draego

i am pretty sure you can change your class to anything you want.

I also am not averse to this change either and i think its interesting. I believe that is what we are arguing for more diversity it just so happens that the decision to limit quality enchantments will drastically curb that.

This sounds pretty horrible to me. I absolutely hate having spent talent points only to find that I'll get no use from them later. If Deadfire has a respec function then, in this situation, I would simply respec and pick the modal for the pollaxe. But they have announced that you get multiple weapon specializations and that they only compete with other weapon specializations. So no matter what you get redundant weapon talents. That change is why I think that mapped out builds won't be quite so hurt. For instance in PoE if I want a sword and shield barbarian that inflicts disorienting I can choose between the early game spear or the late game hammer. The hammer is better IMO because I can get zero recovery with speed pretty easily (it has 1 extra enchant). So now I have two options: I can hold off weapon focus and grab the spear for the effect, or get early focus and use a different weapon (or have a wasted talent). With the new system I can grab both focuses with little/no downside and use both to their full effectiveness. Thats what I mean by fluid builds and that is why I dont think preplanned builda will hurt too much - because the new system drastically opens up weapon possibilities. This system would allow high perception builds to use strikehard and resolution early, then godspalunker and purgatory late etc. They are closing one door but I think they are opening quite a few more. Im not sure about the no downside part if you pick a weapon specialization talent you are picking a talent instead of some other talent. So there is a downside. Unless i misunstand what specialization means i thought they were replacing 6 weapon focuses with 20 different weapon specialization (not looking at the total number of weapon types). So i dont see why anyone would pick more than one maybe two because you dont get returns from picking talents you dont use.

I also use my ranger as a flanking single target dps if possible. You can also go sword and board which and on potd no one would blame you, as Boeroer like to point out, can be fine off tank and even nice dps build with Badgradr's Barricade (nice proc effect) and since you are flanking enemies, have good starting accuracy, stunning shots and maybe stuck affect with ranger talent you can proc lots of crits. I like rangers diversity of builds so ranged, tanks, melee. I know others can do it as well or better but love me some rangers. This is also why i didnt like the first subclass for ranger in POE2. not having my pet would suck but there will be two other subclasses. Here is to hoping one of them is either melee or pet oriented or both if possible.

I don't understand that. Isn't there actually less choice? How can there be more choice if you take away options? When you are preparing for a race and have the following options: a) repair and pimp your old but beloved red racing car (maybe it's not as fast and nippy as a new one, but you know it inside out) b) get a new fancy green racing car (highest speed) c) get a new gorgeous blue racing car (best acceleration) Now you take away option a): b) get a new fancy green racing car c) get a new gorgeous blue racing car How is there more choice? Or why is the choice more meaningful? And I don't want to nag or something - I really don't understand what you guys mean with that. This might be pushing the metaphor, but here's how I see it: If revamped the red race car is the obvious choice for this racetrack. So if you allow the revamping there's effectively no choice as the red car is the best option. If you don't allow the revamping then you have to make a meaningful choice between all three cars. Maybe the you'll decide that even with the lack of top speed and acceleration, the investment of time and knowledge you've put into the red car will better than the other two. Maybe you'll decide against that. But at least you'll have a meaningful choice unlike if you allow the revamping. That's what I mean when I say that ceiling for enchantment will allow for meaningful choice. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me like there's a tension between having diversity of builds from gear selection and a diversity of gear from build selection. Just a thought I had. And i dont want to seem like i am dismissing your arguments. I am trying to understand. I think that their plan to take away the monster and lashing enchantment would satisfy your side of the argument for example there will be one flaming sword and not flaming lashes for any weapon and there will be one dragon slaying sword and not beast lashes for any weapons and I assume the same for coordinating , marking , wounding. So lets say my character likes swords and maybe one other weapon type and i put proficiencies in swords i doubt may people will use more than one or two weapon proficiencies. All i am asking for is that at the end of the game i can choose which property of all these properties works best for me in given circumstance. however this will not be possible if say the wounding, coordinating and flaming all drop early with no quality enchantment or fine enchantment because later on if say the dragon sword is legendary and the marking sword is superb at drop time then there will be no choice of which property to use. I will only use dragon slaying or marking thats it, accuracy and damage are to important to make any other choice. I think most people on here are just wanting the quality enchantment to keep up not all the other enchantment in poe1. also as others have mentioned you could also maybe combine late game enchantment like flaming marking sword to fix issue but as of now they seem to make clear enchantment will be uniques for the whole game sorry for repeating kinda what JerekKruger said heh was typing to slow and beat me to the punch

Not really needed imo. It's very easy to achieve that on your own with the help of your animal companion. Micro intesive, yes, but one of the main benefits for going into melee range as a ranger. The rest of your post is very valid. As for the animal companion (max dps): either wolf (single target dps) or stag (aoe dps) - the rest sucks. True story. Meaning what? Sometimes I feel like I don't understand flanking as well as I should, I thought it was totally based on targets engaging with enemy. Flanked status is applied to enemy when you attack an enemy on the opposite side your companion or animal or summon is. So this takes you positioning either your main or animal in the right position to get the status affect against an enemy and since you have reasons as melee ranger to stick together like stalkers link and torc and defensive talents like Defensive Bond it makes since to attempt this. not to mention its a nice debuff. Cipher has power to basically make every enemies have flanked status without having to position. Also flaking triggers your animal companions sneak attack talent Merciless Companion. So this makes your build more micro intensive even more than ranged ranger which is fun for me but not everyone.

Not really needed imo. It's very easy to achieve that on your own with the help of your animal companion. Micro intesive, yes, but one of the main benefits for going into melee range as a ranger. The rest of your post is very valid. I agree i usually go more micro intensive also but i like mixing up companions for their quest so trying to find some synergy but you are correct.

you eventually face the choice of synergy vs quality. And i think this is where the word choice looses its meaning and where i dont understand the argument. What you call choice i call forced selection. if you find weapon that synergizes with your build and later you find weapons whose quality way outclasses your first weapon when facing hard monsters there is no choice you will go with quality first. Also this change sets up arbitrary drops because we know as of right now that weapons will be so unique that the property will only occur once. So when certain properties synergize (could be multiple for example i like for my melee ranger marking, coordinating and wounding) with your build and all those properties could be dropped early and oh well there goes your build (This could happen easily if say my ranger like maces and sabres and if the said properties only occur on those weapons on early drops especially if i use proficiencies in those). If you allow the quality enchantment all the way for one weapon or if you replicate the properites to other weapons later then the devs dont have to worry screwing users build. This is what choice means. I look at weapons 1, 2, and 3 and can choice any one of them. looking at weapons 1 2 and 3 and having to take 3 because the quality is so good as to make the other weapons near useless against later enemies is not choice. JerekKruger - I actually think the way they are going forces you to metagame more. The more organic way would be to allow quality enchantment upgrade because you are punished less for not finding the right end game weapons

Well i generally go wolf best offensive animal. I know boring but from what i understand any animal but lion and bear can be used effectively in their own way. It depends on what your are doing but my go to companions are Pallegina (for coordinating attacks and i give her marking weapon if i am roleplaying certain scenarios). Hiravias for cc and dots. Maneha with tidefall for dot. I believe Kana Rua offensive chants count as dots but i generally dont keep him for the whole game but can be powerful and even tanky if you need (this is not a mechanic issue but a roleplaying one for me). Grieving Mother for flanking spell (if going with heavy survival skill) and character buff for either main or animal she may have a dot power alos. i give either her or sometimes kana or even Hiravias if needed persistence bow for more dots. I generally havent played a tidefall ranger because i never really liked greatsword (only an asthetic issue for me). For me i like dual wielding so later in game drawn in spring is nice or i ran a poleaxe ranger with the marking poleaxe and the dozens talent to buff pet accuracy and mine at same time and there is a morning star that has wounding i never tried that. I am sure i am missing stuff but generally if i am not chanting with Kana Rua and i generally dont (again this is not a mechanic issue but roleplaying aesthetic because once i am done with his quest i like to finish others) i am looking for dot effects to make my pets Predator's Sense hit. I look to get talents to boost my pet and survival skill can boost your flanking damage and accuracy if fight to hard. Durance is nice for lots of parties because he can buff you or your pet or both. Aloth i go cc spells to help keep you ranger and pet from getting attacked. I actually end up playing with every character to some extent. I like to try a lot of mixing and matching and i like to finish their quests. The least used companions for me are Zahua and Devil of Caroc. I dont like monks ( i know its sacrilege Boeroer) and devil because i am the flanking single target dps guy i dont want to share roles. Its sad because when i run a ranger i dont generally take Sagani but making her bow ranger with you melee ranger would work but it depends on how much micro you want to do. I like microing my pet and main but having to do two rangers seems a bit much for even me.

Yes stunning shots works in melee. Its been that way for a while now. My favorite builds are melee rangers and stunning shots is great.

I don't understand that. Isn't there actually less choice? How can there be more choice if you take away options? . . . . How is there more choice? Or why is the choice more meaningful? And I don't want to nag or something - I really don't understand what you guys mean with that. Well, PoE 1 had a design goal of no magic items found later being clearly superior to ones found earlier. Everything was supposed to be at least slightly different. This led to LOTS of variety in the itemization which was great, but people didn't get to replace Sword +1 with Sword +2 and then with Sword +3 etc and people expect that progression in an RPG (especially if people didn't mess with enchanting, which is a lot of first time players). IF you remove that design goal and allow overlapping "clearly better" weapons, and ALSO if you simultaneously add a lot of (Sword +2 with X) and (Sword +2 with Y) or even (Sword +3 with X + B) or (Sword +3 with Y +A), then you might be increasing player choice and variety. And if you do that, then it makes sense to cut off upgrading lower-level gear after a certain point (because you're probably missing some better piece of new gear that you should be upgrading instead). But in that scenario cutting off upgrades of low-level gear is more a policy side effect of revamping your itemization generally after you've added lots more high level options. Otherwise, as you say, you're just cutting off player options to no purpose. it's an itemization and loot issue at core, not really an enchanting one. Your right but they already stated they are going to limit itemization if i understand you terminology. So one flaming sword and one dragon slaying sword the entire game there will be no other weapon with that property. So you better hope your idea of a build doesnt get stuck with an early weapon drop. i agree though if that was not the case then it wouldnt be such a big deal. I would still prefer they allow quality enchantment to "(Sword +2 with X) and (Sword +2 with Y) or even (Sword +3 with X + B) or (Sword +3 with Y +A)," because then you wouldn't have to drop a million swords everywhere but what you are saying would still be preferable to what they plan to do because if Y was flaming and you wanted to use flaming then you would have choices and not just one sword, however this wouldn't solve the person looking for weapons and armor to use based on aesthetics also since the original Sword +2 with X could be the best looking sword as well.

Are we sure that an NPC falling in combat is a requirement to gain an injury? I only ask because it isn't that way in Tyranny. You only had to lose a good bit of health. That said, it not requiring falling in combat made it a bit muddled and confusing in tyranny. So, I hope it does require losing all health to gain the injury status. Anyway... I like the old system, but I am neither here nor there about the change. I personally think an injury system will likely be just as confusing to the players that had issue with the health/endurance system. I guess we will see. I am pretty sure i heard Josh in one of the streams that the injury system is not like Tyranny. I believe you have to be knocked out to get an injury unlike Tyranny. I also felt like a failure when multiple characters got knocked out with injuries in POE1 and i would either reload or rest but i would rarely play with them unless i thought the injuries were not to consequential. But i would push my luck with the health bar going down. There were a few close calls with my health below my endurance during fights. It helped me ration my camping supplying in a fun way. Not sure how POE2 will feel. I have got to shake the perfectionist\completionist play through. It seems like i would enjoy the game more if it stopped caring about that stuff.

Yes i dont think anyone here want every weapon you find in the game to be upgradable to best quality we are just talking about one or two weapons and armor per play through being able to keep up. They dont have to let your entire party do this. I dont understand what is so hard to understand about this for the devs or why this would be such a big deal for other players.

Ye i think everyone on this thread that is apprehensive about this change would want V2 that is what i think most on here are saying.

Well maybe this will be my first foray into modding, the quality enchantment. Should have paid more attention to modding in POE1. I guess i will try some stuff in POE1 before POE2 comes out just in case this becomes as arbitrary as its looks like it will be. Here's to hoping somehow the level designers put the weapons i like and no one else toward the end of the game so my character can be designed they way i imagined. Screw you guys conception of your builds. It's every avatar for himself at this point Maybe Josh can make this easy for us and make this option configurable is some fashion from a config file or asset file but i prob not.

Im surprised even some of the rpgcodex post say they dont like the new change.

They did mention this will be in the game. i wonder if its automatic and not a button press. So outside combat weapons are just sheathed automatically

I think it's the latter, though obviously not with those specific combinations. Essentially I think he's saying each enchantment category will be able to be upgraded once, but I don't think he's saying weapons can only have a single enchantment category. I actually think so too but this just gets back to the original issue being discussed about this change on this post.

I am still confused is Josh saying you can't have a flaming - fine sword? Is it going to be one or the other? Or is it going to be a flaming finely accurate sword - a corrode superb saber - a freezing finely damaging axe and then within those weapons the special and the quality can only go up one? I cant tell i wish they would explain this better.

I feel like the metagaming issue could be one of the unintended consequences to this change. Player will have to metagame late game gear to not build their characters wrong like you mentioned Boeroer. This would indeed be bad design as Josh himself has mentioned multiple times.

No to derail this thread, but I would implore you to not spread misinformation about people involved in the 'walking toggle' thread'. No-one is boycotting Deadfire there. There isn't a single "do it, or else!" post in it. That thread's purpose is to raise awareness that to some of us, addition of that feature would be very important, and do it while the game is still in early enough development stage. Sure, some are more passionate about it than others, but we all love the game. Heck, pretty much all of us there are Deadfire backers. ----------- Speaking of enchantment... since someone raised the point that the new system appears to be forcing the quality to be the primary choice instead of properties due to the limitation of +1 tier step enchantment only, I feel the need to repeat that it will limit the appearance choices too. I hope we can avoid every character looking exactly the same at the end because de facto best equipment drops in the endgame. From the released in-game tidbits, it looks like we are getting some cool armor models with Deadfire. Not sure about weapons... but probably that too? Ye i know it was a little bad taste i was just picking and i did respond to someone in that thread that said the walk toggle was the last straw in whether to buy the new torment game. So ye i using hyperbole to exaggerate what that thread represented but i didnt pull it out of thin air. i was running with what the implication of that comment stated. But you are correct my statement did not represent what is stated in that thread

Why does the painful decision have to be between a cool property and a higher quality; why can't it be between one cool property and another cool property? How is the choice between weak or boring more desirable than the choice between cool and other-cool? You're presenting a false dichotomy. I'm assuming there will be lots of cool properties, if there's not then that's an entirely different problem. With the PoE1 enchantment system, quality is never a factor in choosing weapons. With the proposed system you'll have to both properties and quality when determine which equipment to use. I dont see how properties will be any deciding factor the first an only factor will be quality then maybe property. lets say you have 20 unique swords total in the game 10 early to mid and the rest later. The 10 early to mid will never be a consideration even if they have cool unique properties because the later 10 will have better quality to start and upgrade. And we know the 10 early swords will have unique never replicated properties. So if you find a flaming sword early you wont get one late. So this new system is making quality the primary choice not properties. It is having the opposite affect because it basically forces the player to trash most weapons simply based on quality before even considering properties. I'd argue the system is doing the exact opposite. But we still don't know enough about the system to be sure (maybe the accuracy delta between different quality levels will be smaller, maybe properties will have a much greater proportional effect, etc.). I trust Josh as a designer and believe he and the rest of the team will be able to make a enchantment system that's better than what we got in PoE. I agree if they make the accuracy and damage delta smaller or if they just remove it all together (i would prefer that to what they a have discussed already). Josh on his tumbler specifically acknowledged the use of quality enhancements but ye we do need more info. And i agree i trust Josh and them to make the system fun and fair. so this isnt like the walking toggle thing where if they dont do what i want i wont buy the game (i know that was probably only one guy so just kidding). this is just a discussion.

Ye we met a wizard subclass Helig the necromancer (at least i think it will be one) who also happened to be an Animanccer so these two idea i think are separate. Josh also said that animancer wont be a class i assume this applies to subclass. I think it is interesting though. I made a scientist wizard run in POE1 so it would be interesting to play up the science role.

Why does the painful decision have to be between a cool property and a higher quality; why can't it be between one cool property and another cool property? How is the choice between weak or boring more desirable than the choice between cool and other-cool? You're presenting a false dichotomy. I'm assuming there will be lots of cool properties, if there's not then that's an entirely different problem. With the PoE1 enchantment system, quality is never a factor in choosing weapons. With the proposed system you'll have to both properties and quality when determine which equipment to use. I dont see how properties will be any deciding factor the first an only factor will be quality then maybe property. lets say you have 20 unique swords total in the game 10 early to mid and the rest later. The 10 early to mid will never be a consideration even if they have cool unique properties because the later 10 will have better quality to start and upgrade. And we know the 10 early swords will have unique never replicated properties. So if you find a flaming sword early you wont get one late. This new system is making quality the primary choice not properties. It is having the opposite affect because it basically forces the player to trash most weapons simply based on quality before even considering properties.

The thing I don't understand is this: if you didn't like it, you didn't have to do it. Is the fact that it was possible really so bad that you want to remove that possibility for everyone who did like it? I didn't like it because it removed meaningful choice from gear selection. The only thing that mattered in gear selection was what the best secondary enchantments were. I never had to make choices like I did in BG2 about using a weapon with better +x bonus or a cool property. Maybe increased accuracy is too important in pillars but at least it'll now be a consideration unlike before. If I have ultimately choose a higher quality item over one with a cool property I want that to be a painful decision. What they are suggesting is the opposite of meaningful choices. I gave an example of early flaming sword no enhancement can only be move to fine and later corrode sword with superb enhancement can be made legendary. There is no choice in this circumstance you will take the corrode sword 100% of the time. This is what josh said would happen in tumbler you can only go one level above what you find the weapon. This is what is going to happen. Any early sword with any cool lash or ability will no longer be usable by the end of the game. I think its cool that they are taking away the lash and monster enchantment for weapons this makes it more unique but to take away the fine, superb stuff kills most of the choices by the end of the game.