Volourn

Well.. not surprising. Afterall, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that KOTOR2 outsold JE in the UK (or anywhere for that matter, lol). LOL Congrats to both companies.

Jagr doesn't play on the penalty kill all that much. The coaches want him dominating the game, and scoring. They have their loser players to waste time killing penalties. P.S. The Sharks are 22nd on the PK... so, apparantly, Thornton and crew don't do a very good job 'defensively' on the PK.

"I wouldn't consider the +/- to be all that telling for defensive abilities. Gretzky was +98 one season, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't because of his monster defensive abilities (nor those of his linemates)." True. It's not neccesarily the ultimate way to tell; but it sure helps. It's the only stat that even comes close to helping in telling.

And, they're the bosses, so they auto win.

"Well, in Fallout you didn't have to help the vault or stopping the Master, or are you forgetting that ending." YOU LOSE is not a real ending. If that's a ending; you might as well just consider 'dying in battle' an ending. LOL "Certain parameters must be drawn, and accommodating for characters that 1/ care about childhood friend 2/ does not like getting kidnapped, tortured, robbed and generally screwed and (you forgot this one) 3/ is not tempted by Irenicus' talk of untapping your potential" 3 different motivations isn't soemthing that should be complained. It's certainly more than the vast majority of games, and surely is on equal footing with FO's main quest in that regard at the very least. You also forgot the choice of 'retire the character ins tronghold', and end the game that way. LOL "is a lot more sensible than accommodating for a character that cares about none of these things and is happy to simply walk away after having been tortured and seeing his comrades killed/kidnapped." Anyone who wa splaying a character liek that probably does not about role-playing. It seesm lame that anyone playing a character that went through the events of BG1 9either by defualt or actuality) would likely not be the type to be tortured and simply move on. Talk about lameity role-playing, indeed. "That initial dungeon in BG2 was pretty pathetic." Second best start to a game ever.

Yeah. And, in FO, I didn't care about helping the vault or stopping the Master. The list goes on... P.S. Irneicus would eventually come after you anyway so you had to face him. You ar ejust being silly.

"But he is also risking his life to save himself. Also Epics need to be long. A 30 hour CRPG is too short to be considered epic." Yes, but what's his goal? Is his goal to save the world or is it to save himself? Motivation here is the key. Good exmaple is BG2 when Irenicus kidnaps Imoen. There are two motivations for hunting him down: 1. To rescue Imoen. This is the heroic reason. 2. To avenge Irenicus kidnapping, and torturing you. That's a personal (and selfish) reason to do so. Not heroic. As for '30 hours being too short'. You ahev no proof. You arejust pulling random numbers out of your behind. As Grom pointed out, various poems have been refered to as 'epics' (ala ballads) and they're nowhere 30 hours. Heck, you said a movie has to be 3-4 hours to be epic... again, why? Why does a game need to be that much longet than a movie to be considered epic? Illogical illogicy.

"In that case, ALL the save-the-world heroes aren't heroes, since if the world is doomed, so are they." No. Not quite true. You are risking your life for the rest of world (and, not just for a reward) so you are a hero in that sense.

"Of course this is for official game products only." Not quite. Official products are offical as longas WOTC/Hasbro say so no matter how many changes to the core pnp rules are. It's their games; their rules.

"Hmmm... So it has to be long. Well, that excludes Bioware's games except the Baldur's Gate games." No. "For a CRPG to be considered epic it needs to be at minimum 60 hours long on one's first play through. Also I didn't feel particularly heoric in NWN or KotOR." Oh really? That is very illogical. 60 hour sminimum is what's needed? Where to I find that defintion? Actually, you are more heroic in NWN1 than you are in either KOTOR (though one cnaa rgue this game qualifies) or BG since it's not relaly heroic if you are trying to save yourself. LOL Heroism is about helping others than yourself.

"In the most important games of the year the Rangers as a team as really sucking it up. To me, Jagr is alot like Kobe Bryant, in that he'll take most of the shots, get most of the points, but really won't make anyone around him better by playing as a team. Sure some guys will benefit from the "doubleteams" but not consistantly, not in the way that makes a team great through great passing. Plus Thornton shows up on defense, and as I remember hockey is one of those two way sports." Eh? Jagr does make the team better. He's the reason they have a chance to win the division, and have made the play-offs for the first time in years. And, oh, Jagr plays pretty good D. He doesn't have one of the best +/- in the league by accident (in fact, he's #1). Jagr has made players like Nylander, and Straka perform better than they actually are. Afterall, there's a reasonw hy the Rangers were supposedly going to be dead last this year. Jagr is the reason why they're one of the better teams. Thornton has been awesome for the Sharks; but that team has other players that are actually very good. Anyways, congrats to both Cheechoo and Thronton for the goal and point victories. Even more reason why Thornton doesn't deserve MVP (as great as he is); he isn't the only one producing. Just look at the Rangers' secondary RW and comapre it to the Sharks' secondary C. Jagr still have avery slaim chance of winning the MR and Art Ross; but it is very, very doubtful now. The main thing is winning the last game of the season to win the division. If MVP was for the last 10 games than sure Thornton/Cheechoo deserve it; but MVP is for the ENTIRE season, and is given to the player most important to their team's success - that is obviously Jagr. Though Thornton is a deserving alternative as well. P.S. Leafs had a good run; but too little too late.

He's referring to Bastila's 'betrayal'...

"You never really say "I think such and such sucks" you generally say "Such and such sucks" like it's some great fact or something " EVERYONE on the net does it. I have yet to see ONE person to do otherwise.

Yes.

I think they're the same as NWN1. At least that's what i got from it. Menaing, basically, they weren't touched at all. Besides, the NWN1 domain set up, while not an exact replica of pnp, aren't that bad. They get their point across, anyways, and the idea behind them is the same.

I am honoured that the Great Gromnir feels the need to use my silly sayings! HA! Good fun!

"It's not even a purposeful snub. It's just the fact that you get more exposure on East Coast teams. The games are earlier, sportcasters see more of them, blah blah blah. Any sportscaster in the business will admit that they see way less of the Pacific Timezone teams" This a good point.

Don't call your posts lame... That's mean to yourself. :ph34r:

"MVP is actually supposed to be given to the most valuable player for his team. Jagr is the best player in the league this season, but that isn't the same as being the most valuable player to his team. Honestly, I haven't watched him enough this year to know what he does for everyone around him. It sounds like he's winning games single handedly, which isn't the same as elavating his team to the next level. They are just along for the ride." You are right, and wrong. MVP isn't about who the best player is. It's whose most valuable to the team. The fact that Jagr = Rangers' success while Thornton is 'just' a HUGE part of the Shark's suc cess. Another way to put it is this: Without Jagr, the Rangers would be absolutely nothing. They'd be sleeping with Washington, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and Chicago. Without Thornton, while the Sharks wouldn't be as good as they are now, they'd at leats be still fighting for a play-offs (though likely on the losind end). Plus, there's the fact, that without Cheechoo, they'd be struggling to make the play-offs as well. The Rangers don't have another player that they absolutely must have to make the play-offs or win the division. That's why Jagr is the MVP in most people's mind (except here at Obsidian where everyone likes to be contary to me, lol - not neccessarily on purpose but on reflex :D ). Also, MVP isn't about 'making teammates better'; but most valuable to ones' team though I argue that Jagr does make his temamates better. Just look at his linemates whoa re having decent (not great) seasons and it's most likely diretcly linked to playing with the JJ. "But if you've watched Thornton, particularly down this stretch run, it's very hard to say he doesn't deserve the MVP." It's not that Thornton doesn't deserve a MVP nod. He most certainly is deserving. But, he simply isn't the *most* valuable player in the league. "Which brings me to the East Coast bias. It's very evident in hockey for numerous reasons. The national TV networks are in NY, ESPN in is Connecticut, and 22 of 30 NHL franchises are in the Eastern or Central timezones. East coast games are just seen by more people." This isn't really evidence of anything. Bias means more than this. The fact that the offices are on the East Coast means nothing other than the HNL was mostly EC before the expansion exploison (just look at the Original 6 where only Chicaago isn't on the EC (they're CT). Bias, in this case, would mean players getting favors just for being on the EC. If Jagr wins MVP it would be simply because he was on an EC team; but because he earned it. " It sounds like he's winning games single handedly, which isn't the same as elavating his team to the next level. They are just along for the ride." This certainly sounds like MVP material to me. He elevates his team. He SINGLEHANDEDLY makes his team better. Thornton does to; but certainly not to the same degree as Jagr does. That's the key. Points themslves only help to a certain point. All this proves is Jagr is so valauble that he's on the ice more. Also, it should be pointed out that JJ is tied for the league lead with +/1 (not that Thornton's +/- is bad as it's awesome too); but that also says a lot. Great discussion.

Uhuh... If you say so...

And? Most RPGs that actually have interesting characters have that occur. I say look at the substance of the betrayal, and not the actual act.

You are wrong. You must have liked the OC considering you've played it a lot. More than I have most assuredly. LOL

Yes, and no.

Yes, Thornton deseves a look at MVP no doubt about it. But, as you said, Jagr is taking the Rangers single handedly. That is the defintion of MVP. And, this 'east coast bias' is silly created by mythmongers from the West Coasters. And, the Art Ross and Hart are two different trophies given to people for two different reasons. The Hart shouldn't be given as Runner Up prize. That devalues it as a trophy. Art Ross is easy. It's given to who has the most points which in this case is either Jagr or Thornton. The Hart should be given to the who the voters feel are the most valuable. And, oh btw, it's not a guarantee that Jagr will win the Maurice Richard trophy. He only has a 1 goal lead, on you guess it, Thornton's partner in crime - even more reason to call Jagr MVP as he does it alone. P.S. The Rangers aren't guaranteed the division yet. That will likely be decided on Saturday... P.S. I do not believe Jagr has an e at the end of it.

The word 'revolutionary' is jst a key selling point. veryone uses it as hype. It means nothing - much like the words epic, blockbuster, and many others.