Dark Moth

As I've said, writing is important, and essential, but it is not the most important aspect. You've looked at RPG's and MMORPG's, but you have to take all games into consideration. Look at these games: Grand theft Auto, Halo 1 and 2, half-life 2, Diablo 1 and 2, Starcraft, Doom 3. These are all successful games, some even more so than KOTOR 1 and 2. But writing is not their most important aspect. I have played all these games and can say that for a fact. It's the actual gameplay and the emersion. Writing is essential, but it is not the most important investment to make. I'm not saying that writing isn't important or essential, quite the opposite. But when stacked with everything else for a game, it takes second priority many times. Writing will have a very different effect and importance depending on the game. If you've played all the games above, then feel free to argue. But if you haven't, then don't even try. And right now, I feel like the biggest ass because I keep wanting to stop posting and keep doing it. (sigh). Sorry about this, Jodo. I've been trying to say that this forum is not the place for this argument, yet these two (and me, unfortunately) keep doing it. That's what I get for playing moderator.

Before I go, I'm just going to say this in a civilized manner. I think ShadowPaladin is right when he says writing has no grabbing value. The audience who plays games is different from the audience who reads books. Book readers tend to look for good writing, gamers tend to look for other things - such as graphics, gameplay, etc. Just look at Halo. It is not the best written, and the story isn't that deep (especially in the first one) but it is a VERY popular game. Why? Many things: gameplay, graphics, overall experience, and of course being able to kill and blow up things, but writing isn't one of them. What ShadowPaladin is saying is that writing isn't what attracts gamers to games in the first place, it's the other things. Those are the things that grab attention before the game is played. Writing is something that's only looked at after the game is purchased and played. KOTOR is a good example. You are right, Metadigital, when you say that writing is important, but you must realize that it is not what most gamers look for. Writing is more of an icing that adds to the flavor of the game once it is actually played, not really an attention grabber.

No, don't be so ready to jump to conclusions. I know I must be in the minority, but I read all of a thread before posting. And this, being part SEVEN, has been a long time writing, and I have had to read through some unworthy drivel, without once making a snide remark. The Search function is also your friend, even if you don't follow normal netiquette and lurk first. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree I should've lurked, but you still didn't have to make the snide remark you did. It was an honest mistake, and at least i was contributing to the topic. If you wanted to tell me that it was an old idea, you could have at least done it in a less spiteful manner. What's amusing me most is that you two are fighting to the death over such a trivial topic and in the wrong forum. Go on. Make some sort of snide comeback (and if you weren't going to, I apologize). Me, I'm going to sit this one out. [goes back to popcorn] :cool:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Can I have some? I think I'm gonna sit this one out until it blows over. :cool:

No, actually, in point of fact, I didn't "attack you", I pointed out that if you had read the previous six parts of this loooooooooong thread, you would have seen your idea expressed before. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, if you weren't, then express your thoughts better so people don't interpret it that way. And besides, I don't always take time to read every single post in the thread, so I may have skipped over an idea. While that may have been my fault, you didn't have to mock me for it. If you weren't, it sure sounded like it. And for the third time, this is not the place to be arguing about what you're discussing. As I said, I didn't care that you two were arguing, just that you were doing it in an inappropriate forum.

Oh - and i'm not saying you are soley the culprit for this argument. You were the one who decided to attack me first, not ShadowPaladin, so what do you expect me to do? I wasn't the one who attacked you first, it was the other way around.

No, I have engaged in healthy exchange of views with a fellow in a democratic forum. You, on the other hand, have resorted to bullying tactics when you didn't get your way, and finally, the last bastion of the illiterate, the insult. Congratulations! Here's an idea, why don't you actually post something useful, rather than attack me. Because I promise you, you won't win that fight. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I tried posting something useful. I posted something that had to do with K3 and then tried to get you to stop arguing (big mistake). And then you go and mock me for doing both. You're the one who stepped so low into bullying, and you're the one who hasn't really been posting anything constructive. You've been spamming for the last 6 pages about something that shouldn't have even went this far. Personally, I wouldn't have cared if you did this in the "Way off topic" forum, but you chose to do it here. Threads have been locked for doing what you're doing. I tried being civil, but you clearly didn't want to be.

Yup. You win Metadigital. Everyone else is wrong and you are right. Frankly, i'm not going to waste anymore time with you. The only thing you've succeeded in doing is making an ass out of yourself. Here is what your posts for the last 6 pages have amounted to:

I have never tried to convince people to my point of view (however right I think it is). I have been defending my statements from those people who have — at least initially, I hope — raised some of their concerns. And, last time I checked, this was a discussion forum. We are involved in a (heated) discussion. If you want to prattle on about why you think the Exile is better than Revan, good for you. I'm not impeding your free speech, so — take my advice — I would ask you to respect my rights as well. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You're arguing about something that has practically nothing to do with the thread topic, has been going on forever, and is really not a big deal. And if you're not trying to convince ShadowPaladin you're right, then what the hell do you keep arguing for??!! yes, this is a discussion forum, but not for the kind of discussion you're having. And I never said the exile was better than Revan, just that I thought it would be a better idea to have him as the PC in K3. You misquoted me. And last time I checked, this is the K3 forum, and what I posted has very much to do with K3. If anything, you're the one whose prattling on about some topic you just can't seem to let go of. I'll say it again...

That's one reason why I think they should have the exile as the PC for K3. Doing another avatar would over-complicate things, I think, cause you'd have to be covering for 2 characters: one of whom has no name, and both of which have 4 different character possibilities. And pllllllleeeeeaaaaassse hasn't this gone on long enough? This is the K3 ideas thread, not the "personal arguments" thread. Seriously, if you two can't agree with each other, then at least don't spam the thread. At least argue in the "Way off Topic" forum. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1. Sorry to interupt your mundane recitation of hashed and re-hashed ideas. (Have you read the previous six parts of this thread?) At least add something unique, if you insist on adding the same point that has been mentioned a hundred times before. 2. I am quite happy to leave my contribution stand, except I have ShadowPaladin trying to "prove" his pov is more valid than mine. Every time ShadowPaladin posts a "must have the last word" lame response to my post, I shall point it out as such. 'Cause that's the kinda forumite I am. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Seriously Metadigital, not everyone is going to agree with you, no matter how hard you try. You're just as resonsible for posting spam for the last 6 pages. Remember: your opinions are opinions, not fact. My advice: get a life and learn to let things go.

That's one reason why I think they should have the exile as the PC for K3. Doing another avatar would over-complicate things, I think, cause you'd have to be covering for 2 characters: one of whom has no name, and both of which have 4 different character possibilities. And pllllllleeeeeaaaaassse hasn't this gone on long enough? This is the K3 ideas thread, not the "personal arguments" thread. Seriously, if you two can't agree with each other, then at least don't spam the thread. At least argue in the "Way off Topic" forum.

Well, to get back on topic and get a word in between Metadigital and ShadowPaladin tearing each other apart... As for party members, if they wanted to include more k1 party members (besides the droids) I'm thinking they could include Bastila. I think it'd be a feasible idea because she was an important character in K1, and regardless of her alignment she still is looking for Revan. The PC's choices on Revan's alignment would affect her alignment, and she could be one to give details of Revan's character and what he/she did between the events of K1 and K2. She could also have some kind of souped-up form of Battle Meditation as a force power, and a unique, upgradeable lightsaber. She might even be a romance interest for the male PC, depending on your choices on Revan's gender. I'm thinking they could include Mission as well. She too, could be looking for Revan and have different motives for joining you. If Revan was LS she could be looking for her old friend out of concern, or if Revan was DS she would be looking for revenge. If they wanted to take it further they could give you the option to turn her into a Jedi. She'd be around twenty in K3 (or older depending on when it starts), so she might be good for a romance. It might not work out, especially since these two were used in K1, but hey.

Are you two done, yet?

Well, if you even bothered to pay attention when your playing you would know that in both Kotors you couldn't always return to your home base. On Kashyyk, I can't tell you the number of times I was frustrated because I couldn't return to the Ebon Hawk. And if you're in combat, you can't do it anyway. Maybe you like walking 100 miles to get to your homebase, but not everybody. It's not spoonfeeding, it's conveniance. Besides, THIS IS A GAME! It's not going to be 100% realistic, no matter how hard you try! In a game, there's nothing wrong with doing minor things to make a player's life easier, instant travel being one of them.

You dare disrespect the almighty Bastila??!! You must be destroyed!!!

Um... I might be wrong, but as Draken's signature says he's in Vancouver, I would assume he already IS Canadian. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Umm... Woops! Didn't see that. BTW, great pic, Darth Spock!

Hey, what are you talking about, Baley? You voted for Mical cause you felt sorry for him! Unless there's something about you you're not telling us... :ph34r: :D

Yes, I know! But it's so hard to not yell at him! (sigh) Guess I'll have to just pray that the administrator finds him and uses the wonderful "ban" button. :D You haven

Yes, but the definition of influence is being able to convince others to your way of thinking. In K2, you weren't able to do that. If you stuck by with what you believed when an NPC disagreed with you, you lost influence. If they want to make it better, they should design it so that you can convince/manipulate people into agreeing with you to gain influence, even if they disagree with you at first. In K2, you had very little of that. Often, you had to choose dialogue options that were the opposite alignment of you if you wanted to gain influence. With HK-47, I frequently had to choose DS dialogue and loose my LS mastery just to gain influence with him. With that, it's not fun, it's just a chore. Just because something is "player friendly" doesn't mean it's spoon feeding. And I don't know if you noticed or not, but most people like not having to bust their brains just to gain a little dialogue and influence. From what I've seen and read, most people actually liked the K1 system better because it was an easy sure way of getting information from party members. The influence system would have been better, but it was poorly executed and so many people were dissatisfied with it.

Expressive and imaginitive? Try sick/perverted and lame. His posts seem more of a desperate cry for attention than anything else. <_< I'm counting down the number of days until he's banned. I do agree with you about posting in his threads - he seems to like the attention even with everyone telling him what a freak he is. But then again, we have to post spam somewhere right? Mothman: "[Force Persuade] You will stop posting topics and rethink your life." Eddo 36: "[success] I will stop posting topics and rethink my life."

It's cause all his fangirls are coming out of the woodwork for this poll. For example... Since HK-47 isn't on the poll, I'll to vote for my precious Bastila.

If they do include the influence system in K3, they should seriously rework it. It was a good idea, but poorly executed. In K3, they should design it so that you can get full influence with NPC's as both a LS and a DS. In K2, it was a pain having to play through again as a different alignment just to be able to earn full influence. And in many scenes, it seemed as if the NPC was influencing you, not the other way around. *cough*Kreia*cough*. One thing I did like was being able to do more than get just dialogue, but more rewards such as exp., abilities, or converting the party members into Jedi. K1 did that with HK-47, K2 took it a step further. If they can rework the influence system to make it more player-friendly, it'd be perfect.

One of the things that defines a tragic hero is the reader's sympathy for him/her. I felt no sympathy for Kreia, in fact I was glad when she died because her actions, IMO, were doing more harm than good. I feel the devs could have done a much better job on Kreia than they did. Time constraints had nothing to do with it, it was just poor writing and lack of planning. If anything, I thought Bastila (DS) was deep and more of a tragic hero than Kreia. As for Psycho, I think Norman Baits was the main character, not Janet Leigh's character, but that could also be a twist in itself. A protagonist can be a good guy or a bad guy, as we have often seen. (ex, Macbeth.) Kreia was no exception. Regarding romances in games, one of the problems is realism. There is the problem of having a deep romance with one character (K1-Bastila) versus very shallow romances with more than one character (K2). To be able to romance every character you come across would pose problems, namely difficulty. If they ever want to do romances with multiple characters, they should be deep and complete, not the lame ones we got in K2.

Bye, Draken! Be sure to practice your Canadian while up there, eh? (You know what I'm talking aboot.) :D (apologies to canadians) @ DF: I knew it! I knew there was something about Disciple we weren't told!