Volourn

No.

Eldar wins as always.

"So, basically, the "heroes" fought through these orcs having no idea who the UBB was, and it was revealed just prior to their defeating him? Okay. It isn't a terrible concept, and I can see why you didn't want them to know what was going on in the background; it made very little sense. Not a campaign I would consider particularly memorable, or fulfilling, and I doubt any of the guys I play with would continue playing through a game that seemed like "the orcs are attacking and you must stop them." Are you even reading this thread? It was not revealed to them just 'prior' to their defeating him. The first tijme (well.. technically the second time), HE defeated them. They first got hints by the captured spy (before it refused to say anymore) that 'his Chief' really wanted to know as much as possible about them,a nd he really wnat them to suffer and die.. that he had a grudge aginst them... Then he stopped talking, and the PCs (well.. the more aggresive one) killed it. So, the course of what occured was brought to the PCs attention through a slow process. Remember, the campaign here took MONTHS. And, that's real time. In game terms, it was a good couple of years. Remember, the PCs had many reasons to want to stop the shaman. Even more they found out who he was. Afterall, it was HIS motivation; not theirs. As for how he went from 'just an orc shaman' to 'powerful shaman chief'; the same way the farmboy goes from commoner to hero or Soth goes from mere human to knight to death knight. A process that takes time... Keep spinning though. Good fun.

The Dragon wins.

"Moreover, wouldn't it be nice for you, as a consumer, to have more information. You're being pig-headed. All I'm asking is for you to put aside the argument and take a look at it. Really." I don't need any more info as a consumer. I know enough about NWN2 - both good and bad - that my decision to purchase it has already been made. A short OC doesn't influence me this. The fact that NWN is my fave RPG (to the chagrin to many, heh), and the sequel promises interesting indepth multiple henchmen, lots of roleplaying in the OC as well as a toolset to play for years to come is enough to convince me it's a worthwhile purchase. If NWN2 OC's proposed length is enough to get you not to buy it then don't. Until another length is quoted that's the length we should go by. "You know why Gromnir wants to make a big deal of this? Because if enough of us take the issue seriously, so will Obsidian" the problem is that some like Grom, Hades, and Di (not you) feel that anyone who doesn't care one way or other about the OC length are simply Obsidian fanboys. That's silly talks. i've alreayd voiced cocnern over various aspects of NWN2's design... it's length isn't one of them, and this admonishment of my presumed fanboyism is silly and needs to be brought down. "Read my position in the previous thread. I've come to Gromnir's position. I didn't come to it not because I want to make a stink about the length of the game. I do think that the head of a company is obligated to be clear and forthright about his product. Don't you?" Sure. But, not neccesaarily on some silly message baord where a very small percentage of potential customers read. That's what future intrviews, questions, et al. will be for. Or do you think we are more deserving of info then those who don't read these message baords? That said, if Mr. Urquhart decides to post he ron the subect to clarify or whatever, I won't complain. It's the demanding or the self arrogant expecation that he will or should that gets me. We don't pay to use these boards so he owes us nothing.

"But I was led to believe by Volo that there WAS a degree of buildup and explanation?" There was. Check above. SS is making stuff as usual.

"Okay... so you now recognize the face of your enemy. It's the orc you chased off awhile back. Yeah, I know he hasn't been present in the story much, and there is no build-up, explanation, or delivery regarding why he is back, bigger and stronger than ever. He is, though." Oh please. That's now how it occured, little one. When they first started struggling with him they didn't even realize who the orc was. In fact, the PCs were surporised that this particular orc had some sort of personal vendeeta against outside of the usual orc kill all stuff. They were also suprirsed when they eventually found the orc tribe and realized it wasn't the Big Bad Powerful Chief that they were told stpories about; but a cleric... which is why the first battle did not go well for the PCs... The build up occured when the orc sent more organized orcs to hunt,a nd track the PC. The PCs even caught one orc who wasn't sent to attack them; but to spy... something the old chief would have *never* done. And, this orc wasn't suspectible to torture so they couldn't get much out of him. By the time they met the orc, the PCs only knew he was a threat to them, their loved ones, and their village. Only when the actual confrontation took place were they informed that this wans't some simple orc wanting to murder and loot all; but a personal revenge. And, in fatc, in their own way, the PCs had *created* the villain with their earlier bloodlust against the orcs. "The concept of a beaten shaman rising to power and returning for revenge" Oh please. it's not the first time a beaten enemy has returned 'stronger than ever'. "cares if they know what they rolled, so long as they don't know why they're rolling. If they rol a 20, the outcome is the same as if you had." Wrong. A hide/ms roll, remove traps, etc.'s effect on the game can be ruined if the player knows they failed before the fallout of such a roll is given. Example: Trying to find secret doors. Player rolls. They see they've failed... so they'll repeatedly try again (unless the Dm tells them no). Instea do the headache it's better for the Dm to roll the attempt so the player doesn't know if they failed or not so they'll move on. Game over. Set. Match.

"Yes. They don't know what they're rolling for. I simply say "roll d20." They make the roll, but have no idea what it is for. Could be a perception roll, a stealth roll, tons of things. I fail to see how that gives anyone an advantage." That's not too bad then. Though, espicially true in 3E, the higher the die roll the better it is - almost uniformlys o simply not telling them why they are rolling doesn't help. For the record, for things like combat (attack, damage rolls, saving throws) or skills where the result would be obvious (most item crafting), I do allow players to roll. "The presentation, in other words, was actually horrible for any sort of identification / immersion / belief." In my defense on this, I'm going by memory of something that occurs a good few years ago. Think 2E. Of course it's garbled. I no longer have my notesnor am I spending hours trying to remember exactly... just what comes to mind. Other than that, thanks.

"If Obsidian is not a publicly traded company, then I suppose he might not have shareholders. Of course, could we agree that he has a share in his own company. The other... four? people who founded the company with him have a share." I'm sure the other owners ar ein the lopp as much as they can be depending on their respective responsibilities. My point is that him responding this thread does nothing but give us posters ven more fodder. I take this interview for what it's worth - the interviewer asked how long the OC was, and he gave an estimate that he thought was fair. It may be accurate it may not be. Afterall, awhile back, he had said the OC would be 30-40 hours. Things change. Him posting here does nothing. And, it's not about winning or losing. It's about me feeling that posters here (and elsewhere) somehow think that companies owe them something. The only thing they owe us is agame if we buy it. When I bought KOTOR, I bought KOTOR. Not the right to demand answers to my every whim on future games (or even KOTOR for that matter - within reason - asking for bug help/fixes ok as longa s it remains respectful). "I'm saying that game designers who make false statements regarding their products end up suffering for it." True. To a point. Not always the case though.

"I never make rolls for PCs. In my experience they don't like it. If a player commits an act, they make the roll. I do allow "freebie" benefits, as you outlined, but they roll it themselves." I see. So, you allow players to make hide/move silently rolls? So they'll likely know if they're being sneaky or not (ie. roll high or low).. right.... That gives the player a HUGE advantage....

"So what?" The problem is that he didn't have any uber powers which accoridng to SS all UBB. must. have. Only Knights turned Death like Soth or Godchildren like Sarevok qualify as 'interesting' or 'cool' or 'believeable'. LOLOLLIPOP P.S. Thanks for your support. :cool: P.P.S. I don't think I broke any actual orc culture or Gruumish rule, however... P.S.S. Like I said, 'dice cheating' shouldn't occur; but like always there are exceptions to this rule like most rules. I don't do it often; but in rare cases I do if I feel that fun would be ruined otherwise.

Yeah, I know. Lots of coincidences in his life story. A lot of (bad) luck to get him to the point of the Lord Soth we all know... His role in the books was cool; but his 'journey' there was/is far from believeable. LOLOLOLLIPOP

Yes, but Lord Soth is. HAHAHAHA!!!!

"he owes his shareholders" What shareholders?

"1) The orc manages to escape the PC." Not the only one. "2) Defeated, this orc returns to his tribe (no matter how long he waited), strolls into the camp and immediately begins spouting off lines to make a play for power." Nonsense. You make it seem like he walked into the camp one fine morning, and told the orcs to join him against the orc. It most certainly did not. It took time. "3) None of the orcs seem to question either the delay in the orc's return, nor his defeat." Sure they did. "4) The tribe more or less rolls over for a shaman who was not only defeated by a bunch of weak humans (an affront to Gruumsh), but then fled and hid (and even larger affront to Gruumsh)." No, they don't roll over. The humans weren't weak. The tribe knows this 'cause a few of the other orcs that escpaed had already gone back, and reported what happen. Other orcs were sent to 'pnish the measily' humans... and, the PCs took care of them. So, they orcs knew they weren't 'measily humans'; but worthy (still stinky humans though) warriors. As for Gruumish, you are correct. He was absolutely furious with the failure of running away, and he was appropriately punished (stripped of spells for awhile, and demands of sacrifice, and given one more chance to prove himself) ...hence another reason why Urgthu was motivated to avenge himself against the PCs. Tjis is also why he wanted the chief to attack the human village where it was known by that time (through scouts) that the PCs were at. "As a player this orc wouldn't seem like a big bad, at all, and more of the comedic relief with 9-lives." They would know he took over the orc tribe (as before then it was thought the orc chief was an overly large warrior), that eh threatened their home, threatened innocents (party was good/neutral), actually killed a friend (a PC as well as a few npcs), charmed one of them and made him betray his party, etc. So.. no.. they didn't view him as comedic relief. He's no Deekin. "It's all very convenient, and hardly convincing." Oh please. Like your example of Lord Soth wasn't as 'convinent'. Le'ts not mention some of the most popular CRPG villains like Irenicus, The Master, Sephiroth, and the list goes. Just as often times it takes luck and convience as well as skill to create a hero (ie. farmboy becames hero who saves the world! tm); some of the best villains are made through skill, happenstance, and luck. We could go back and forth like this. You making silly comments, and me refuting them all night if you wish. It's all good fun. All I need to know is the players were into it, and at least one person here has commented that he likes it. Of course, the scenario isn't perfect; but ah well. That's the way the cookie crumbles. "Leaders that lead simply because they are bigger than the other people don't maintain power that effectively." Exactly. "It would seem more plausible for your chieftan, given he's not very smart, to not exercise any restraint in wanting to kill humans. Especially when, psychologically, he's been reinforced that displaying his might (killing the previous chieftan) has allotted him more power." He's dumb and violent; but he's not suicidal. In his mind, his tribe had suffered quyite a few losses. His plan was to 'grow' more warriors either by dominating other orc tribes or by making them then attacking the village. There's also the fact he wanted to deal with the PCs first since they had been a thorn on his (and his tribe's side for a while by then) And, in the past, the more bloodthirsty member sof the tribe *did* challenmge them.. they all got their necks snapped or chopped off... His hold on power was almost always wobbily...

"Since I'm an evil critic, the big guffah is the ease of which the guards seemed to have been successfully coerced." Heh.. from the guards' pserpective , and them being big, dumb violent orcs; they just want to kill stuff. The chief, menahwile, after a few setbacks didn't feel the risk of attacking the humans was worth it. As always, he flet that because he was simply the biggest (physically) orc in the village (afterall, that's how he became chief in the first place by cutting the head off his predeccessor) that his word would be law. And, it was... until the shaman started playing mind games. You know, by saying things like 'Gruumish would want us to destory the humans'... which, of course, with Gruumish is true. The other shamans didn't intervere in the struggle as the intrigue between the two is what their god wants - the strong shall rule. And, when the fight started, the chief was arrogant in his superiority over the snotty nosed 'spell flinger'... And, the story goes on. Of course, asf ar as the campaign itself went this was background stuff that the PCs didn't know much about... "is orc's rise to power seems forced, excessively forced. Supernaturally forced. Deus ex." No. Gruumish did not intervere. It was a DM chocie, of course, if that's what you mean by 'supernatural'. In that regard, everything dealing with a campign is supernaturally forced by the Dm since the Dm ultimately decides this stuff.

"How did he wrestle power from the orc chieftain? What was his name? He is hardly even believable as a character in what you've posted, let alone as a BB. This orc gets chased off like a little girl in a plaid skirt (hawt!), returns to his tribe and somehow, magically, rises to power? Seems pretty far-fetched or supernatural to me." Because to cover all that would take far longer than a simple post. The campiagn focused on him for a good 6 months or so of solid playing. The PCs originally encountered these orcs at around level 5.... they eventually succeeded in winning at level 10, and not without cost. He 'wrestled' power from the chieftain the old fashion way - he showed the rest of the tribe how weak he was. And, he didn't return to said tribe right away. The reasonw hy he ran away because like I said, the battle and his eventual fleeing changed him and his outlook. Before then, the orc (whose name was Urgthu; yeah yeah; make fun of the name; big whopop; it's a friggin' orc name afterall). He gained power, and killed the chieftain after he wanted the chieft to attack the village. Cheif thought it was too suicidal to attack the human village so ordered Urgthu's death. of course, by this time, U had infiltrated the guards with word of the chief being a coward for not daring attack the humans so the guards did not move). U then proceeded to challenge the chief to a duel which is what occurs. He won by showing who had the real power - the shaman of Gruumish with a simple hold person spell. LOLOLLIPOP This, btw, is from memory since this was awhile back. As for it being far feteched... surely no far fecthed than say your example of Lord Soth. Or the mioghty hero who once was a simple farmboy. LOLOLOLLIPOP "Acting is role-roleplaying." A different kind of role-playing, yes. Not the kind that D&D should be unless you play dress up.

http://www.nhl.com/news/2006/04/270024.html

The one where choices matter the most (as long as the story itself along with characters) were actually interetsing and I cared about them.

Uhuh. If you say so. It's not my fault that you feel that all uber bosses should be the 3rd grandson of Hades with the power to move mountains and to controlthe armies of BOTH heaven and hell. HAHAH! What the players liked about this orc shaman is that he wans't really special, and in fact, in a way they created him. He went from your typical orc shamn who was simply happy bowing to his god (Gruumish) and kissing his cheiftain's ass to someone who wanted more which eventually included taking power from the chieftain forcefully (as orcs are wont to deal) and wrecking havoc on the PCs and their chosaen home village. Like any good big boss. But, the bottom line, he didn't cheat. He didn't have any special powers beyond what the shaman (cleric) class gave him. But, he did have a personality, and the will to dominate others including (temporarily) a PC (through his clerical magics). He also had perosnality which the players also liked instead of being some silly over powered munchkin.

Thanks.

"That reeks of lame. "The orc escaped." "What? How? I shoot him." "You can't. He, like, ducked behind the rock or something and then disappeared into a cave." "We follow him!" "Can't the cave has collapsed..." Where the heck did I post that i ever did anything remotely liek that? The orc shaman escaped because a bunch of 'typical' orcs tried to abush the party. It was obviously quick that the orcs were no match for the PCs so they started to run randomly. The PCs as PCs are wont to do started chasing them down. However, a few orcs including the shaman managed to evade capture. This orc eventually gathered the survivors together and began plotting his reveneg. He then started hounding the players with random attacks by his cohorts while he gained power for the eventual confrontation. When they finally confronted him again, the players relaized he wans't going to run away this time. ... In fact, they did as he fought them on his terms.. Good stuff. R00fles!

"cut out all the tangential side-quests and you not really gots a crpg anymore

"What if a PC gets killed because of a completely incidental roll that wasn't precipited by any sort of player stupidity?" Luck stinks. It's a part of playing a game. What part of role-playing GAME did you miss? Do you allow people to reroll (ie. cheat) in yahztee? That said, if it happens way too much ala multiple time sin one session then I'll back off as that *ruin* a player's fun in no time if they repeatedly die through no fualt of their own. But, that's the exception to the rule. "It's hard to romanticize a villain you could simply live next door too." Right. Because we all have mages and orc shamans (from my examples) living next door to us. LOLOLOLOLLIPOP We're talking fantasy here. By default, they have 'supernatural powers' so they shouldn't need unfair advantages beyond that. In fact, my players will scream bloody murder at me if I made a habit of issuing super pwoers they have no access to to UBB. Once,a nd awhile is acceptable but as a matter of practice. No way, Jose. HELLO!?!

"What if the rules get in the way of said role-playing/experience?" Why would they? That's why a DM has the right... no, the obligation... to change rules if they should intervere.. that's completely different than 'cheating' or 'cooking the dice'. And, all changes should be logical. ie. A human shouldn't be given the ability to fly just because he's an uber boss and to give an unfair advantage. That said, if you really want that npc to have flying as an ability there are multiple ways to do it fairly within the rulez... "If you don't give TBB some sort of "special" combat ability, you shouldn't bother pitting the player against them. They will feel unfulfilled and bored." Absolutely false with no basis in fact. Espicially dealing with D&D. Have an enemy mage follow the rules, and give him a good personality, and he can *easily* be a very memorable villain. Heck, I had one orc shaman who became a very hated (in a good way) enemy of my player ssimply because he scaped an onslaught by them and came back with a vengenace (and all legit, and noc hetaing or unfair advantage given to him).