonus of the Electromesh Suit, Electromesh Armor, and Sith Battle Suit. All that said - I voted for robes - upgradable robes, particularly. One of these days I'm going to cheat code my way into getting all the different flavors of robes and take a look at them. I like the looks of most of what I've seen so far. I do wish the Jal Shey and Zeison Sha armors didn't look so gay, though.

While I truly enjoyed the workbench's new utility, the best improvement to the game, IMHO, was the characters' back stories - I also liked that the "force bonds" that you form with them provide you with appropriate ability/save/combat bonuses. Unfortunately, in most cases, the influence system drove the stories too quickly - during my first K2 playthrough, I kept going back to each character and talking to them after almost every level-up, hoping to unlock another dialog option (as in K1). I would have liked to see more character-character interaction, as well - some of the party banter in K1 was truly priceless. Hmm ... thinking more about it ... I want to retract my vote - the back stories and associated side quests were done better in K1 ... oh well.

In the discussion with T3-M4 about the Bastila/Carth holo, you can learn that T3 was sent to find help, and found the Exile ... as for the voice locking, I'd bet T3-M4 has the key, otherwise, why would T3-M4 disable HK-47 when HK-47 asks him about the navicomputer? Along similar lines ... "how did HK-47 get disabled in the first place" - the mechanical reason is given ... suffered numerous blaster shots at close range - but the "why?" is not ... - I believe that Revan disabled him - to prevent HK-47 from following - and locked him in the alcove, knowing whatever help T3-M4 found (the Exile) would explore the ship, find HK-47, re-activate him, and bring him along to the Unknown Regions. Unfortunately, following this logic, these conclusions lead to one of things about the future of KOTOR (or some combination): - K3 will be about Revan and Exile in the Unknown Regions (since T3-M4 and HK-47 "have" to be central characters to the KOTOR series) - K3 will have yet another contrived reason to have T3-M4 and HK-47 relatively powerless, and with memory gaps (self-imposed or caused by irreparable damage) - K3 will not have T3-M4 or HK-47 at all, or will have limited cameo appearances. None of these are particularly appealing, as I really liked the character built into T3-M4 in K2, and still have extremely fond memories of plussing up repair, and trying to find repair-related items so that I could unlock HK-47's next - "and that's how my next master died" story in K1. " ... but I've never seen such devotion in a droid before."

Not that I know of. How? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If you're DS in the cave, kill the mercs, Vrook force waves you and runs off after some dialog (or leave him in the cage). Outside the cave Azkul and his mercs are there - either lie to him (for Kreia influence) or tell him you won't help him - then proceed to save Koonda (you can take all the DS options and still tell Azkul that you won't let him kill Adare). After the Koonda battle, if you're DS, you fight Vrook. I'm not sure exactly which part of the chain forces the fight with Vrook - most likely just being DS, regardless of wether or not you save koonda.

Another alternative is to have a more intuitive interface. The most commonly used powers (and items, for that matter) should be easy to find. One option (for the PC, anyway - not too familiar with the console controller - would be one mouse click to select the category, mouse wheel to toggle through the options, and a second click to use the item / power / attack style. This is nit-picking, though - throughout an entire game there were probably less than ten combat situations where being able to quick-cast heal (or being able to quickly find a repair kit, or medpac) would have kept a party member alive.