GreasyDogMeat

No atmosphere!? Are you kidding? F3 feels like I've been dropped into the 2d landscapes from the original games. The detail is fantastic and one of the high points. What Bethesda fanboys? Most folks here are Bioware/Obsidian/Black-Isle rpg style fans. Some of us (me anyway) think Bethesda has managed to combine their open world design with the roleplaying options of the classic RPGs released from the developers I mentioned.

Can be used to create an unarmed glove weapon, like brass knuckles only cooler. Keep/store at least one. Don't recall where I found the schematics for it though.

The Paladin has been nothing but a huge help for me as long as I keep her well stocked with ammo. She's also great as a pack mule to carry any heavy armor or items I find. I did regret giving her a missile launcher though as she's not too discriminating when it comes to range and... ahem... if a friendly happens to be next to the enemy. She's very funny when armed with it though... 'Let's see him dodge THIS!'. Can just imagine the chaos if I gave her the Fat Man launcher.

In many ways Fallout 3 is what I've been craving from an RPG for a long time. The wide open explorable world of Oblivion, except with decent RPG rules, actual roleplaying choices, decent writing and a combat system that is entertaining.

Wrestling match!? No wonder I felt violated. I found the alien blaster! Was wandering the northern-western areas and ran into some sort of 'Theta Distress Signal' which lead to a crashed alien ship. The alien blaster is #*$#ing awesome. Oh, I also shot down a vertibird with a single shot from my laser rifle which must have either been a glitch, or the chopper had received previous damage. Was running through a canyon, heard it coming, looked straight up took a shot and had shrapnel rain down from the sky. Was awesome...

I always charged for it and I received the 'Last, Best Hope for Humanity' status.

What can I say? I like a good argument. Its going no where fast though. Might as well be arguing over religion or politics. Random isn't going to change my mind that it was bad use of the karma system and I'm not going to change his mind about it. I've moved on quite a ways and all this arguing is doing is reminding me of a quest I'd like to forget.

-Well, we basically agree on the karma system then. Just said what I said in a different manner. -No, I haven't tried killing everyone to see the result, just every character that has made an evil request of me, diplomatic possibility or not, and Roy has been the only one so far to pass out negative karma. -Doc Morbid was actually F1. There were guides up that used to explain what actions would and wouldn't result in karma gains/losses. -I shot Roy because, from his own words, he sounded like too much of a threat. I'm sorry if that is not considered roleplaying in your book. The game failed to take into account possible reasoning for taking out Roy besides simply doing it as part of the hit. I did NOT metagame shoot him. At least not the first time. -I never claimed their bigotry as a whole was justified. It was ignorance from living with Tenpenny and his personal opinions in part. Many of them are nothing more than innocent victims. Maybe you didn't actually try the diplomatic solution, but a good number of them were more than willing to realize their prejudices were unfounded and willing to try living with the ghouls. The doctor, an older lady and the adventurer to name a few. How were they not innocent victims? Their prejudices were no worse than Roy's who wanted every last one of them out, even the 'enlightened' humans, confirmed by him having everyone killed when he moves in. Even if it ended up being futile, I would have liked to have seen an option to tell the ghouls about underworld, or an option to say that all of Roy's ghouls could move in except him. Would have been awesome to see his response. -Honestly, I don't see how 'evil person asks player to commit evil deed: player kills evil person and earns negative karma' is not 'whack'. There is another very similar situation where a ghoul in underworld asks you to kill 'ghoul bigots' when in reality he wants them dead because of a key they hold. As a player, you are able to get the keys without killing anyone and still complete the quest. That and you can assassinate this ghoul and not earn negative karma despite his request being a bit less evil than releasing feral ghouls on a tower full of inhabitants.

Thing is, while it is true that the player may not know that Roy is planning to kill no matter what, the karma system should, just as you get negative karma for stealing when it would be impossible for anyone to realize it. My first instinct (which turned out to be correct) was that he was evil and needed to be put down and unlike every other game in the series and every other quest in Fallout 3 the karma system judged his death as an evil act on my part, despite many other evil characters having alternate non-violent solutions. Its a massive deviation from the karma norm. Karma isn't supposed to be a system that judges you on being able to handle an evil character with an alternate non-aggressive means. The karma system isn't supposed to require 'physical proof'. Its why you can get positive Karma for offing Doc Morbid without evidence of his 'human meat' in the basement and why you can walk right up to Tenpenny and blast him. You are treating the karma system as if it is the judicial system when it is more of a 'mystical' system. Also, yes I actually do consider Roy significantly more evil than those who hire you to kill him and the other ghouls. Many of the inhabitants are (correctly it turns out) motivated by fear of the ghouls, or a (correct) fear that they may get violent over the repeated refusal of allowing them to live in the tower. Instead of moving on and leaving the tower to the inhabitants, Roy is only interested in murder and is veiling that lust for blood behind an excuse of being persecuted. Also, the hit-job against the ghouls is just 3 ghouls. The assault on the tower is well over 30 men, women and possibly children. Again, I have no problem with a negative karma for killing the two ghoul followers of Roy. Its Roy and his relation to the karma system that is whack. About the only way I can rationalize a negative karma hit for Roy is if the game assumes the player is killing him out of bigotry, which certainly wasn't the way I was roleplaying the game.

All I can say is: I disagree. Unless you really think the entire series has been 'karma broken' when it comes to killing an evil character who has asked you to murder someone but then you turn around and kill the thug/mafia guy/plain old killer who made the request. Also, I never said I KNEW that Roy would end up killing everyone in the tower, just that the game was leading me along as if it was the only 'good' solution and that it really isn't any kind of surprise when he ends up killing everyone. That is what this quest completely lacks, subtlety. Doesn't take a psychic to realize he was up to no good when listening to him, AND asking you to do his dirty work. In that sense the voice actor did a great job. I didn't get a hint of compassion from him. You can argue real world morality all you like, but in the Fallout 'universe', a character asking you to perform an evil deed, even with no evidence of prior evil deeds (and seriously, how many of the villains sit down and explain how many terrible things they've done before asking you to perform this particular deed) is pretty much always fair game. I can just imagine what you would need to feel happy killing one of the bad guys. "Hmm, why yes let me see, back in 67' I torched a Children of the Cathedral church. Then in 68 I captured about 15 slaves for the slavers." Player: "Ok, yeah you will definitely qualify for lots of positive karma for me". F1 may have left me feeling manipulated, but in a good way. This quest just made me feel like a fool for following the game's suddenly twisted karma system. Not only that but the damn quest had numerous bugs. I'm just glad it is over with and I've moved on to other quests.

I'm definitely interested in trying some perks I didn't choose the first time around like Mysterious Stranger and Animal Friend. I played a doctor/scientist character that was proficient in energy weapons but had a very low charisma and melee/unarmed skills. I took Explorer for my 20th level perk and I've been hunting down all the locations I missed before I continue on with the final parts of the main quest.

Uh, no captain sarcasm. My disappointment stems from the quest being 'karma broken'. I only mention the ability to use the black widow perk to further point out the evilness of Roy, where the only way to prevent what he does is with a bullet to his brain, while many of the other villains in the game like Tenpenny and Mr. Burke who (according to the karma system are more evil) can be talked out of their evil deeds with certain perks or skills. I understand the point of the quest. The problem is, you can't have somebody in their 'muahaha I'm uber evil and I eat babies' speech tell you he's going to eat babies, but he just needs you to unlock the gate to the carriages and then pass out negative karma for blasting the evil baby eater. Now, if said baby eater said he wanted to check on the babies and asked you politely to unlock the gate for him then went in and ate said babies, THAT would be clever twist and a nice lesson about sometimes you can't trust people and the world sucks etc. As for Burke, the Fallout series has had a few examples of unlikable people who could be killed in a shoot out with no ill consequences from the townsfolk. Doc Morbid in Junktown, the moneylender in the Hub and a number of others. I've always taken it as 'wasteland justice' where the law was willing to look the other way for getting rid of the shady elements. Honestly, listening to Roy's plan I didn't get ANY vibe of it just being the idle talk of a persecuted ghoul who was willing to settle for a diplomatic solution. The end of Fallout 1 was a rather similar twist, but it was infinitely better than this F3 quest. It would be like the Overseer telling you, at the very start of the game during the opening cutscene, Nothing wrong with the message, its in the delivery.

1-Well, it seemed fairly obvious to me that Roy would have done it had the means been on his side of the gate. 2-Its likely the only reason Burke was 'arrested' was because it was the player's word against his. If you immediately draw your weapon and blow Burke's head off after he makes his proposition you don't get in trouble and you get positive karma. Roy was ready for the invasion and it was just a matter of figuring out how to get the gate open (where the player comes in), just as Burke needed an outsider to get close to the bomb. I really don't see Roy as being massively different. The situations seem very similar to me. 3-First time I talked with Roy I actually did shoot him, but then I saw the negative karma and assumed there must be a 'better' way to handle the situation. Reloaded and tried the diplomatic approach which had an even worse outcome to wiping the ghouls out (despite the karma system telling me otherwise). Reloaded again and went with my original instinct: shoot em' in the head and live with the karma consequences. He might be slightly less of an obvious villain than Burke, but hardly by much. Also, female characters CAN talk Burke out of blowing the town up by using the Black Widow perk.

Oh... in that case I agree 100%. As for Roy being innocent at the point he asks for your help in his scheme, I disagree. If you were to transplant that situation to modern times, turn the player into an undercover cop, Roy into a mob boss and the crime into a 'hit' instead of unleashing ghouls on a tower I believe what he said would be enough for an arrest. Being the wasteland and wasteland justice being what it is... Its similar to how Burke is 'arrested' when you run and squeal to the sheriff about him wanting to blow up Megaton. Its not that I can't deal with a 'bad' ending... its that all the evidence was there for a negative ending and the ridiculousness of receiving negative karma for putting down the ghoul who was planning it was lame. Now, if Roy had hid his true intentions and simply made a case that life in the wasteland sucks and that they desperately needed shelter and asked for the player to talk to Tenpenny and work something out and he still ended up killing the inhabitants, THAT would be an ironic outcome to the quest. As it is, Roy comes off immediately as a psycho. I didn't feel Roy deserved to move in to the tower, but I felt sorry for his two followers and bothered to convince the tower inhabitants of letting the ghouls stay.

You could make that same argument for every single villain in the game. Why do I get positive karma for killing Tenpenny? Maybe it would have been possible to talk to him and convince him of the error of his ways. I guess you shouldn't receive positive karma for killing anyone because there MIGHT have been an alternate solution. Roy had a horrendous fate planned for every single person in Tenpenny Towers, devoured alive by feral ghouls. Its quite possible there may have even been children in Tenpenny Towers that would be eaten alive as well (which Bethesda conveniently removed from the tower to make slaughtering the tower inhabitants less morally reprehensible). Its nothing more than ridiculous butchering of the karma system to pass out negative karma for killing Roy but positive karma for killing Tenpenny. Even if the player does go the extra mile to try and smooth things over between the two groups Roy still ends up murdering Tenpenny and eventually all the human inhabitants. While I reloaded at this point to kill the bastard Roy, I probably would have received negative karma for killing the murderous ghouls who had now taken over the tower. I don't mind the irony of the situation. What I do mind is the asinine use of the karma system to reward a player who kills seemingly more open minded bastard while punishing a player who kills an even more wicked bastard who doesn't even hide his evil intentions. Roy was in no way some random victim. He makes his intentions clear and plans on slaughtering everyone in the tower whether you help him or not. The only thing talking things over accomplishes is making it easier for Roy to infiltrate the tower and murder it's inhabitants. Might as well also receive negative karma for shooting a raider about to kill a wastelander because you attack the raider before he had a chance to pull the trigger and kill the wastelander. Maybe he wasn't REALLY going to shoot that wastelander.

I ended up killing the cannibals and I didn't receive negative karma. If the cannibals confront you and attack you for investigating what goes on in their shed/basement then you SHOULDN'T (and I didn't) receive negative karma, however if you attack them first without finding out what goes on in their shed/basement then yes you will (and I think should) receive negative karma. The Tenpenny Tower quest really bugged me though. Absolutely no excuse for receiving negative karma for killing the psycho ghoul leader Roy. He outright told me his plan of unleashing feral ghouls on the tower and asked me for help. I can perfectly understand receiving negative karma for attacking and killing his two followers, especially his girlfriend ghoul who seemed rather sweet and naive. Him though, he was as evil as evil gets. It was incredibly ironic that even though Tenpenny IS a bastard, he was more open minded about the ghouls, willing to let them live in the tower if you could convince certain citizens of the tower to agree with letting the ghouls move in. That quest put a real sour taste in my mouth, but it was quickly washed away, so to speak, by other quests. That and I assassinated another evil ghoul living in Underworld in a clever fashion and didn't receive any negative karma for him. Even got a finger to take back to the Regulators, which I should have also found on Roy's body.

Stealthboys are great for pick pocketing. I've run into a few situations where I've wanted to steal a key or some cool weapon off someone, but had a skill level that was too low and the stealthboy helped me greatly. I'm rather pleased with the balance of the game. I've been level 20 for some time now and I run into certain enemies that I still have to be careful about. I also run into the weaker Raiders and I can stomp them into mincemeat.

Found a TON of stealthboys in

I never once gave scrap for free in Megaton and I've reached 'Last, Best Hope for Humanity'. I think its a combination of what you have done and how high of a level you are. Have you by chance reached level 20?

I've found two, not including people like Jericho in Megaton who wont join me because my Karma is too high. If you want to find a fairly bad-ass companion and your karma is good Also, at the Museum of History

Oh, a warning about Rivet City if you are there for a side mission like Moira's quest. If you visit the science lab don't talk to Li the head science lady unless you have come to the ship for a main story quest. I went to Rivet City for Moira's Rivet City's history quest before completing a certain main quest. Li ended up spoiling some of the main story, talking as if I had done things I hadn't.

Uh, Rivet City IS the huge ship. Its an old aircraft carrier that people are using as a city to live in. Inside Rivet City are numerous wall mounted signs that tell you where the various shops and locations of importance are. Weatherly Hotel is clearly marked on the signs. It is a big and confusing ship, but the Weatherly Hotel isn't hard to find if you follow the signs. I'm guess you haven't actually entered the huge ship yet. You need to go up to the top of the structure by the water and use an intercom which will swing a bridge over and allow you to enter the city proper.

Make sure to follow the signs on the ship. They lead right to the hotel. There is a robot who runs the place, she can usually be found in the back room or wandering around the ship.

I liked that quest a lot, if not immediately. I was pretty shocked to find out how things can turn out with that, but thinking about it later, I came to realize why it's one of the best quests I've seen so far. Hmm...